Defending and counter attacking

[zyfon5]

48 minutes ago, Tsuru said:

I disagree. For me the goal of playing defensive football is to extract the best possible performance from players which are capable of playing defensive football.  And when this style is chosen, the manager should be aware that his margin of error is lower and should have, for example, a B plan.

Then why not a lower league team plays a different style other than defensive against a big team? Surely playing a style that has a higher margin of error will be better right?

48 minutes ago, Tsuru said:

I also disagree. For me, park the bus is yes used by small teams against bigger ones, but only because they have nothing to loose. Their winning chances are low anyway, their mistake margin is also very low - because the other team is much better - and nobody expects anything from them, so they park the bus trying to draw or maybe loose for a few goals instead of many. And this is the same on FM when you are an underdog on a national cup playing against a much bigger and stronger team, but not necessarily a strategy used during all matches of a full season (or many seasons).

But according to you defensive football has a tight margin of error so why they still play defensive against big teams knowing that?When people do not expect anything surely going full out attacking is better? Losing six goals and losing one goal is the same anyways when you do not have any expectations.

 

48 minutes ago, Tsuru said:

I didn´t say that defensive football is measured by the mistake margin, I said that it has a smaller one.

And yes, it has been said here on the forums that some people see Guardiola´s style as very defensive. It depends a lot on the way you look into it.

You said that defensive football mistake margin is very tight in your original reply. Then contradicts yourself by stating defensive football is not measured by mistake margin and said it is a smaller one. Sorry cannot process it with my limited vocabulary. Maybe you can explain more to me.

Then what do you think is not defensive football by your definition? I am more interested in that TBH.

Edited April 8, 2021 by zyfon5

[Tsuru]

21 horas atrás, zyfon5 disse:

Then why not a lower league team plays a different style other than defensive against a big team? Surely playing a style that has a higher margin of error will be better right?

But according to you defensive football has a tight margin of error so why they still play defensive against big teams knowing that?When people do not expect anything surely going full out attacking is better? Losing six goals and losing one goal is the same anyways when you do not have any expectations.

You said that defensive football mistake margin is very tight in your original reply. Then contradicts yourself by stating defensive football is not measured by mistake margin and said it is a smaller one. Sorry cannot process it with my limited vocabulary. Maybe you can explain more to me.

Then what do you think is not defensive football by your definition? I am more interested in that TBH.

I will explain my point of view.

I think there are many different kinds and ways of playing defensive football - even Guardiola´s one may be viewed as that. But let´s think for a moment about a classical setup of defensive football - "defend deep, absorb pressure, strike quickly at the counter".

These three sentences resume the basic strategy of the team, that is, this is what the team is intended to do when entering the field. You hire players, choose roles and duties, instructions, everything well. There is a lot of work on this. Then you go into a match, the other team scores at the first minute due to an awful pass from your CB to your fullback and starts defending deep, happy with 1-0, just letting the clock run. 

You have two options: you can accept the situation and do nothing, or you can attack. But if you decide to attack, you will have to change your basic strategy - you cannot defend deep anymore, as the other team wants you to do it, you need to press instead of absorb pressure, and you won´t be able to score at the counter simply because there is no space for that. 

Another situation: you enter the field and the other team also defends deep. Will you accept the 0-0 or will you have to attack if you want to win the game? But if you decide to attack, you will have to change your basic strategy - you cannot defend deep anymore, as the other team wants you to do it, you need to press instead of absorb pressure, and you won´t be able to score at the counter simply because there is no space for that. 

Now let´s imagine that you hired players and designed your team to attack. You enter the field and the other team scores at the first minute due to an awful pass from your CB to your fullback and starts defending deep, happy with 1-0, just letting the clock run. 

You designed your team to attack. Maybe you will have to adapt to fight the opponent´s parked bus, but you will probably don´t need a completely different strategy.

In the first example, I believe the basic strategy´s margin of error is smaller. An awful pass, a bad day, you suffer a goal and you will need to change it completely (if you want to win the game). On the second one, a mistake and/or a suffered goal do not mean you will have to change your strategy completely. 

When you are a complete underdog - on a cup against a bigger team, when you are Greece 2004 or Switzerland from Karl Rappan, or when you just got promoted - you really have nothing to loose. The expectations are low, opponents are stronger, so if you find a goal, park the bus and win, ok, if you don´t, nobody will blame you for that, nobody will really care. And also in these situations the stronger team has a bigger chance of attacking and pressing you, leaving space behind - they are favourites anyway - so your basic strategy has a bigger chance of working. It´s different when you are playing against a weaker team or a team of the same level, in which they can simply defend deep from the beggining, or have the same counter strategy, and winning the game will be harder due to lack of space to strike and score.

For a complete underdog or newly promoted team, a draw can be a valuable point. But for a team that wants a trophy or wants to keep winning championships, this can represent two less valuable points. I lost six points this way last season on FM, my team did not won the trophy neither the direct promotion, and I started to rethink the counter attack strategy exactly for this reason.

For me a 1-0 defeat is completely normal, but a 6-0 is a total humiliation that will destroy the team´s morale completely and can start a bad form for many matches. 

To conclude, if something has a mistake margin higher or lower it doesn´t mean it can be completely defined by that. There are many aspects that can define defensive football and we would have to look at all of them.

Edited April 9, 2021 by Tsuru

[CEVR1996]

Em 07/04/2021 em 23:39, Zemahh disse:

If you could make a new thread with a screenshot of the tactic you're using, that'd be great. Just so that we don't hijack OPs thread here.

But if you're talking about the 4-4-2 from my Dorking Wanderers save, I remember flanks being the most vulnerable part of that tactic. You could check your Analyst Report to confirm exactly what type of goals you're conceding and where the assists are coming from, but Very Attacking Mentalities on both flanks (Attacking Mentality + Wingers on Attack Duty) are always going to cause some issues defensively. I'd say defenders with excellent Jumping Reach and Heading are a must in any low-block tactic.

I´ve just opened a new thread with the tactic I´m looking foward to employ in my new save and I´d really like to get your feedback on it. It´s pretty similar to the one you made for Dorking Wanderes but it has received a couple tweaks since my last post.