4-3-3 Frustration

[Diogo28]

 

Hey,

 

I've started a new save with FCBarcelona and couldnt be more frustrated. 

I'm trying to play a somewhat agressive possession football, trying to emulate a 2-3-5 attack formation, with the wing backs very stretched and the wingers being the main goal threats with inside cuts. 

The midfield trio should be the feeders, but somehow the mezalla+ RPM is not working as i expected. I've tried 2 mezzalas but this makes the MC go too much up the field. Also the DLF is kinda useless in scoring/assisting.

What happens most of the time is that we struggle against average and weaker teams, not having many goal chances and ocasionally conceding a goal in the counter.

The worst part are the big games, i was beaten 7-1 by Liverpool (even though LFC is OP) after getting a close draw in the home game.

 

I like to start the games with narrow + balanced, switching to positive/wide when dominating or cautious+lower tempo when being dominated. 

 

First eleven: 

Stegen

Roberto (stay wider) - Pique - Lenglet - Alba (stay wider)

Busquets

De Jong (RPM) - Pedri (Mezz)

Messi (roam)- Griezmann - Fati/Dembelé (roam)

 

Any hints to improve? 

 

 

*forgot the "Drible less" TI*

 

 

Edited May 6, 2021 by Diogo28

[Keyzer Soze]

The problem, imo, with your tactic is that, by having such risky wing roles (attacking wingbacks plus inside forward on attack) you need to be a bit more conservative in your midfield role choices.

but instead, you have choose two roles with "roam from position" hard coded, and one of them (MEZ) with the make more forward runs also hard coded.

On top of  that you have also choose very agressive out of possession instructions, with "much more" everything.

So you are Barcelona, you will be facing teams that will defend narrow, sit deep, and wait for your attacks. And you will attack, with a very high D-Line, with the wide players very high up in the pitch, with both midfield players getting into the box... leaving poor half-back and both central defenders in the back,

You don't have anyone to recycle the ball when you are in possession, so i'm not surprise that you are having difficulties to score, and are conceding opportunities for your opponent to counter attack you.

I suggest that you change the out of possession instructions to something less agressive... perhaps higher D-Line, standard LOE and more pressing. Change your RPM(s) to a DLP(s) so that, in combine with the HB(d) you'll get two players in the back to recycle possession and change one of the Wingbacks to a support duty.

Something like this:

DLF(s)

IW(s)                                       IF(a)

DLP(s)         MEZ(s)

HB(d)

WB(a)      CD(d)      CD(d)      WB(s)

SK(s)

Don't know if DLF(s) is the right choice for Griezmann, perhaps F9 or even T(a) could suit better his atributes.

Now, for the in possession instructions i don't understand the idea of having much shorter passing, with POOD with WBIB and narrow width. On top of that you are also giving the TI to dribble less...  in a team like Barcelona that have excelent dribblers...

Anyway, i think your instructions are taking away the unpredictability style of play that a team like Barcelona should have, and have the players to play it. I would remove the WBIB, narrow width, dribble less and much shorter passing, and just go with the POOD and be more expressive instructions.

Balanced mentality seems a good option in terms of mentality.

I would probably also choose the "counter press" instruction.

[Diogo28]

11 minutes ago, Keyzer Soze said:

 

So you are Barcelona, you will be facing teams that will defend narrow, sit deep, and wait for your attacks. And you will attack, with a very high D-Line, with the wide players very high up in the pitch, with both midfield players getting into the box... leaving poor half-back and both central defenders in the back,

You don't have anyone to recycle the ball when you are in possession, so i'm not surprise that you are having difficulties to score, and are conceding opportunities for your opponent to counter attack you.

I suggest that you change the out of possession instructions to something less agressive... perhaps higher D-Line, standard LOE and more pressing. Change your RPM(s) to a DLP(s) so that, in combine with the HB(d) you'll get two players in the back to recycle possession and change one of the Wingbacks to a support duty.

Something like this:

DLF(s)

IW(s)                                       IF(a)

DLP(s)         MEZ(s)

HB(d)

WB(a)      CD(d)      CD(d)      WB(s)

SK(s)

 

Now, for the in possession instructions i don't understand the idea of having much shorter passing, with POOD with WBIB and narrow width. On top of that you are also giving the TI to dribble less...  in a team like Barcelona that have excelent dribblers...

Anyway, i think your instructions are taking away the unpredictability style of play that a team like Barcelona should have, and have the players to play it. I would remove the WBIB, narrow width, dribble less and much shorter passing, and just go with the POOD and be more expressive instructions.

 

Thanks! 

I've tried more possession TI's because i was getting average of 40% possession, not controlling any game. Probably overdid it, but POOD  and Be More expressive wouldnt be a change from overkill to underkill? 

I dont  want 60% of possession and 0 chances, but I'm looking forward for a short pass oriented build up with a fluid attack.

I have some doubts about narrow/wide. I want lots of central play, with the MC feeding both wingers when cutting inside. What would suit better? In my view, narrow would suit best against strong teams (easier to keep possession) while wide would be the option for narrow defenses. 

 

Balanced mentality, PooD, shorter passing (1 notch to the left), Be More Expressive and Narrow is still too much? 

I'm not sure about the left side, seems a bit conservative.

Gonna make a few changes and try it! 

 

[CARRERA]

4 minutes ago, Diogo28 said:

I want lots of central play, with the MC feeding both wingers when cutting inside.

As you got plenty of help here already, I just want to not one thing. The IW role does only cut inside when he (the player) has possession. The IF tho does also cut inside when any player of your team has possession.

if you want your team to play through the middle I would not narrow the width, as attacking width might be needed to break down defenses by pulling players out wide to open up space centrally.

if you want to encourage your team to play through the middle I would go with the regarding focus play instruction

[Ripamon]

16 minutes ago, Diogo28 said:

 

Thanks! 

I've tried more possession TI's because i was getting average of 40% possession, not controlling any game. Probably overdid it, but POOD  and Be More expressive wouldnt be a change from overkill to underkill? 

I dont  want 60% of possession and 0 chances, but I'm looking forward for a short pass oriented build up with a fluid attack.

I have some doubts about narrow/wide. I want lots of central play, with the MC feeding both wingers when cutting inside. What would suit better? In my view, narrow would suit best against strong teams (easier to keep possession) while wide would be the option for narrow defenses. 

 

Balanced mentality, PooD, shorter passing (1 notch to the left), Be More Expressive and Narrow is still too much? 

I'm not sure about the left side, seems a bit conservative.

Gonna make a few changes and try it! 

 

Your hitherto Low possession stats have less to do with a lack of possession TIS, and more to do with the lack of options in possession, especially width.

Even if your wingbacks are on attack duty, on a balanced team mentality they will generally mainly offer themselves high up the pitch when the attack is already constructed. But with the combination of shorter passing and narrow width you are almost instructing your central players to not pass to them... So they instead try some central combination in an already congested area, or shoot and lose the ball, or get tackled due to indecision.

Simply providing more width in your play will allow the wide forwards to make more threatening out-to-in runs, where they drag their marker to the flank and then accelerate inside to the free space.

Even without shorter passing or low tempo instructions or even Pood, the right setup will guarantee more than 60% possession in most games, with the high passing accuracy to match 

Finally, it is my opinion that cautious and balanced mentalities are no longer ideal for creating replications like modern barca or modern city.

These are offensive sides who extol penetration over possession. Possession is simply used to construct a consistent base through which penetration can be achieved. 

I would say positive offers the best balance in terms of creating a penetrative and possessive base.

Then you can mitigate risk by adjusting duties. Should lead to more goals. Just my opinion though 

Edited May 6, 2021 by Ripamon

[Experienced Defender]

51 minutes ago, Diogo28 said:

I've tried more possession TI's because i was getting average of 40% possession, not controlling any game

Possession-friendly TIs are not going to help a lot if your setup of roles and duties is not set up in a possession-friendly manner. Because the setup of roles and duties is the most important part of any tactic or tactical style. Instructions are effective only when they match the setup of R & D.

[Diogo28]

1 hour ago, Experienced Defender said:

Possession-friendly TIs are not going to help a lot if your setup of roles and duties is not set up in a possession-friendly manner. Because the setup of roles and duties is the most important part of any tactic or tactical style. Instructions are effective only when they match the setup of R & D.

What kind of changes would you suggest for improving this setup?

The main ideia is getting a line of 5 when attacking with the MC feeding them.

 

[Experienced Defender]

24 minutes ago, Diogo28 said:

What kind of changes would you suggest for improving this setup?

The main ideia is getting a line of 5 when attacking with the MC feeding them.

 

When it comes to roles and duties, I would start with something like this (taking into account that you manage a world-class team like Barca):

F9

IWsu                             IFat

MEZat   RPM

HB

WBsu   CDde  CDde  WBsu

SKsu(de)

Regarding the instructions, I would definitely avoid narrow attacking width. Simply because when you manage a top team, most opponents will play very defensively against you, looking to compress the space in the middle. So why would you want to further deny yourself space by attacking them exactly where they are most densely packed? 

Then I would not insist on much shorter passing. Just shorter should suffice. 

I also would not be so extremely aggressive with defensive TIs. Because while it does put a lot of pressure on the opposition, it also reduces the space for your players up front to potentially take advantage of. So rather than going to extremes of any kind, I would always prefer a more balanced approach. It can be aggressive of course, but in a more sophisticated and intelligent way. 

Adding occasional tweaks such as overlap right or/and underlap left can also be helpful in certain situations, especially when struggling to break down ultra-defensive opposition.

[nully29]

Change it to:

 

Narrow to wide

Remove work the ball in the box

 

Those two will bring your wingbacks into the play

Change wingbacks duties to support. 

Change CMs to BWMs and BBM.

Change ST to something penetrating, such as AF

Reduce pressing

Drop LOE a tick, but make OI to press ops back four and a goalie.

Add offside trap

 

 

[afailed10]

If you want a possession heavy system aka patient build up, you don't need attacking wingbacks. Besides they greatly undermine your defensive solidity. The HB as well is a bit tricky as it may create unwanted gaps in your defensive midfield. I'd remove the be more expressive shout and change messi to a trequartista perhaps. The IF-A has good freedom and a suitable duty for a player like God but might be too advanced. You need someone providing width and someone keeping CB's busy.

[Diogo28]

Thanks for all the insights! Gonna try some tweaks.

 

[Diogo28]

I've made some tweaks, but i'm still barely creating any chances.

My first save is always with FCPorto, with a more direct play style an it's way easier, but possession tactics for some reason aren't working for me.

 

I've lowered the tempo in order to give the WB time to join the attack, changed de AMR to Treq because the IF goes forward too quickly.

I'm having lots of possession but the attack usually end in crosses, which is almost the opposite of what i want.

The midfield combo feels weird. The mezzala gets in the area a lot. Would an AP work here? Or 2 playmakers would be too much?

 

The left side seems fit for an overload, would that help?

 

 

 

This match was the perfect example. The goal was from a set piece. Apart from that, 0 chances.

Edited May 7, 2021 by Diogo28

[nully29]

24 minutes ago, Diogo28 said:

I've made some tweaks, but i'm still barely creating any chances.

My first save is always with FCPorto, with a more direct play style an it's way easier, but possession tactics for some reason aren't working for me.

 

I've lowered the tempo in order to give the WB time to join the attack, changed de AMR to Treq because the IF goes forward too quickly.

I'm having lots of possession but the attack usually end in crosses, which is almost the opposite of what i want.

The midfield combo feels weird. The mezzala gets in the area a lot. Would an AP work here? Or 2 playmakers would be too much?

 

The left side seems fit for an overload, would that help?

 

 

 

This match was the perfect example. The goal was from a set piece. Apart from that, 0 chances.

Attacks end up with crosses because your striker would not run for through balls. Also because dominating against deep defensive lines does result in crosses, which is one of the weapons against deep defenses. If you had a target man, you would create/score a lot. But since you don't want crosses, try this:

 Change ST to some penetrating role like poacher or AF, so he would open up for through balls. Change mezzala to BBM. Change DLP to CMa. You don't want your playmaking to come from deep, do you? You need that killer pass from AMC area. It should come from whoever is your best passer. He should be CMa or AP or even AMC. You may also consider changing HB to BWMd for better gap control in the defense.

 

Edited May 7, 2021 by nully29

[afailed10]

11 horas atrás, Diogo28 disse:

I've made some tweaks, but i'm still barely creating any chances.

My first save is always with FCPorto, with a more direct play style an it's way easier, but possession tactics for some reason aren't working for me.

 

I've lowered the tempo in order to give the WB time to join the attack, changed de AMR to Treq because the IF goes forward too quickly.

I'm having lots of possession but the attack usually end in crosses, which is almost the opposite of what i want.

The midfield combo feels weird. The mezzala gets in the area a lot. Would an AP work here? Or 2 playmakers would be too much?

 

The left side seems fit for an overload, would that help?

 

 

 

This match was the perfect example. The goal was from a set piece. Apart from that, 0 chances.

I'm running a similar system with Porto (crl) actually. After a very easy first season playing a more direct style. So far so good. I'm undefeated but I'm still tweaking things game by game as despite playing good football the results are narrow. Hopefully I'll have something good at least halfway through the season.

What I found out is that a playmaker from deep will actually attract opposition to press him and unlock space for more advanced CM's. Works well as, with the more patient approach, he will eventually get into dangerous areas and play a through ball for either the WB's or a penetrating forward.

I personally only give roles with attacking duty and more risky passes to players with +15 vision. Ideally you'd want anticipation and decisions too. But that's part of the squad building. So I have like 1 attack duty only because my team is young and still not good enough.

You could also try Messi in the center as a treq and have both Fait and Griezman doing forward runs and 1-2s with the middle players. I also have Work ball into the box, that reduces crosses greatly.

Overall you got to watch the games and see where the ball is being lost and tweak accordingly. The basics of possession is to have players always in the line of sight. Good luck and have fun!

[Yellowbucket58]

I'm currently running a system similar to yours and what I've found that worked great is not using the TI Be more expressive. You're using a Treq, Mezzala, DLP, IW which are all inherently agressive, and expressive positions so using that TI is an overkill.  Using that TI might lead to unnecessary risks which will lead in needlessly losing possession of the ball.

Edited May 8, 2021 by Yellowbucket58

[Ripamon]

12 hours ago, afailed10 said:

I'm running a similar system with Porto (crl) actually. After a very easy first season playing a more direct style. So far so good. I'm undefeated but I'm still tweaking things game by game as despite playing good football the results are narrow. Hopefully I'll have something good at least halfway through the season.

What I found out is that a playmaker from deep will actually attract opposition to press him and unlock space for more advanced CM's. Works well as, with the more patient approach, he will eventually get into dangerous areas and play a through ball for either the WB's or a penetrating forward.

I personally only give roles with attacking duty and more risky passes to players with +15 vision. Ideally you'd want anticipation and decisions too. But that's part of the squad building. So I have like 1 attack duty only because my team is young and still not good enough.

You could also try Messi in the center as a treq and have both Fait and Griezman doing forward runs and 1-2s with the middle players. I also have Work ball into the box, that reduces crosses greatly.

Overall you got to watch the games and see where the ball is being lost and tweak accordingly. The basics of possession is to have players always in the line of sight. Good luck and have fun!

I would argue that anticipation and decisions and even passing are more important than vision for this.

[afailed10]

Em 08/05/2021 em 11:44, Ripamon disse:

I would argue that anticipation and decisions and even passing are more important than vision for this.

They are all important but I tend to leave roles with take more risks for players with higher vision.

Naturally it's more complex than that. I wouldn't use a player with low decisions and composure in a deep position. For the same reason I prefer high flair players in the most advanced positions. Keeping possession is a balance between risk and reward.

[Experienced Defender]

@saware Sorry mate, but you'll have to start your own separate thread if you want a discussion about your tactic or tactical issues. This one is solely about the OP's tactic.

[gokalpcakir1]

                                                               DLF(at)

                                  IF(s)                                                      IW(s)

                                                  RPM(s)               MEZ(s)

                                                                HB(de)

                                 WB(s)       CD(d)               CD(d)          WB(s)

                                                              SK(s)

I will also add the TIs I use when I turn on the pc, even though I have minor problems, I am productive.