The absurdity of FM.

[dolph11]

17 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

But it's not the same as park the bus like the preset makes our to be. That was my point. 

Agreed Not too dissimilar though. 

Edited May 3, 2021 by dolph11

[Puluzu]

Having read through the whole thread, I still think the main misunderstanding here is how the team instructions work in conjunction with overall mentality. When you start with defensive mentality and add in frequently waste time, more direct passing, be more disciplined, lower tempo coupled with the defensive settings of lower LOE, defensive line and less urgent pressing you're basically telling your team to sit stationary inside your own third and hoof the ball the moment you get it with zero risk taking. I wonder if it was more clearly shown that with defensive mentality you're already doing many of these things (compared to higher mentalities) without additionally adding them as TI's there would be as much confusion.

 

If op still has the game saved before this match, it would be interesting to see how it would turn out if they took out be more disciplined, lower def line, less urgent pressing, lower tempo and frequently waste time and changed the goalkeeper distrubution to something that doesn't completely negate counter attacking chances. DLFa up top and at least one winger to an attack duty, the other side wingback to support instead of automatic (which turns to defend role here). My guess is that Liverpools shots would be about half of what they were, but this might still be too passive on defensive overall mentality.

[Zemahh]

15 hours ago, Robson 07 said:

- Team mentality has been set to Defend.

- Out of possession instructions are untouched.  So both DL and LOE are standard.  

- Do I have a low block?  Y/N

I'd say your defensive block is primarily dictated by your formation, rather than Mentality.

With the LOE, you're not controlling actual distance from goal (e.g. "start pressing 60m from goal"), but rather how close/far from their starting positions should players initiate the press.

• Much Lower LOE = Wait until opposition comes much closer
• Lower LOE = Wait until opposition comes closer
• Higher LOE = Start pressing higher
• Much Higher LOE = Start pressing much higher

Lower LOE in-game description:

Since players' starting positions are determined by their formation, a Higher LOE w/ 4-4-2 might not be the same as w/ 4-2-3-1, for example. If you compare the in-game graphics below, 4-4-2 with maxed out lines still only has two players in the final third, whereas 4-2-3-1 with the same settings has four:

With 4-4-2, you might not even need to use a Lower LOE to achieve a low block, since the formation is already bottom-heavy by itself, whereas with top-heavy formations you may.

Here's an example of Tackles and Interceptions with an aggressive 4-4-2 I'm currently using in my save (Higher D-Line, Much Higher LOE, More Urgent Pressing):

Still only a mid-high block, despite the very aggressive settings.

Mentality does adjust the lines slightly, but I'd say your choices of formation and LOE are far more important.

[Blünderbossu]

The presets seem to be an extreme example that do only one thing to the point where it's not effective and it's easy to play against. You have to go through eliminating instructions which double up on effects until you have the minimum amount required to define a particular variant of the style that sets an identity that suits but is also adaptable enough to do the other elements of the game to a good enough effect. 

If you use a purely defensive preset then the AI will be able to just attack. If you use some of the more attacking ones you'll often find that the players are all forward too early and can't make runs without going offside, and the midfield will continually blast from range. 

The phrase "preset" is misleading because the game is telling you that this will work almost plug and play. If you use an attacking preset with a good team you'll do okay just because you're a better team and you're liable to have enough individual moments of brilliance to sometimes get past the tactical limitations. If you're already a bad team and you use a bad non-tweaked defensive tactic you'll be destroyed - the tactics are the opportunity to level the field a bit. 

[Robson 07]

1 hour ago, Zemahh said:

I'd say your defensive block is primarily dictated by your formation, rather than Mentality.

With the LOE, you're not controlling actual distance from goal (e.g. "start pressing 60m from goal"), but rather how close/far from their starting positions should players initiate the press.

• Much Lower LOE = Wait until opposition comes much closer
• Lower LOE = Wait until opposition comes closer
• Higher LOE = Start pressing higher
• Much Higher LOE = Start pressing much higher

 similar to @Kuchiki and @Experienced Defender's 1st reply.

Makes sense.  Good post.

[Cult of Football Manager]

2 hours ago, Zemahh said:

I'd say your defensive block is primarily dictated by your formation, rather than Mentality.

With the LOE, you're not controlling actual distance from goal (e.g. "start pressing 60m from goal"), but rather how close/far from their starting positions should players initiate the press.

• Much Lower LOE = Wait until opposition comes much closer
• Lower LOE = Wait until opposition comes closer
• Higher LOE = Start pressing higher
• Much Higher LOE = Start pressing much higher

Lower LOE in-game description:

Since players' starting positions are determined by their formation, a Higher LOE w/ 4-4-2 might not be the same as w/ 4-2-3-1, for example. If you compare the in-game graphics below, 4-4-2 with maxed out lines still only has two players in the final third, whereas 4-2-3-1 with the same settings has four:

With 4-4-2, you might not even need to use a Lower LOE to achieve a low block, since the formation is already bottom-heavy by itself, whereas with top-heavy formations you may.

Here's an example of Tackles and Interceptions with an aggressive 4-4-2 I'm currently using in my save (Higher D-Line, Much Higher LOE, More Urgent Pressing):

Still only a mid-high block, despite the very aggressive settings.

Mentality does adjust the lines slightly, but I'd say your choices of formation and LOE are far more important.

I just want to mention your 442 reference I feel is correct and exactly what I found when doing some real life replications in a 442 system. 

My personal 442 is very aggressive in pressing settings but can drop very early and very often which I think your analysis indicates.

[Kcinnay]

22 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Given how extremely passive your tactic was - with virtually no resistance at all - it would have been no surprise if there had been 100  shots. But never mind.

In the 2010 game between Barcelona and Inter, the return of the semi-final of the CL, Barcelona played for more than an hour against ten Inter players who had no intention to play forward, that was the hyperbole of extremely (!) passive defending. Barcelona won 1-0, managed to get 20 shots (not 70, not 100), 4 (four!) on target. I can't find the exact possession stats, but if I remember correctly, Inter had 18% possession. Whoscored says they had a passing success ratio of 54%. It was the lowest block possible, no striker, no attack duties in FM language, and even then, Inter only conceded one goal and four shots on targets.

That game was peak Mourinho, a masterclass in defending, but lower, more passive defending than that was not possible. According to your logics, Inter should have been slaughtered, which they weren't. The point of this thread: it isn't normal or logical to park the bus and concede 70 shots on target, even with a huge quality difference. I've won games with 20-0 in my (real) coaching career against minnows, attack after attack, high tempo, but even then, we 'only' managed to get around 40 shots on target.

[crusadertsar]

1 hour ago, Kcinnay said:

In the 2010 game between Barcelona and Inter, the return of the semi-final of the CL, Barcelona played for more than an hour against ten Inter players who had no intention to play forward, that was the hyperbole of extremely (!) passive defending. Barcelona won 1-0, managed to get 20 shots (not 70, not 100), 4 (four!) on target. I can't find the exact possession stats, but if I remember correctly, Inter had 18% possession. Whoscored says they had a passing success ratio of 54%. It was the lowest block possible, no striker, no attack duties in FM language, and even then, Inter only conceded one goal and four shots on targets.

That game was peak Mourinho, a masterclass in defending, but lower, more passive defending than that was not possible. According to your logics, Inter should have been slaughtered, which they weren't. The point of this thread: it isn't normal or logical to park the bus and concede 70 shots on target, even with a huge quality difference. I've won games with 20-0 in my (real) coaching career against minnows, attack after attack, high tempo, but even then, we 'only' managed to get around 40 shots on target.

Again like others did before, you are using examples of real life football to apply to a problem with FM game. That does not help the OP's issue at all. The way the game works is different from how real football does. 

Like @Experienced Defender alluded to before, you can't compare apples and oranges. You could be a world-class coach like Pep Guardiola and you could still be garbage at the game. Especially if you don't understand the intricacies of ME and the current tactic creator. It's like saying that a five star army general should instantly be a pro at playing a war strategy game like Total War or something. Or a real football player should be amazing at FIFA. There is a huge difference between video game and real life. So stop comparing apples and oranges. 

I dont know what is so hard to understand. In the game, by the game mechanic logic, if you defend too passively and tell your defenders to sit back ( as you would by using lowest DL and lowest LOE + defesive mentality) you are basically giving a superior AI team license to attack you from around your box. And not even world-class centrebacks can withstand that for long. 

As it stands the game works as intended. On the other hand if you or others who don't like seeing this happening and don't agree how defending is modeled in the game then stop tip toeing around and just bring it up as an issue in a different part of the forum. There's is section for complaints like that I believe.

Edited May 4, 2021 by crusadertsar
Added more to the original reply

[Kcinnay]

16 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

Again like others did before, you are using examples of real life football to apply to a problem with FM game. That does not help the OP's issue at all. The way the game works is different from how real football does. 

Like @Experienced Defender alluded to before, you can't compare apples and oranges. You could be a world-class coach like Pep Guardiola and you could still be garbage at the game. Especially if you don't understand the intricacies of ME and the current tactic creator. It's like saying that a five star army general should instantly be a pro at playing a war strategy game like Total War or something. Or a real football player should be amazing at FIFA. There is a huge difference between video game and real life. So stop comparing apples and oranges. 

I dont know what is so hard to understand. In the game, by the game mechanic logic, if you defend too passively and tell your defenders to sit back ( as you would by using lowest DL and lowest LOE + defesive mentality) you are basically giving a superior AI team license to attack you from around your box. And not even world-class centrebacks can withstand that for long. 

I don't compare apples and oranges, I compare real apples and plastic apples. If you can't apply some basic football knowledge to the most realistic football simulation game, then the game is failing. I've never encountered an FM game with 70 shots on target, for the record, I don't have the impression that it's an arcade game where you can have a one shot per minute ratio, but plainly dismissing the notion that defending in a passive manner shouldn't be treated so harshly by the game as a lack of knowledge of understanding is quite bold. Speaking about bold and boldness: I can read without highlighted Ctrl + B phrases.

[crusadertsar]

7 minutes ago, Kcinnay said:

I don't compare apples and oranges, I compare real apples and plastic apples. If you can't apply some basic football knowledge to the most realistic football simulation game, then the game is failing. I've never encountered an FM game with 70 shots on target, for the record, I don't have the impression that it's an arcade game where you can have a one shot per minute ratio, but plainly dismissing the notion that defending in a passive manner shouldn't be treated so harshly by the game as a lack of knowledge of understanding is quite bold. Speaking about bold and boldness: I can read without highlighted Ctrl + B phrases.

Okay. I give up. This arguement is pointless as I can clearly see that you already made up your own conclusion about the game. 

Edited May 4, 2021 by crusadertsar

[themadsheep2001]

This thread has largely been a car crash, and despite the likes of zemaah and Crusadertstar trying to keep it productive, hasn't got much better. Since we've not seen the OP for sometime im closing it

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