Cult of Football Manager Posted March 13, 2021 Author Share Posted March 13, 2021 Ok so at the moment i'm testing my tweaks over two games which isn't a lot I know but I want to start a new save tonight! Here we have the United Game with the same tactic as the previous post the CCC are a bit of a con, 2 of those were from set pieces. We didn't control well didn't create much and got what we deserved. The LW was an issue again for the reasons mentioned last post. Test 2 Now this is what i've really wanted to test. It went pretty much as i expected. We got some lovely build up play from this and they couldn't stop us we had to make a mistake for them to win the ball and counter. As you might guess the times they did counter were.. a slight problem I mean one of the most fun games i've ever done. At 4-4 I changed the CB to a libero - S to see if Laporte would drop a little more both in and out of possession. He would sometimes still step to press a player out of possession and in possession they would just stick their ST on him and he would accept it. This seemed to help a little and we scored a great goal to go 5-4 up but then they got a free kick wide and scored from a set piece to make it 5-5. United A Going into this game before changing Laporte I thought I'd try a HB next to him We got lucky a few times 2 of their goals were disallowed so i decided to change to this we were doing ok but still the single centre back was a clear issue and the game ended like this For the last 10 minutes of the game I made one more switch to something I felt would let us be more stable but still keep the domination in possession We ended up scoring the winner like this and the reason for the CB's offset is it makes dias play like a RCB in a back 3 and allows him to go into the wider zones he doesn't move into when playing as an orthodox CB in a back 4. I'm going to do one more test of these two games with this sort of set up but maybe adjusting the LCDM role. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike_Cardinal Posted March 13, 2021 Share Posted March 13, 2021 (edited) That final setup looks interesting. I've been thinking about using an IWB and DM on one flank, with an IWB on the other side, to create something like City's 3-2 shape when playing out from the back this season, where one FB and the CBs form a back three, with the other FB and DM playing as a double pivot ahead of them. The idea is that although an IWB on Defend duty seems to move into the DM strata rather than forming a back three on FM, if there is a DM on their flank, then this doesn't happen as much. My hope is that the presence of the DM might mean the IWB tucks alongside the CBs more, but they might just play like a Full Back instead. But even then, the IWB would still have Hold Position and Sit Narrower instructions, which you had added as PIs for your Full Back on Support, so it might give the same result. What I hadn't considered is that the security offered by an IWB on Defend and a DM on a flank could then allow you to move your CB into the central slot. It would make natural sense to have that central player on Cover duty, as they sweep up behind and form the base of a triangle in possession. The knock-on benefit of this was that it could allow you greater security to play the other CB as an off-centre Stopper on the other side. The Stopper could help with aggressively defending any gaps in front of the defence on their flank, as your DM is off-centre, as well as pushing forwards more in possession. EDIT - That probably doesn't come across very clearly, but this is what I'm thinking visually: IWBsu CDst CDco N/A IWBde DMde Edited March 13, 2021 by Mike_Cardinal Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cult of Football Manager Posted March 13, 2021 Author Share Posted March 13, 2021 12 hours ago, Mike_Cardinal said: That final setup looks interesting. I've been thinking about using an IWB and DM on one flank, with an IWB on the other side, to create something like City's 3-2 shape when playing out from the back this season, where one FB and the CBs form a back three, with the other FB and DM playing as a double pivot ahead of them. The idea is that although an IWB on Defend duty seems to move into the DM strata rather than forming a back three on FM, if there is a DM on their flank, then this doesn't happen as much. My hope is that the presence of the DM might mean the IWB tucks alongside the CBs more, but they might just play like a Full Back instead. But even then, the IWB would still have Hold Position and Sit Narrower instructions, which you had added as PIs for your Full Back on Support, so it might give the same result. What I hadn't considered is that the security offered by an IWB on Defend and a DM on a flank could then allow you to move your CB into the central slot. It would make natural sense to have that central player on Cover duty, as they sweep up behind and form the base of a triangle in possession. The knock-on benefit of this was that it could allow you greater security to play the other CB as an off-centre Stopper on the other side. The Stopper could help with aggressively defending any gaps in front of the defence on their flank, as your DM is off-centre, as well as pushing forwards more in possession. EDIT - That probably doesn't come across very clearly, but this is what I'm thinking visually: IWBsu CDst CDco N/A IWBde DMde Great post! Yeah that would be interesting to see! Have you tried it yet on your save? That might help with the issue I had. When I test next I will have a look at that specifically. I just find the possession and overall success of my tactic drops when I start using either FB on defend duty I was going to post earlier before the game today has anyone tried just using 3 CB's? Something for me it would be lIke CD BPD CD IRWB. DM WM-A. WM-A AM-S SS-A F9-S Side CD - Stay Wider You could easily make loads of different combinations with the wide players and CM's. I want to try this but i've just started my new save! Would they still be able to defend as a back 4? And how much better are the side CB's at defending wide areas and travelling into them in possession? Although I played 3-5-2 as my main system in every FM from 15-19 I haven't used it at all this year Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cult of Football Manager Posted March 14, 2021 Author Share Posted March 14, 2021 (edited) Unfortunately a combination of a few things but mostly some work I had to do, I had to bin the new save for now. I decided to test out some of the new ideas in my original save at the start of season 3: 3 seasons in obviously my team is brilliant now but it could be a lot better. i've deliberately made an effort to try to use some of City's youngsters. Foden, Doyle & Harwood-Bellis & I brought back Eric Garcia. Here's my adjustment to my original tactic and the results. Will eventually get around to more screenshots but for now this will do. I'm just talking about the shape in the build up in this little bit I did test various things ahead of it too but this is just referencing the back 4 and the CDM Even keeping the IWB on A, & just moving the CDM to the left slot Created the desired shape in the build up lot better. His presence in the LCDM slot stops the IWB -S at LB from moving too far into the space but if it appears he can. In my testing having both IWB on support seemed to lose a little of our effectiveness on the right side. On IWB-A even though he and the RCM can sometimes get a little close, we get some good rotations and positional play from the 3 on the right hand side all taking turns in the other's roles and we've actually create & score a lot from that. With the IWB-S on the RB side I felt he sat too much like a static double pivot and rather then 3 combining in the wide and half space zones it was more 2 plus a retain option to switch back too which they often ignored anyway. This overall made the tactic a lot less effective and we were less threatening in creating and scoring chances. I did try the LB as IWB-D but felt not only were they not useful in possession but even in transition due to the defend duty would often sit back and allow players to run at us in that channel where before he would step and look to press and engage. This wasn't analysed in lots of depth however. We also didn't seem to do much better in passes completed, possession or chances created. We were just worse overall. I here haven't changed anything else in the tactic itself so i'm not saying this won't work i'm just saying it didn't appear to work that well for me with my current instructions, roles and responsibilities! Results so far. I've been doing lots of testing in certain games so the end of season stats might be a little off from the others when I complete the season I haven't touched anything from the Image of the tactic above since AFTER the Liverpool 6-5 game. That game in particular i got a little annoyed/angry and may have gone a little aggressive in the approach after we were losing and not dominating areas of the pitch or possession! Edited March 14, 2021 by Cult of Football Manager 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cristhianlinhatti Posted March 14, 2021 Share Posted March 14, 2021 Thank you @Cult of Football Manager ! This post make me wanna play FM again. In your opinion, what's the best formation? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cult of Football Manager Posted March 14, 2021 Author Share Posted March 14, 2021 2 hours ago, cristhianlinhatti said: Thank you @Cult of Football Manager ! This post make me wanna play FM again. In your opinion, what's the best formation? Define best? It's all a matter of preference really I think you can get really similar outcomes with different set ups to be honest. If you think there's like a ruler or line of all the variations and you're trying to get your marker in the middle. On one end you've got Hi success of the tactic and on the other is High realism and you're trying to get the marker as close to the middle for exactly both with perfection. Chances are this won't be "perfect" so it becomes a matter of what you're willing to trade off and what side of that line you'd prefer. Obviously if you have got it perfect then you've achieved the desired outcome for all of us! The way statistics are calculated in FM doesn't help with people's perception of what they're seeing I think and I include myself. If best to you is meaning results then my final tactic in Part 5 got me good results but there were one or two issues especially with the build up. If best is Realism what I have now is better for City 2020-2021 but it's a little inconsistent with possession and I don't really know why. Rather then constant 60% - 65% every game I now can get 70% - 75% or 55% - 59%. It's averaging out similar though. This is the most recent tactic. I will post up this in the OP I think. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KeepyourGuardiolaup Posted March 16, 2021 Share Posted March 16, 2021 Hi there! I've been reading this forums for a long time and the tactics section in particular. Over the past years, I've been reading threads that went into the direction of replicating Pep Guardiola's tactics, Total Football or simply producing possession tactics. So naturally, I read your thread with huge interest and tried to implement your tactics into FM. Now I've got to say, I'm using FMT17. Why? Simply because I've got an old laptop and haven't been able to afford a new computer, let alone FM21 so far. Plus I like the more streamlined gameplay of Football Manager Touch. Now I understand that match engines change between each game, as it develop along with football tactics. Still, the basic principles behind each tactic can be applied to any FM more or less, at least in my opinion. Granted, I probably couldn't do a good tactic with IWBs in FM15 for example, a game I put way more than 1000 hours into. If I recall correctly, FM15 didn't implement the IWB well enough, but FM17 definitely does. Anyway, what I wanted to achieve with my tactic, was the replicate what Pep does at City. Mostly the front five offensive line, with both central midfielders using the space between the central striker and the wingers. I took Hoffenheim, because I like managing in the Bundesliga - as a German, I naturally know that league well - and Hoffenheim always had some great talent in each game. I went with your formation involving the two wide midfielders, the shadow striker, the attacking midfielder and the false nine. Here's what I witnessed: Congestion in front of the opponent's box. Lots of it. I've had my players up front, but they kept passing the ball amongst themselves, with nobody attempting to make a run into the box. The opponent was also parking the bus. Though this is an issue possession-based teams faced in real life as well. Still, I have two support duties and three attacking duties, so in theory, someone should make a run. But the only threat from my team came from the wide midfielders, who more often than not missed their chances. I'm fairly suspectible to counter attacks. I've got some beatings like a 0-6 against Dortmund or a 0-5 against Olympiakos in the Europa League. Most of these goals came from counters. This also happened in real life. When a possessing team got stuck at the opponent's defense and lost their ball, they didn't have enough men at the back to stop the counter attack. But: If the tactics worked, it worked beautifully. I handed out some good beatings as well. Plus I often manage to get 60+% in possession, though that usually happened in matches where I lost. I originally didn't use your high pressing settings, because I didn't quite trust my defenders. Rightfully so, because they're not very good and I haven't been able to buy better ones yet. I guess this is the reason, Pep spent hundreds of millions on new central defenders, lol. Only in the recent matches in my save, I went "all in", when I hit a crisis. This boosted my possession numbers, but didn't increase penetration. I finished my first season in 6th, while I'm currently at 9th in my second season, which is in line with pre-season prediction. But I feel I could compete right for the Champions League positions, if I solved the issues with my tactics. Here's what I would do: I'd change the formation into a 4231, with one central midfielder drawn back into the DM position. I like your setup with the three at the back and the DM in front of them, so I'll keep that. Even though I found that the IWB close to the DM won't be able to fulfill his duties, because he seems to lack the room then. I don't mind this that much, because I can always change him into a FBd. The DM and the other IWB make a nice double pivot, which I reckon will be enough to recycle possession. The remaining central midfielder will be a BBM that gets further forward and moves into channels. While I want him to contribute in offense, I also want him to do his defensive part, so I have an additional player that can help fending off counters. I'll keep the F9/SS setup, so I've got to adjust the winger roles accordingly. I think I'll go with a Winger on support on one side and with either an Inside Forward or a Raumdeuter on the other. FM17 didn't have an inside forward yet, so maybe I'll have to build one myself from an inside forward. Now, defeats like the 0-6 against Dortmund make me angry. But at the same time, this gives my save some sort of realism. You can't just implement a Guardiola-like football at a mid-table Bundesliga team from the get go. It takes years for it to happen, if it does at all. But I'll see what I can achieve with a 4231. Your thread has been pretty inspiring and helpful, so I'll keep watching this one and see, how you can solve the remaining issues with your tactics. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cult of Football Manager Posted March 16, 2021 Author Share Posted March 16, 2021 (edited) 6 hours ago, KeepyourGuardiolaup said: Hi there! I've been reading this forums for a long time and the tactics section in particular. Over the past years, I've been reading threads that went into the direction of replicating Pep Guardiola's tactics, Total Football or simply producing possession tactics. So naturally, I read your thread with huge interest and tried to implement your tactics into FM. Now I've got to say, I'm using FMT17. Why? Simply because I've got an old laptop and haven't been able to afford a new computer, let alone FM21 so far. Plus I like the more streamlined gameplay of Football Manager Touch. Now I understand that match engines change between each game, as it develop along with football tactics. Still, the basic principles behind each tactic can be applied to any FM more or less, at least in my opinion. Granted, I probably couldn't do a good tactic with IWBs in FM15 for example, a game I put way more than 1000 hours into. If I recall correctly, FM15 didn't implement the IWB well enough, but FM17 definitely does. Anyway, what I wanted to achieve with my tactic, was the replicate what Pep does at City. Mostly the front five offensive line, with both central midfielders using the space between the central striker and the wingers. I took Hoffenheim, because I like managing in the Bundesliga - as a German, I naturally know that league well - and Hoffenheim always had some great talent in each game. I went with your formation involving the two wide midfielders, the shadow striker, the attacking midfielder and the false nine. Here's what I witnessed: Congestion in front of the opponent's box. Lots of it. I've had my players up front, but they kept passing the ball amongst themselves, with nobody attempting to make a run into the box. The opponent was also parking the bus. Though this is an issue possession-based teams faced in real life as well. Still, I have two support duties and three attacking duties, so in theory, someone should make a run. But the only threat from my team came from the wide midfielders, who more often than not missed their chances. I'm fairly suspectible to counter attacks. I've got some beatings like a 0-6 against Dortmund or a 0-5 against Olympiakos in the Europa League. Most of these goals came from counters. This also happened in real life. When a possessing team got stuck at the opponent's defense and lost their ball, they didn't have enough men at the back to stop the counter attack. But: If the tactics worked, it worked beautifully. I handed out some good beatings as well. Plus I often manage to get 60+% in possession, though that usually happened in matches where I lost. I originally didn't use your high pressing settings, because I didn't quite trust my defenders. Rightfully so, because they're not very good and I haven't been able to buy better ones yet. I guess this is the reason, Pep spent hundreds of millions on new central defenders, lol. Only in the recent matches in my save, I went "all in", when I hit a crisis. This boosted my possession numbers, but didn't increase penetration. I finished my first season in 6th, while I'm currently at 9th in my second season, which is in line with pre-season prediction. But I feel I could compete right for the Champions League positions, if I solved the issues with my tactics. Here's what I would do: I'd change the formation into a 4231, with one central midfielder drawn back into the DM position. I like your setup with the three at the back and the DM in front of them, so I'll keep that. Even though I found that the IWB close to the DM won't be able to fulfill his duties, because he seems to lack the room then. I don't mind this that much, because I can always change him into a FBd. The DM and the other IWB make a nice double pivot, which I reckon will be enough to recycle possession. The remaining central midfielder will be a BBM that gets further forward and moves into channels. While I want him to contribute in offense, I also want him to do his defensive part, so I have an additional player that can help fending off counters. I'll keep the F9/SS setup, so I've got to adjust the winger roles accordingly. I think I'll go with a Winger on support on one side and with either an Inside Forward or a Raumdeuter on the other. FM17 didn't have an inside forward yet, so maybe I'll have to build one myself from an inside forward. Now, defeats like the 0-6 against Dortmund make me angry. But at the same time, this gives my save some sort of realism. You can't just implement a Guardiola-like football at a mid-table Bundesliga team from the get go. It takes years for it to happen, if it does at all. But I'll see what I can achieve with a 4231. Your thread has been pretty inspiring and helpful, so I'll keep watching this one and see, how you can solve the remaining issues with your tactics. Hi @KeepyourGuardiolaup First of all thanks for the contribution! The match engine was very different in FM17 till now so it will be interesting in your tweaks if you manage to find a solution there and the cross over between the games! Also as for the laptop i played FM on a bad laptop for years! If you don't mind playing 2D i bet FM 21 will be fine it seems to run faster then FM 20 for me on my mac. Yeah the congestion is an issue and what makes it worse is the wide players it seems at a certain point look to get into "goalscoring" positions and go narrower as they get to the box. I mean pep's wingers especially on the opposite side to the ball do the same at times too but in the match engine the defence when that deep the back 4 stay extremely narrow and there's always space on the outside of it but I've struggled to keep the rest of the tactic as a replication and then exploit that at the same time. In my 3-5-2 days my wingbacks would hold the width well until the right moments and I did experiment in this tactic with using the wide players as CWB-A and it didn't go well haha! Yeah the possession being calculated the way it is can be very annoying because it's the first thing people look to when looking at a pep tactic and if you worked out in most of your games closer to how it's calculated in real life you would be an extra 2-3+ % up. So in my second season with City where i averaged 63% in would have been around the 66%-67% in real life. I'm basing that on picking 3 random games where i worked out what it would have been just using the passes completed formula and in every game I would have had 2%-4% more. I think i'm going to start a new save with Barcelona and test out some more things. I don't like the way the tactic looks in the tactics creator but it's what i've found to work the best in the match engine without touching ( or changing a lot ) the in possession philosophy in the team settings. I'm going to conclude my 3rd season with City also. We've won the league really and it's just a matter of if we win the champions league if we don't win it a second time in 3 years it will be a little disappointing but the cynics & comedians out there would probably say that's more realistic. I think long term the situation might be like a previous poster said in certain games maybe if the team are struggling to play out that you make adjustments based on that minor ones maybe but still adjustments that might be necessary. Yeah the AM-S is my least favourite part of it but any deeper with a IWB-A they seem to occupy the same spaces a lot. Maybe now i've moved over the CDM to the left slot it won't be as bad? BBM-S or CM-A i would look to maybe Mezzala-A too. If you drop CM down into BBM-S you could probably look again to moving the RW to the higher slot and making him a different role. That's how i started and it played some unreal football but not quite what I was looking for as the role i used left sterling too narrow too early and the other ones i tested resulted in too much dribbling and possession lost/ lack of patterns. That's exactly it you've nailed it. apart from Barcelona B Pep has only managed 3 top teams in the world who are all among the favourites every year to win their respective divisions. What he has done and the success he has got is fantastic and it's still an art to manage the top clubs and be successful. But even here we've seen pep's teams struggle in FM terms City 2016 - 2017 Barcelona 2011 - 2012. The second one might sound harsh but if you're 4 seasons into a save with Barca and you then finish 9 points below your biggest rivals for the title I can't imagine many FM players accepting that. Also regarding his teams they've taken the odd battering City Everton 0-4 2017, Munich Madrid 0-4 2014, City Barca 0-4 2016, City Leicester 2-5 This season ! ( I know it's only a 3 goal scoreline but just showing even this season they've had a game that went badly wrong ) I did a test earlier just with a Conference North team in England to see if it would work in FM with a lesser team. It still works really well ( 65% - 70% possession in the 4 games I tested but long balls over the top are an issue ) as long as you are one of the better teams in your league regardless of the league. What seems the most difficult is in your situation where you're a team that isn't a top team right from the start and it's not easy to change that in one window. In the lower leagues in England on FM it's ( Or it used to be ) very easy to changeover your squad and keep being one of the top play off teams on paper each year and storm through the leagues. For example In each edition of the game since FM15 using my 352 i would start in the lowest playable league in England and get promoted back to back all the way though to the premier league without much of an issue. But that tactic was also set up well to defend and hit teams on the counter which helped. That isn't a look at me comment by the way i'm just explaining that if you can be aggressive and ruthless in changing over your squad you can still be one of the better teams on paper that fit into your tactic & still make a tactic like this work even when you've just been promoted. Non promotion release clauses are the go to option to get players you can't afford to take less! I will be able to play some more FM today and should hopefully get a post up by tonight as I have the rest of the day off. Edited March 16, 2021 by Cult of Football Manager 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cult of Football Manager Posted March 17, 2021 Author Share Posted March 17, 2021 (edited) A proper update to come soon at the end of the season but I thought I'd post that I've started a new save with Boston in the National League South with the same tactic. I will continue to test the tactic to make it better and I will conclude the City save but i've wanted to do this and test it out in different leagues and saves. Here we will look to use the Original tactic ( City 2017-2019 with W build up ) and then look to progress at a later date. I wanted to see it work in other leagues and I still want to test it with Barcelona but this was more interesting to me. Here's my results so far and i fully expect them to drop as we've been rocking a little over the winter break but just recovered to this point. I will potentially tweak the tactic too throughout this save as it could go on for a while. Current Standings: Stats: Teams really struggle against us playing like this. We don't create as much as i'd like and not enough top quality chances but we also have the ball enough that they don't either. We got to the FA cup second round beating newport ( two divisions above ) but losing to WIgan ( 3 divisions above ) in the 94th Minute Alfreton A Newport A: ( Two leagues above ) Wigan H: ( Three Leagues Above ) Southport A: Fylde H: We aren't great on paper and there's a little more randomness to the tactic both for and against us at this level but it's ok. Unlike playing my 352 in previous editions I don't think this will be easy to get promoted back to back all the way through playing this way. The second season i predict if we go up will be hard due to the jump in level and there still being only ONE automatic place to go up. Whenever we go up again League two and One should be fairly straightforward and then I expect to have problems first season in the Championship and First season in the premier league. This tactic is prone to being beaten in one off cup games so I really don't want to have to go through the play offs! Edited March 17, 2021 by Cult of Football Manager Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cult of Football Manager Posted March 17, 2021 Author Share Posted March 17, 2021 (edited) Another thing just to share with everyone. when I made this thread I didn't check for other threads etc on Guardiola it didn't even cross my mind until after I made the first post. I today when browsing the forums found a thread created a few weeks before mine in the download section. I think it's worth a look for anyone here as he's managed to get extremely high possession in the right circumstances with lots of passes completed. Now I don't know if any of our desired patterns or shapes occur in his tactic but if you're taking elements from here and still falling short of where you want to be his tactic might be worth looking at and seeing how all of this could combine. I haven't seen him test it yet in the premier league like we did with City so it would be interesting to see how it will do there but in the leagues so far he's done really well. Another poster took his tactic with Braga and played out a season and finished with 64%. Now that might not seem like a massive jump from my second season 63% with City but if you look at the number of passes completed in some of the images the original poster shares, you can see they are some pretty impressive numbers. The Original poster also had higher than that I believe for his Average possession in a separate save. He also.. happened to start his save with a lower league English team.. in the National League North...and you guessed it with Boston United haha! I genuinely had no idea the thread was there it's just funny how similar our timings were with both the sort of tactic we're doing and the teams we picked. To conclude i'm saying it might be beneficial ( and It probably will if you're still banging your head against a brick wall ) & it would be definitely interesting if you're not happy with where you're at to see and compare what instructions roles and duties we both have & what are different. This would hopefully lead to then people reading in here to get the right combinations to get success in their save, the statistics they desire & the movements and patterns they want to see from the team. In one game he's got a team with over 700+ passes completed which is extremely impressive & one of the highest I think i've seen in FM 21. If the patterns we've spoke about here aren't in there what can we combine & tweak to get the best of both worlds? Two things that stand out are Very Narrow and Be more expressive that are very different. Also 0 Attack duties! Here's the Link and congratulations to @Panneton0for a great thread and tactic hopefully if people haven't seen your thread yet they will now. Edited March 17, 2021 by Cult of Football Manager 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reizero Posted March 22, 2021 Share Posted March 22, 2021 is your tactic available for download? your tactic look very promising and I hope I can try this with my fav team in new save Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blinklys Posted March 22, 2021 Share Posted March 22, 2021 5 hours ago, Reizero said: is your tactic available for download? your tactic look very promising and I hope I can try this with my fav team in new save All the info is literally in this thread. No need for a download. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cult of Football Manager Posted March 22, 2021 Author Share Posted March 22, 2021 6 hours ago, Reizero said: is your tactic available for download? your tactic look very promising and I hope I can try this with my fav team in new save 12 minutes ago, Blinklys said: All the info is literally in this thread. No need for a download. As @Blinklys said it's all in the thread except for set pieces! I was planning to do some more Tweaks then upload it when its perfected more but I'll include some Downloads in the OP when I get home from my sessions tonight! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lordluap Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 (edited) @Cult of Football Manager have you seen this THIS from Spielverlagerung ? Also THIS ? Edited March 23, 2021 by Lordluap Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cult of Football Manager Posted March 23, 2021 Author Share Posted March 23, 2021 15 minutes ago, Lordluap said: @Cult of Football Manager have you seen this THIS from Spielverlagerung ? Also THIS ? HI @Lordluap No I hadn't until you just posted it. Had a quick look as i've got a minute spare looks very interesting! Very interesting also as the first one it says was advised by and collaborated with by the Borussia Mönchengladbach assistant manager so its interesting to see how other teams are currently analysing City and how then they look like they will appear to try & stop them. Thank you for posting this! I was testing some more yesterday to try and improve the realism of the tactic I'm currently stuck between either getting good build up shape and patterns or good statistics ( winning, higher Possession etc ) so i'm trying to combine the two but finding myself often one without the other. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cult of Football Manager Posted March 24, 2021 Author Share Posted March 24, 2021 Ok so after a ridiculous amount of attempts with drastically different set ups I think i'm onto something and it happens to be just a tweak really on where I was at before. It will only work I would think with a team who's expected to be a heavy favourite in a division but then again that is what we are replicating. I want to post my progress so far as I think I've achieved a decent amount of success in results, stats & movement/shape replication. However Due to the ridiculous start liverpool have had in my save It may end up with me posting a "better" replication tactic but finishing second. This is the first season playing as city 2020/2021 On the original database. Positives: - We are extremely good at keeping the ball and still maintain the patterns as before. -This results in the Possession stat being higher which i know isn't massively important if its not calculated the same way but come on lets face it when attempting any sort of possession based tactic in FM we all love it when we dominate that statistic! - We are so good at keeping it we often keep the opposition XG below Negatives: - We don't create as many chances as the previous tactic and our XG is a little lower then before. This in general hasn't been an issue yet because at an equal amount of even more we keep the opponents lower also. - Going behind now may require more focus on watching the game & changing and making adjustments earlier to something like positive mentality. I also have a All out attack tactic with the wingers in the striker slots i've had to use twice this season so far once it worked ( Newcastle ). One other time ( CL game we lost ) we were 2-0 down and we got back to 2-1. Lets see how this plays out but again if it falls just sort might be a good blueprint for someone to take on and perfect. The Difference: The big difference here is it really dominates well as a tactic the better your team is compared to the opposition. That might sound simple but the other tactic it didn't matter how good my team got it always sat around 60-63 average even 3 seasons in and the best team on the planet. I feel this one will dominate the better my team gets and the higher the reputation of the team and players get. We will see though 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cult of Football Manager Posted March 25, 2021 Author Share Posted March 25, 2021 So in the end Liverpool were way too good on this save. The lack of scoring chances meant a lot of 1-0 wins and the goals weren't as good. The one thing that was consistent was we were absolutely dominating smaller teams in battle for possession and starving them of chances and I think if you play in a league with less competition it would work extremely well and in England if you can get through the first season you'll dominate more and more but it's definitely even less of a P&P type tactic then the first one. I might restart with CIty and hope Liverpool don't have a monster start but also feel i should go back to my Boston save with my original tactic or look to try this elsewhere. Maybe Rangers or somebody with the cautious tactic. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jameswazza3 Posted March 28, 2021 Share Posted March 28, 2021 More! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cult of Football Manager Posted March 28, 2021 Author Share Posted March 28, 2021 1 hour ago, jameswazza3 said: More! Haha I've been testing some things out and when I think i've made progress I restart a new save so I have evidence of it playing out over a full season which takes time in my current schedule. Otherwise the results and statistics are all off! I've just made a little more progress and a quite well known poster on the forums has collaborated with me and put some tweaks in with some excellent results so i'm about to run a separate new save with that too. I'm flying home next week so i'll have lots more free time to play over the summer to get this as close as I feel I can get and then maybe start a second thread also with a new piece of analysis and tactic recreation on a different manager/team ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cult of Football Manager Posted March 29, 2021 Author Share Posted March 29, 2021 (edited) Ok so I'd noticed over the years lots of ( not all ) possession based tactics that have been released in FM are often not being created and tested with a premier league team in the first season. I had a suspicion that the AI and Club reputation difference ( among some other factors also ) in other leagues made it easier to dominate teams and AI teams would surrender control of the game easier therefore making it easier to dominate. I wanted to test my tactic with a couple of tweaks i've been trying in a different league and its only a start but its very promising. I have made transfers, again I play the saves with the intention to continue them and therefore I play them out the way I would normally play as the selected team. After 3 Games: After 6 Games: St Mirren Game: Now this game I have selected because we had 80% Possession going into the final 2 minutes of the game and then they stole my personal record away from me in FM! Getting late so I've had to end it there for now but it will be interesting to see if it stays this high. My guess is that it will finish 65-66% at the end of the season but we will see! It's not just about the possession obviously there are the other factors but the build up shape is fairly decent and we're still getting decent patterns in the final third. It can still be improved I mean i hate the way it looks in the tactical creator but it's what comes out in the match engine i'm adjusting and basing stuff on. Here's Some Links for downloads if people are interested. They are all named similar so hopefully I upload the right ones! Original " Final" tactic ( City 2017-2019 W shape build up ) 4-3-3 Manchester City.fmf City 2020 - 2021 ( IWB and LCDM Double Pivot ) 4-3-3 Manchester City 2020 - 2021.fmf City 2020 - 2021 ( Version 2 ) SK-D instead of A and Keeper distribution edited 4-3-3 Manchester City 2020 - 2021 Version 2.fmf City 2020 - 2021 ( Current Rangers Save ) Version 2 alterations plus a couple more 4-3-3 Rangers.fmf All set pieces are my own the defending corners are inspired from real life issues i had with my own team and coming up with a hybrid Zonal and man system to fix it. Attacking corners and throw ins are just custom ones I made that seem to do decent enough with most tactics. They aren't the best around but they're ok. I have tried putting in specific possession based set pieces which you could do to improve the statistics but I feel the tactic overall drops a little when i've done that. Also I haven't uploaded the cautious version mentioned previously But it's exactly the same as the 2020 - 2021 version just with cautious mentality. You'll probably get a couple more percent possession on average across the season but your goal threat drops massively and lots of games are decided on who gets the first goal. It could be tweaked though into a better overall tactic with cautious. I will test it again soon. Edited March 29, 2021 by Cult of Football Manager 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cult of Football Manager Posted March 30, 2021 Author Share Posted March 30, 2021 (edited) I'm Flying home to the Uk on Monday and had a few things to sort out. I wanted to make sure incase I didn't have time the Rangers save got played out so I went on Holiday after the January transfer window and this is how it finished. Average Possession & Passes Completed: XG For XG Against CCC's Goals From Corners Penalties Dribbles Made: League Table: We won the league cup, fa cup & Quarter finals of europa league but finished second in the league. When I stopped playing myself we were around 4 points behind Celtic but still had to play them twice. They drew once in the first 24 games and the only defeats they had were to me so it was one of those seasons they would never of had if I wasn't playing as Rangers! What to take from the save: As I suspected in a lower league the tactic would dominate more for possession. The results are a little disappointing but with the offset LCDM to one side and the other completely open in the match engine I feel there will always be issues. Lots of my goals conceded were down the right side on the counter attack. Even so I hoped the 2020-2021 style tactic would have got more then 88 points. I would have got more if I kept playing myself but i don't think we would have beaten celtic to the title anyway. I've found myself dropping points in games where we concede first and I've tried to go for the game to get a goal back and nothing happens or we get hit on the counter so maybe a better logical next step to be more aggressive would be good. I currently put tempo to very high around 55 minutes and if that's not working I have an all out attack tactic that didn't work once for me in this save in actual fact. We had by far the most XG for and Least XG against which I think backs up the right hand side argument, that was often their first or second chance of the game and resulting in the opposition scoring below 1XG on a regular basis. Maybe the GK was poor too as that seems we conceded over double the amount expected in XG! I'm going to play as Rangers again with my current tweaks but with the CDM put back to the centre. It's disappointing in terms of the build up shape will look more like the 'W" shape in the build up. In the current way we have it a lot closer but the RCB even with stay wider is still far too narrow and there's not much I feel I can do about that without making the tactic absolutely kamikaze. If however you want to entertain playing the one CB @crusadertsar has a fantastic thread on it ( and managed to do it successfully with his own tactic ) here https://community.sigames.com/forums/topic/545967-playing-on-the-edge-dominating-possession-with-only-one-cb/ Which may help you in that quest. I will play out my Rangers Save again with my Central Pivot hopefully this will become a long term save and we can contrast some of the stats etc from this partially played partially simmed season. Edited March 30, 2021 by Cult of Football Manager Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cult of Football Manager Posted March 30, 2021 Author Share Posted March 30, 2021 (edited) Also I've been talking and collaborating with @knap ( Who i think provides a brilliant service to people on the forums ) on a few things including the original tactic from this thread and he's tweaked the original version and run a test with Liverpool that won everything and averaged 62% in the first season. That's pretty good for a first season in the premier league on FM and you'd expect it to go higher second season with the correct signings. What's even more incredible is the Assistant manager picked the team for him in nearly all of his games which often had players like Milner, Henderson and Andrew Robertson all having turns as the "wide Players" and it still dominated all competitions and got decent average possession. I haven't fully tested it myself but I saw a clip from the Champions league final and they score a great goal where all 3 right sided players take turns at exploiting the half space, eventually one gets the ball played and they go through to score. If anyone is interested here is @knap's tweaks and version of the tactic. Here's also a link to his post in his thread showing his results with his version of the tactic. 1666785189_ME21.7ManchesterCity2020-2021CULTFMKnap41221P103ALLCUPS (1).fmf Edited March 30, 2021 by Cult of Football Manager 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivanbox Posted March 30, 2021 Share Posted March 30, 2021 Hi, @Cult of Football Manager Please post what PI's tweaks made knap becasuse i play FM20! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cult of Football Manager Posted March 30, 2021 Author Share Posted March 30, 2021 3 hours ago, ivanbox said: Hi, @Cult of Football Manager Please post what PI's tweaks made knap becasuse i play FM20! I don't believe he actually changed any PI's! What he did change a lot is the set pieces and you'd have to look at his discord channel to get an image of those. I can send them to you when I get round to finishing some stuff off here but if you can't wait PM Knap and get on his Discord Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cult of Football Manager Posted March 30, 2021 Author Share Posted March 30, 2021 (edited) I managed to get some stuff done and got a start on the Rangers Save with the Original set up formation with the two new tweaks: League Table: I mean what is this rubbish here god forbid if i drop points in ONE single game i'm going to be second. Haha does this happen to anyone else in leagues like this or the Portuguese league? Their only defeat was to me and my only draw was the very first game of the season ironically to Aberdeen away. Other Stats: Not sure what to make of this yet waiting for some long term injuries to happen to draw one game and have the pressure put on us. League Table after the split: We couldn't..... could we? Edited March 31, 2021 by Cult of Football Manager 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cult of Football Manager Posted March 31, 2021 Author Share Posted March 31, 2021 (edited) So we lost the very last game of the season. It's a good job I wasn't streaming this or anything as the language I used wasn't very professional. I still haven't calmed down really. I mean why after all that does it make us lose the last game.. Gutted. As you can tell I took it well haha! Stats: But yeah it's as I expected in a league that isn't the premier league on FM the tactic dominates far more. The same tactic with a couple of tweaks Averaged 60% first season with City and 63% second season. Here its 66% with Rangers. Also again i reiterate with the fact FM calculates it differently and there's a chance if you calculated it the Opta do or did until recently you'll find you're normally an extra 2% roughly higher then the game is telling you in its statistic section. I still can't believe it. mean the irony is they play at RUGBY park too.. very fitting to ruin our beautiful football's unbeaten season. Edited March 31, 2021 by Cult of Football Manager 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cristhianlinhatti Posted March 31, 2021 Share Posted March 31, 2021 19 horas atrás, Cult of Football Manager disse: I managed to get some stuff done and got a start on the Rangers Save with the Original set up formation with the two new tweaks: What tweaks? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cult of Football Manager Posted March 31, 2021 Author Share Posted March 31, 2021 Just now, cristhianlinhatti said: What tweaks? Keeper in possession - Slow down GK - SK - D instead of SK - A I thought I had also done hold shape but I didn't! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cult of Football Manager Posted April 2, 2021 Author Share Posted April 2, 2021 (edited) Just a brief update. I'm flying home to the UK on Monday and when I get home i'll be setting up an online platform ( Youtube channel etc ) where I'll do some analysis, FM saves and other stuff. I will definitely be doing a save with this tactic and still looking to make tweaks etc and if people are interested we could even do a twitch stream and have a real time discussion etc about everything covered in the thread and the tactic. I also finished my second season with Rangers. I wanted to see if it would maintain the same level of results and possession for a second season or if it would drop or even get better. Here are the results: League Table Average Possession Clear cut chances: XG For XG Against Edit * After uploading that I forgot I still had the Scottish Cup final to play here is how it went ( We already won the League cup earlier in the year ) 4-3-3 Rangers Version 2.fmf Edited April 2, 2021 by Cult of Football Manager 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarriball14 Posted April 10, 2021 Share Posted April 10, 2021 Firstly this thread has been a game changer for me personally! Helped bring my passion back for the game with the help of this years match engine being considerably better than previous versions. I decided to start a save with Rangers as well using your rangers version 2 tactic. The idea of wrestling back the title from Celtic whilst slowly building a side that could compete in Europe. The First season went better than planned, couple losses in the league but won the league and one of the cups, made it to the latter stages of the Europe league. 2nd season I made several improvements to the squad, we won the league unbeaten and both cups, somehow made it to the quarter finals of the champions league where Man City had other ideas and dominated us across both legs. We had quite a few draws in the league where we struggled to break teams down which I was expecting. We concede several chances most games even against the lower placed teams in the league. I guess that’s to be expected with the kind of football and risk taking in the tactic. I can live with the odd draw and conceding chances because the football we play is beautiful and the majority of goals we score are exactly how I like to see the game played. Into my 3rd season now with more squad improvements and again finding it hard to break teams down and this time in the league and finished 3rd in champions league group (athletico, Spurs and RB Leipzig were in our group) Do you make any changes for away games in Europe? ive noticed that the F9 role is becoming an issue for me, regularly dropping 6.5 in ratings. I do have Morelos still playing this role and while a lot of his attributes do suit the role I think it maybe down to his poor decision making and composure. First season he scored nearly 40 goals across all comps but us progressively got worse. one player that has absolutely been on fire is Haggi in the AM role, his goals and assists are outrageous. Managed to turn down offers from Bayern and several premier league clubs for him but he wants to leave now. Offers have been no where near what I think he’s worth. Sorry for waffling on but it’s the first time in a long time that a save has got me fully invested and committed. So much potential still, just need some advice on big away games I guess? will try and post some screenshots of previous seasons when I can! keep up the amazing work!! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
latrell Posted April 10, 2021 Share Posted April 10, 2021 Great Progress @ Cult of Football Manager really love how the thread and the tactic has evolved i had to put my save on hold as wife has just had a baby so i have not been brave enough to fire FM back up yet but i have been brave enough to have a read through this thread again i just can not wait to play fm again when everything has settled down a bit. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cult of Football Manager Posted April 10, 2021 Author Share Posted April 10, 2021 7 hours ago, Sarriball14 said: Firstly this thread has been a game changer for me personally! Helped bring my passion back for the game with the help of this years match engine being considerably better than previous versions. I decided to start a save with Rangers as well using your rangers version 2 tactic. The idea of wrestling back the title from Celtic whilst slowly building a side that could compete in Europe. The First season went better than planned, couple losses in the league but won the league and one of the cups, made it to the latter stages of the Europe league. 2nd season I made several improvements to the squad, we won the league unbeaten and both cups, somehow made it to the quarter finals of the champions league where Man City had other ideas and dominated us across both legs. We had quite a few draws in the league where we struggled to break teams down which I was expecting. We concede several chances most games even against the lower placed teams in the league. I guess that’s to be expected with the kind of football and risk taking in the tactic. I can live with the odd draw and conceding chances because the football we play is beautiful and the majority of goals we score are exactly how I like to see the game played. Into my 3rd season now with more squad improvements and again finding it hard to break teams down and this time in the league and finished 3rd in champions league group (athletico, Spurs and RB Leipzig were in our group) Do you make any changes for away games in Europe? ive noticed that the F9 role is becoming an issue for me, regularly dropping 6.5 in ratings. I do have Morelos still playing this role and while a lot of his attributes do suit the role I think it maybe down to his poor decision making and composure. First season he scored nearly 40 goals across all comps but us progressively got worse. one player that has absolutely been on fire is Haggi in the AM role, his goals and assists are outrageous. Managed to turn down offers from Bayern and several premier league clubs for him but he wants to leave now. Offers have been no where near what I think he’s worth. Sorry for waffling on but it’s the first time in a long time that a save has got me fully invested and committed. So much potential still, just need some advice on big away games I guess? will try and post some screenshots of previous seasons when I can! keep up the amazing work!! Hey Sarriball14, Thank you for your kind words they're really appreciated ! And i'm really pleased it's inspired you to get back into the game with some purpose and passion that's about the best someone could hope for on the forums! First Season: that's great! It's always good to get that title first season glad things started well Second Season: Sounds Like a brilliant season! I mean to do that with this type of football and the players you had is fantastic. Got the Unbeaten season too congratulations! Third Season: wow group of death haha. I fear that ( finishing 3rd ) could happen with a tactic like this against those teams. Unfortunately I can't offer advice from experience only theory. In my second season I half deliberately got knocked out of the CL to go into the Europa league as i felt i had a better chance of winning it then I stopped in my third season before starting any games. I had a defensive version of the tactic I went to around 77 mins onwards in close games and I don't think once it let me down so I'll share that. Also I'll share what I do to chase a goal with this tactic. I have some logical progressions which seem to be better for getting a goal then going to a completely different all out attack tactic straight away. F-9 I agree and it's not my favourite role It could be something to experiment with especially in the games away from home in Europe. Even in my City save lots of top players would struggle in the F9 role. Yeah I cashed in on him first season and I ended up with Brenner, Esposito and Badji in the last season with Brenner retrained to a winger to play either role. Esposito was the only top level striker I had who would score against everyone and play well. No need to apologise haha this thread is for everyone feel free to contribute and add as much as you like. I've gone quiet as I just flew home and i'm currently in the process of starting up a Youtube channel and I'm actually ready to start recording. I'll definitely be using this tactic in one of my saves early on so feel free to come and watch me lose 1-0 away to europe and throw my mac out the window! Yes please do ! i love reading how everyone else is getting on or if they've made tweaks how it's improved the tactic if it has at all. 5 hours ago, latrell said: Great Progress @ Cult of Football Manager really love how the thread and the tactic has evolved i had to put my save on hold as wife has just had a baby so i have not been brave enough to fire FM back up yet but i have been brave enough to have a read through this thread again i just can not wait to play fm again when everything has settled down a bit. Thanks Latrell for the kind words I really appreciate it! Haha I noticed you'd gone quiet after being involved lots early on I was wondering what had happened Congratulations to you and your wife! Haha! let us know how you get on i'm excited for you! Are you carrying on with your City save or have you got a new team in mind? 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
latrell Posted April 10, 2021 Share Posted April 10, 2021 (edited) Thank you@Cult of Football ManagerSeeing your great season you have had with Rangers and the football you had your team playing i am thinking of starting of fresh in a different league and really have some fun with it Edited April 10, 2021 by latrell 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cult of Football Manager Posted April 16, 2021 Author Share Posted April 16, 2021 Hi Everyone, My online Platform is going Live tonight and i'll have an episode from each of the two saves I'm running on youtube. Feel free to PM me for a link as I'm still waiting to get an all clear from the Moderators to post a link and video in here. In one of the saves I'll be using the most up to date version of the tactic starting properly in the lower leagues. Have a great weekend everyone 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cult of Football Manager Posted April 21, 2021 Author Share Posted April 21, 2021 Hi Everyone, I hope you're all doing well. Just thought I'd leave a quick update. I'm currently doing a proper long term save with Boston now I have time to do it. The Mods on here have given me permission to link my Youtube channel for those of you that are interested in seeing the tactic play out over the season(s) and how I tweak it to get a goal or see out the game. Youtube channel Link: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-rJ_c0v5_rhoiRMT8ZlO1w I'm currently in my first season & here's the current situation. We haven't hit the period yet where teams change their approach and start to improve their results against us but I feel that is upon us with 1-0 1-0 & 1-1 in the last 3 games! I'm currently 4 episodes in having just uploaded one today so feel free to come and join the series! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cult of Football Manager Posted April 26, 2021 Author Share Posted April 26, 2021 (edited) Hi Everyone i posted this in another thread regarding the Guardiola 2-3-5 set up which I feel we achieved decently well in the match engine but maybe not in the tactics creator itself. It was this seasons 3-2-5 if you will that appears a lot harder to replicate with the same level of success anyway! I just wanted to make the point that the way I set up the tactic isn't how I wanted it to look. I would much rather of it been in a 4-3-3 set up in the tactics creator and played out the way it has from there but it just wasn't something I felt worked well enough for the reasons listed below in this post. If you've read the entire thread then some bits will be going over some things you've read before but if you've skim read the thread then you might be interested in some parts! This post includes some images & clips from a recent test I was doing trying to tweak this tactic into a more normal 4-3-3 set up but was finding the same issues. The Post ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ "I personally haven't found a way to fully recreate it yet I'm still testing & you're more then likely going to have to cut one corner to get another for an example playing with CM's in the CM slots or strata is where most of us would put City's central midfield players in the tactics creator. The problem i've found even with Mezzala or CM on attack duties is that they don't appear to get high enough early enough in the build up phase & don't look to threaten the gap between the FB & CB early enough. Combining this with wingers who like to run with the ball means you end up with very little realism in terms of the movements, combinations and patterns from Pep's City. - The other issue with them in this slot is out of possession they take a lot longer to press the opposition CB's meaning the opposition CB's and GK can make a few passes between them before they are pressed into playing it long which can negatively impact your possession statistic which i'll come back to in a second. Also having the attacking wide players in the LW/RW slots on support appear to make them drop too far from the front line in the build up & the only role that you can have stay wider, Hold position & Not have run with ball often preset is the inside forward I believe ? I've resorted to Wide midfielders on attack duty and with run with ball often as they still look to dribble a lot less then with IW or W in the higher strata from what i've found. The first issue i see in your specific case is what exactly are you trying to replicate? You mention statistics If it's statistics that matter to you such as 65% Possession and 650 passes completed then some investigation is required to how the match engine records stats such as this. ( Unless it's been updated & if it has the following would be wrong ) Football Manager records possession the old formula of literally time of possession on a stop clock. This formula changed in real life around 2010 I believe by Opta who provide stats for the premier league whereby they record it in a mathematical formula based on the teams total of completed passes divided by the overall amount calculating the average. I remember reading they had looked at updated it again since using this but also factoring in some other areas but I don't remember reading if they did eventually go through with it. Also in my City save I was looking closely at statistics with my recreation and you have to accept that things are very different from the real world to FM here's an example of what I found I'll just quote what I said to save time " Arsenal in my FM game have the most Dribbles per game at 5.24. In real life the last completed season ( 2019 - 2020 ) the highest team had 13.4 dribbles per game and the LOWEST team had 6.5 dribbles per game according to whoscored. I also posted an example of calculating possession in a few of my games in the passes completed formula and it worked out in most games if it was calculated like this that I would have been 2% better off then what was recorded in game. If you carry that across the season I'll end up 2% down from where I would have been in real life. Again showing statistical comparisons have to be taken in context. Whoscored right this second have City at 61.2% for what its worth ( i'm not entirely sure how they calculate it ) which is definitely achievable in FM even in the Premier League. I Just in my testing recently played a game against Everton which showed promise but i fear the same issues described above. Tactic: Here in this clip we can see exactly this. Sterling picks it up no where near the back line and is actually pressed by the winger of their team not the full back and then the RCM makes no attempt to make a threatening run BEYOND the backline which is my biggest annoyance in the match engine. This is our first goal now notice at the start of the move LCM looks to start moving then stops this is partly to my LB's overlap yes but also the F-9 in review pulls over into the gap we want to exploit with the CM's so maybe I need to take roam from position off him? or change the role? I also have no idea why sterling is so deep or so narrow but there we are! This is actually a bit of both. You can see the wide players and CM's are far too deep. If the wide players drop that deep the CM's should be looking to get off of their line vertically ahead of them but they don't. After the LW dribbles with the ball though a bit further ahead we get the exact combination of movements we're looking for. And lastly this image sums it up perfectly I won't go into anymore this post will be long enough as it is, i just wanted to show examples of what i'm referring to but at half time I switched the W-S to IW-S to see if we got a little more combination play from the wide players with the CM's and eventually changed the LCM to CM-A around 60 minutes. This is how it ended. This was the goal in the second half I think it actually looked and played a lot better with IW-S they seemed to look to link more often then the W-S with this current set up. The goal comes about with the LCM eventually threatening the gap and although the ball doesn't go to him he makes the movement and we retain well before getting a 1v1 then going around the back line. I personally ended up tweaking a 4-3-3 set up similar to the one above into a set up where the wide players in my front 3 are in the midfield strata/slots and the cm's are in the AM strata/slots. Because of this i got some of the patterns I wanted to see but its ugly in the tactics creator and also the 2 attacking central midfield players then don't defend properly. They almost press as a front 3 with the striker and take a while to get back and defend with the CDM. So it's not a better solution it just got me a different outcome. The WM-A also doesn't quite stay wide enough for long enough but on attack duty is still a threat and appeared from my testing to be as far forwards as the IW or W on S duties in the higher strata both in patterns and in average positions after the game. I'm not happy with my outcome i'd prefer to abandon it and have a more orthodox 4-3-3 set up and get the same success & outcomes but so far i've found it hard to find anything better that gets success in replication from a statistical point of view ( Possession ) and also the movements and combinations to penetrate the back 4 specifically. I'm not a FM expert, FM match engine or tactics creator expert I just happen to have studied city a little in real life. I post this as discussion pieces not to tell anyone i'm right or they're wrong. I've Played FM a long time & I have attempted recreations before but I mostly played to win and win as often & as early as possible regardless of realism or anything else which is why I absolutely do not claim to be an expert on the match engine or tactics creator! " ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ There you have it. I had that tactic shown above tested by someone who does FM testing and it finished 2nd with United ( and only averaged 58% possession ) , 5th with West Ham and 13th with a relegation Battler. The quote was it didn't score enough goals. Now I'm perfectly happy we can come up with something that works the way we want but ONLY works with an extremely top side like City because you could argue well that would be realistic! But I was also hoping the tactic would be good enough to use with enough different teams. I will keep testing and like I said in the post I'm not saying here's my findings and here's where i'm right and you're wrong absolutely not! I'm just saying this is what i've found and lets have a discussion about it and if someone has achieved what we're looking for with either CM's in the CM slot or Wingers higher on a support duty feel free to contribute ! Although my posts are long they are discussion pieces not lectures! I've just always been taught to provide your opinion with findings and evidence in football & I guess I've carried it through to here as well! Edited April 26, 2021 by Cult of Football Manager 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cult of Football Manager Posted April 27, 2021 Author Share Posted April 27, 2021 (edited) Right I've been back at it testing again. I wanted to see if there was a way to try and create something similar to what I achieved before but in a system that would seem more logical at least in principle on the tactics screen. I wasn't happy with where I left the tactic my aim was to always continue to improve it but I think as a 2-3-5 Pep 2017-2019 system in that exact formation it works as well as it's going to. I went back to the beginning and started again with what we would all expect a Pep recreation to look like in terms of formation at least in the tactics creator. The issues I point out above I know are going to be there again, but can we find any improvements and make it become the best version of itself. This replication started out as a generic 2-3-5 2017-2019 Pep city recreation but quite quickly I found my interest taken towards recreating more of a 2020-2021 tactic. The Tactic ( This tactic is a work in progress and is tweaked all the time in this save. The underlaps for example are a addition from the last 2 games only ) League Table Stats: Results: Matches: West Ham H: Absolutely dominated them I watched the game in full it was unbelievable how much we had the ball. I'm surprised it's only 70%! Chelsea H: ( Chelsea Average Positions ) - This is the most recent game played in the save Most recent game. Like in the others having both IWB on S seems to cause a number of small issues for me that i'll go into detail about tomorrow. Once changed we penetrated a lot more and scored 3 after the adjustment. Double pivot works well. LB overlaps a little too much but that's fine for now. The wide players despite having stay wide and hold position do tend to drift in BUT the average positions here are massively misleading as it also is including the times where they dribble centrally and release the ball which winger roles can do fairly often. They held their width decently well they just dribble a little too much & can drop off a little too far from the defensive line to get the ball on support duty. Liverpool A: Second game of the season. We were terrible in possession the tactic looked a lot different in terms of roles but constant tweaking meant by the end of the game the tactic looked close to what it does now and this was a very bad game of football for good chances being created! Newcastle H: The early goal just allowed us to keep lots of passive possession then when they finally tried to go for us we carved them open Sheffield United H: This game started off with both IWB & IW on support duty. Despite the possession and dominance we didn't have many shots on goal and our XG was very low until I changed the LW to IW-A and he started to be a little more aggressive with his runs off the ball and got through a few times. Eventually goal came from a cross from the right to the LCM who tapped in the cross from a great move. If we can keep up this average possession and winning like this in the Premier league first season, I wonder just how good it could be doing a save with someone like Rangers. If anyone is still lurking on the thread and about to start a new save and wants to try the tactic out let me know! I have a couple of previous versions that seem even better for possession but are likely to cost you results in the long run because it just doesn't penetrate enough. Edited April 27, 2021 by Cult of Football Manager 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarriball14 Posted April 27, 2021 Share Posted April 27, 2021 Hi Mate, im into my 5th season with rangers now using the original tactic, I’d definitely like to give this more traditional shape a go with my team. We are built for possesion so would be interesting to see what happens. Think I may have already said this but the rangers save using your tactic is by far the most enjoyment I’ve got out of the game in years, I can’t remember the last time I went beyond 3 seasons in a save and that’s testament to how much joy your tactic brings! 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoOSTAR Posted April 27, 2021 Share Posted April 27, 2021 (edited) Are you using any specific Player Instructions in your new tactic? I definitely want to try it out with another team Edited April 27, 2021 by JoOSTAR 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cult of Football Manager Posted April 27, 2021 Author Share Posted April 27, 2021 2 hours ago, Sarriball14 said: Hi Mate, im into my 5th season with rangers now using the original tactic, I’d definitely like to give this more traditional shape a go with my team. We are built for possesion so would be interesting to see what happens. Think I may have already said this but the rangers save using your tactic is by far the most enjoyment I’ve got out of the game in years, I can’t remember the last time I went beyond 3 seasons in a save and that’s testament to how much joy your tactic brings! Hi Mate, Thank you for those comments I really appreciate it and i'm glad you're having so much fun with it! It's such an unforgiving style within the game & can be a very frustrating testing process at times! What's your success been like in terms of trophies and does your average possession change much year on year? I'll happily share it then i'll try and reverse tweak it too making it how it was at the start of the season if people want to take it in a different direction. Current version & Most up to date version: Best overall tactic so far. Good possession ok patterns and movements and creates enough chances to win games. Still need to tweak a few things and see if i can improve the relationship between the CM's and W's. 4-3-3 Manchester City 433.fmf Early season: Base tactic & how it started: High possession but you had to score early on otherwise it was passive possession & would have been lots of points dropped. Lots of games won from set pieces, penalties & changes to the tactic mid game with this version and the immediate tweaks that followed. 4-3-3 Manchester City 433 Base.fmf Base Tweak 1 & 2: This came from having good possession but the central midfield players not threatening early enough down the middle 4-3-3 Manchester City 433 Base Tweak 1.fmf 4-3-3 Manchester City 433 Base Tweak 1 V 2020 - 2021 .fmf Version 2: W-S holds width probably the best but dribbles too often and doesn't make many decent combinations. I might revisit it with underlap on and Mezzala again. CM-A stays a lot deeper on average positions then a mezzala too. 4-3-3 Manchester City 433 V2.fmf Version 3: The last big change before the current version. Back to almost the original tactic but with the CDM offset & now both Mezzalas had dribble more. This isn't something I ideally wanted but at times they would switch the ball for no apparent reason and dribble more seemed to make them more likely to travel with it and then release it rather then low percentage passes. Dribble in the game it appears covers both dribbling and running with the ball which are normally separated as two separate things. 4-3-3 Manchester City 433 V3.fmf Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cult of Football Manager Posted April 27, 2021 Author Share Posted April 27, 2021 9 minutes ago, JoOSTAR said: Are you using any specific Player Instructions in your new tactic? I definitely want to try it out with another team Yeah I just uploaded it mate feel free to download! Hold position stay wider for the wide players, no roam from position for F9 & Dribble more for mezzalas are the main ones! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarriball14 Posted April 27, 2021 Share Posted April 27, 2021 20 minutes ago, Cult of Football Manager said: Hi Mate, Thank you for those comments I really appreciate it and i'm glad you're having so much fun with it! It's such an unforgiving style within the game & can be a very frustrating testing process at times! What's your success been like in terms of trophies and does your average possession change much year on year? I'll happily share it then i'll try and reverse tweak it too making it how it was at the start of the season if people want to take it in a different direction. Current version & Most up to date version: Best overall tactic so far. Good possession ok patterns and movements and creates enough chances to win games. Still need to tweak a few things and see if i can improve the relationship between the CM's and W's. 4-3-3 Manchester City 433.fmf 43.88 kB · 1 download Early season: Base tactic & how it started: High possession but you had to score early on otherwise it was passive possession & would have been lots of points dropped. Lots of games won from set pieces, penalties & changes to the tactic mid game with this version and the immediate tweaks that followed. 4-3-3 Manchester City 433 Base.fmf 43.9 kB · 0 downloads Base Tweak 1 & 2: This came from having good possession but the central midfield players not threatening early enough down the middle 4-3-3 Manchester City 433 Base Tweak 1.fmf 43.92 kB · 0 downloads 4-3-3 Manchester City 433 Base Tweak 1 V 2020 - 2021 .fmf 43.97 kB · 0 downloads Version 2: W-S holds width probably the best but dribbles too often and doesn't make many decent combinations. I might revisit it with underlap on and Mezzala again. CM-A stays a lot deeper on average positions then a mezzala too. 4-3-3 Manchester City 433 V2.fmf 43.89 kB · 0 downloads Version 3: The last big change before the current version. Back to almost the original tactic but with the CDM offset & now both Mezzalas had dribble more. This isn't something I ideally wanted but at times they would switch the ball for no apparent reason and dribble more seemed to make them more likely to travel with it and then release it rather then low percentage passes. Dribble in the game it appears covers both dribbling and running with the ball which are normally separated as two separate things. 4-3-3 Manchester City 433 V3.fmf 43.89 kB · 0 downloads When I get home tonight I’ll upload some images including my current team, transfers in and out, possesion stats and trophies etc... But basically I’ve dominated, currently on a 100+ game unbeaten run excluding Europe and cup games. Lost a cup final to Celtic last season having gone 2-0 up, funnily enough a few weeks before that in the league they came back from 4-0 down at half time and drew :L but other than that I’ve dominated them. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cult of Football Manager Posted April 27, 2021 Author Share Posted April 27, 2021 One thing I should add is that the issues in my post a few posts back are still there. The winger roles dribble a little too much and the CM's take too long to get up but it's been a case of having this kind of set up work and minimalise those issues. One goal in the last game against Chelsea at about 5:00AM this morning pleased me the most. Wonderful bit of positional play where the LB took the wide Zone LW had cut inside and occupied the half space as the "LCM" broke between the FB & CB gap, dribbled towards the goal and then managed to somehow score at the near post. It wasn't about the finish or the goal though just the move. Man City vs Chelsea_41 minutes.webm What's great about it is if you saw the player names everyone on the left side is in a different position occupying a different zone and position to their "designated" one beautiful. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ripamon Posted April 28, 2021 Share Posted April 28, 2021 (edited) Excellent posts mate, this was a truly fascinating read from start to finish. By coincidence ( not really actually, Pep has probably inspired hundreds of people by this point) I've actually also created two Guardiola tactics with which I've experienced terrific success with, the first on peak 2019 city, and a more recent rendition based on his 2021 version. I'm typing on my phone in bed so not gonna make a long post, but I could add a few tidbits. I'll be updating it more gradually and could share my tactics when I do get on my laptop later. For the offset DM in your most recent tactic, I've found its not quite necessary. I've managed to recreate the same effect by utilizing a DLP-s on my CDM and then using Focus Play left. The DLP-S tends to drift to the sides more than DM roles, rather like the Regista. Of course, you might then wonder if he'd push too high up the pitch. I have found that he doesn't, bar the occasional time he gets lured by a long range shooting opportunity. Generally I believe the DM(D) role hangs back a step or two too far back. Rodri and Ferna irl tend to push a bit farther up the pitch to prevent the counter from picking up steam (often with a well placed Dark Arts spectacle). Of course, there's no need to change a winning formula. These are just my observations based on my own extensive testing. Like you, I had immediately used an off center DM, only to be left deeply unsatisfied watching him in the defensive phase on full matches (I'm sure you can relate, having suffered with unaligned WBR roles earlier) About the wings.. Yes that's where I've pulled out hair testing. So frustrating! So much potential. Sometimes they're perfectly placed. Other times, no. You stop to marvel at how well they've maintained their width, high and wide, the next moment they take 3 steps infield and enter into the fullbacks bosom. I would actually say that FM has gotten the role 90% right. Nobody could have predicted Pep would have such a novel way of using them. The Mahrez role in particular is a dilemma for the tactic creator. A winger who stays high and wide? "Fine." Oh but he maintains his width off the ball no matter what? While staying as high as possible? "Damn that's hard". He also wants the ball into feet always, no through balls or weird infield runs so can't be an attack duty? *Match engine explodes* As you can see, there tends to be at least one specific issue relating to each and every wing role, in regards to the specific setup we want to achieve on both wings. For the purpose of this analysis let us use the Mahrez role on the right. It's important to note he plays a slightly different role than LW sterling /Foden, wanting the ball into feet and maintaining constant width, as I said before. Let's recount my experiments and observations to recreate his role below : The Wide Midfielder (Attack) Good Maintains a decent high and wide position in the mid-to-final third transition. Won't overdribble and will look to combine even with Dribble More TI Will get into box to drag fullback away from Mezzala on far side crosses Bad More narrow in final third than Winger and Inverted Winger roles. Borderline impossible to switch the play to them in final third because of their passionate embrace with the fullback Sometimes will literally trip over Mezzala in final third, leaving your poor DM with no viable passing option on the right flank Maintains better final third width on standard mentality than positive, but will also occasionally and inexplicably stay extremely deep while your team is attacking. So you're locked into positive really. Verdict - Good role overall, final third width could be better but he at least doesn't lose the ball 25 times per game like the winger (Stern glare) Winger(Attack) - MR Good Good - Maintains the most width and height of all roles in the MLR and AMLR strata. Stretches the pitch optimally and will attract defenders because of this high and wide positioning Can be made to favor diagonal cut in runs by simply using an inverted player (Mahrez on RM for example) Adds unpredictability by occasionally going on the outside Despite losing the ball often, will almost always be the most creative force on your team and hoover up assists Begins to lose the ball a bit less if you give him direct passing (offers him an out when he runs into trouble on his 900th selfish infield run) Bad - most selfish role in the game. Will frequently take on multiple opponents and sprint blindly without passing until he loses the ball. Not a team player Bad - just in case it wasn't clear enough, he will lose the ball! Infuriatingly. Needlessly. He will take on three opponents by himself while the Mezzala is waving his arms. He will shoot from 30 yards while Aguero is screaming for the ball. Bad - will still make those familiar infield off the ball runs in entrenched situations in the final third. However he does it later than other roles and has a priority to go back outside and reestablish extreme width the moment the attack is about to be recycled. Can't be made to play risky passes - no nice slipped in balls into the strikers path Verdict - Its such a great role really. If it wasn't so selfish there really wouldn't be a discussion to be had. As it is, positive mentality + winger attack will cause you to age 50 years if you watch anything more than key highlights. The Inverted Winger (attack) MR Good - Conscientious and creative. Passes the ball, plays risky passes, team player, relatively unselfish( or maybe I'm just traumatized by the winger at this point) Maintains some decent nominal width and height. Available to receive crossfield balls in middle or final third ( not entrenched camp scenarios) Bad - more than occasionally makes some annoying steps infield to receive the ball when it's literally about to be passed to him. I'm sure it's to allow him setup his diagonal run better but it's annoying. I'm guessing it's some sort of hard coded under the hood idiosyncrasy because he does this on any mentality, with or without roam. Darts between fb and CB frequently in final third entrenched scenarios instead of waiting on the outside Verdict - I would say he provides 7/10 of a Wingers width. However, he does stay wider than the Wide Midfielder and for longer, too. As a cross between the width of the two and the selfishness and selflessness of those two roles, the MR Inverted Winger is probably the best role for our purposes. AMR Winger / Inverted Winger (support) - Hold position, Stay Wider Good makes less frequent forward runs than his rivals because of Hold Position Good - gets into box for far side crosses and is thus an extra presence in box, able to nod it down or recycle Bad Will not stay high up the pitch in middle third or final third. Means he's not a target for crossfield balls or stretching the defense to open up space for the Mezzala. Bad - maintains less width than expected. Can drift annoyingly infield and overall has little to no impact the pitch. Verdict - worst role analysed, almost as bad as an MR support role which I of course binned after watching 20 minutes of their play. Somehow this is what numerous people believe works best but I'm convinced they don't watch their games and instead fall for the trap of "it should work best in theory", kinda like the people who say a Raumdeuter doesn't contribute much defensively just because it's written on the blurb. I have quite a few more observations and contributions to share in due course. I would say I've devised a near-complete recreation I'm relatively satisfied with (particularly Pep's 19/20 rendition) that I'll gladly share later on when I get on my laptop if anyone's interested. I also managed to get my Mezzalas to make the coveted inside channel runs, which required quite a bit of tweaking and unintuitive fiddling. Cheers Edited April 28, 2021 by Ripamon 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cult of Football Manager Posted April 28, 2021 Author Share Posted April 28, 2021 (edited) @Ripamon Thank you for your comments firstly and thank you for a brilliant post! We've seen lots of the same stuff by the sounds of it and you've saved me a lot of typing very pleased to have you join the thread! Now Specifics: CDM The Not requiring the offset CDM is interesting. I actually didn't even intend to go down the "2020 - 2021" route on this most recent recreation but it actually helped play through the opposition that pressed high. I'd love to see your set up if you've managed to achieve that with a DLP centrally as I do think tactics do perform better with the CDM central ( although my current one is still doing alright offset far better then I thought it would ). No absolutely this is exactly the kind of stuff I want if people want to share! I found in that case that the DLP did go too high and I preferred the DM positioning when we have the ball in the final third but It's not something I've looked at again since right at the start so more then happy to have a look at this again. Wingers Haha yes exactly I'm not going to lie it makes me happy that someone else has had similar thoughts and had the same frustrations! I love your good and bad parts because at a quick read I can't see anything I disagree with & is a brilliant addition to the thread. I eventually wanted to do something similar for the CM roles so it's fantastic you've done it for the wide players. The only thing i'd even talk about there is your very last point on IW-S in AMR slot. They do go narrow I agree but i've found that to be more when they get the ball and dribble more then them actually taking up narrow positions? Just re reading it back I don't think it's as bad as you say haha but then again I have already moved one to an attack duty and that one does perform better then the IW-S. I will test dropping it back but the tactic becomes a bottom heavy 4-1-4-1 which i can only imagine starts to drop in possession, passes completed and other things. However just to contradict myself, my shut up shop tactic is a 4-1-4-1 and I've actually noticed it play extremely well and sometimes even get the patterns desired. The problem with that is we're normally 1 or 2 goals up with 10 minutes to go and the opposition are coming after us allowing us space to play through. I've found it hard to dominate with it but i'm going to test it now with my current set up. Yes please do I myself will be as will many others i'm sure! Although with that statement you've set yourself up here haha hopefully it does work as you say for the movements and we can get close to perfecting this and I can retire from active duty in the thread... until FM22 of course. Edited April 28, 2021 by Cult of Football Manager 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cult of Football Manager Posted April 28, 2021 Author Share Posted April 28, 2021 (edited) Just for reference here's my current state of play before tweaking with the IW-S in the RM/LM slots As you can see from the possession being at 63% is very good for the premier league, but passes completed aren't as high as expected. This is from the winger role in particular being on the ball but dribbling with it too much instead of looking to make combinations etc. In my first 4-1-4-1 test it was interesting the IW-A in the LM slot was pretty good actually and a lot better then the IW-S at RM. The IW-A and mezzalas even got enough pressure on the backline to stop them playing out as easy. IW overall still dribbles too much for my liking but there we are. Edited April 28, 2021 by Cult of Football Manager Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarriball14 Posted April 28, 2021 Share Posted April 28, 2021 Hi mate sorry for late reply. Ive managed to get some screenshots from seasons gone by but i havent worked out how to look back on possession stats from previous seasons yet. ive managed to screenshot results and transfers from every season so far 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarriball14 Posted April 28, 2021 Share Posted April 28, 2021 followed on from previous post 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cult of Football Manager Posted April 28, 2021 Author Share Posted April 28, 2021 Brilliant stuff mate love seeing this! Yeah as for previous seasons possession I believe once you start a new season it's gone. So the only way is to create a save file at the end of every season like Rangers season 2. Then go back to saving over your original file after that. Yes happy for you that you got that European trophy in the end! Yeah I think it's like you said before it's down to player quality in Europe. I was ridiculous with my transfers I think of the original squad maybe 1 player survived into the starting 11 of season 2! Although I do like your signing of Assuncao & a few others. I just signed him for on my Forest save he looks amazing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarriball14 Posted April 28, 2021 Share Posted April 28, 2021 Ahhh I’ve definitely missed the boat on that then, pretty sure they were high 60s each season anyway. I managed to sign a couple of wonderkids in particular manual Ugarte and made a huge profit on him, there were a few others as well. The problem I’ve got is keeping hold of them after one or 2 seasons, the other issue I’ve got is attracting big names still, I think unless I win the champions league the reputation of the club won’t increase much more, and because of the huge transfer money I’m getting in each season I’m struggling to spend it all. My youth academy intake seems to have got worse over the seasons despite investing hugely into that side. Only 2 have really come through and stood out, so I’m digging deep into South Africa for little gems and a few are starting to pay off. I’ve only got one regular starter from season one and that’s Haggi, honestly the guys a freak for me, somehow kept all the big teams at bay, an injury to him in the 3rd season helped me with that. I’ll upload some of his stats when I can 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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