Help keep the job[FM20]

[gofferson]

Hello, after good first season where we end in 4th possition, the 2nd season is an horror. After 15 games in the league we have only 4 wins and 7 losses and my boss give me one month to improve the situation. In 1st season we played 4312 and that was not bad so we start 2nd season with the same system, but after 8 games without win i decided to change to 532 formation but in this system i cant win games and create a lot of oportunites to score goal. 2nd thing is when we create ccc my strikers can't convert them. i have hope you can help in this situation and give some tips to keep my job

[Experienced Defender]

Regarding the first tactic:

- what's the idea with (or point of) two defend duties in the midfield (especially as the lateral defend duty is behind of the AF as the more attacking of the 2 strikers)?

- you have only 2 players up front, so the Prevent GKD instruction does not look like a good idea to me

- possession-oriented TIs such as short passing, PoD and WBIB do not really go hand in hand both with your formation and especially setup of roles and duties

- you are using a bit too aggressive defensive instructions - and needlessly so - which is even more of a problem considering your lower than optimal level of compactness (i.e. the DL-LOE distance)

The second tactic looks considerably better than the first one when it comes to the setup of roles and duties. The only tweak I would suggest is changing the LWB's duty into attack and then consequently removing the overlap left (because there will be a natural overlap anyway).

However, some of the instructions could be problematic. For example, much higher D-line can cause defensive issues if your defenders are lacking either speed or tactical intelligence. You also have a needless number of instructions in transition associated with keeper distribution. There is no need to be that much specific, especially when you already use the Play out of defence TI. 

[gofferson]

27 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Regarding the first tactic:

- what's the idea with (or point of) two defend duties in the midfield (especially as the lateral defend duty is behind of the AF as the more attacking of the 2 strikers)?

- you have only 2 players up front, so the Prevent GKD instruction does not look like a good idea to me

- possession-oriented TIs such as short passing, PoD and WBIB do not really go hand in hand both with your formation and especially setup of roles and duties

- you are using a bit too aggressive defensive instructions - and needlessly so - which is even more of a problem considering your lower than optimal level of compactness (i.e. the DL-LOE distance)

The second tactic looks considerably better than the first one when it comes to the setup of roles and duties. The only tweak I would suggest is changing the LWB's duty into attack and then consequently removing the overlap left (because there will be a natural overlap anyway).

However, some of the instructions could be problematic. For example, much higher D-line can cause defensive issues if your defenders are lacking either speed or tactical intelligence. You also have a needless number of instructions in transition associated with keeper distribution. There is no need to be that much specific, especially when you already use the Play out of defence TI. 

Thank you for your answer. The idea with bwm on defend duty behind AFat is to cover left side of pich when a wb is going up. I have a lot hard working midlefielders in team so thats why i have aggresive defensive instructions. The physical and mental atributes are above avarage at my defenders and i don't lost goals from killer balls. Lots of goals i lost from cross to far post and can't neutralize that.

[Gdansk]

1 minute ago, gofferson said:

Thank you for your answer. The idea with bwm on defend duty behind AFat is to cover left side of pich when a wb is going up. I have a lot hard working midlefielders in team so thats why i have aggresive defensive instructions. The physical and mental atributes are above avarage at my defenders and i don't lost goals from killer balls. Lots of goals i lost from cross to far post and can't neutralize that.

BWM S is still defensive enough, you have to remember you are playing three CBs already plus the CM D is pure defensive as well, so you have 5 pure defenders right now which is just too much. Since it's FM20 I'd put a WB A or depending on the player a CWB there as well, since in this system you are reliant on the WBs getting deep into the opponent's half. Against back 4s I'd try two strikers on A maybe since you can get easy 2v2 transitions like that.

But more important would be to remove all this possession stuff in the 5-3-2. Unless you are a crazy good team and can shift into 3-3-4 literally the entire game it's not a good formation for possession football generally. If teams already are playing very deep formations like 4-2DM stuff or even 5-2DM in Italy after your success I'd think about switching to a more natural possession formation like 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3 all together if you are struggling and want to do everything to maximize results and not want to stay with a narrow formation religiously.

[Bluebird123]

These formations live and die by the quality of the FBs, if they are bad going forward this system is a non starter unfortunately. I had a great Chelsea team which dominated for 3 seasons playing a 5-2-1-2 but that's because my two wingbacks were world class and had no weakness, whenever they were out of the team we really struggled because I could never get good enough backups. 

I don't like Play out of defence in in back threes because the TI pulls your midfield deep to help build up, in a system that already has 3 players in that zone do you really need more dropping in? I feel you will isolate the strikers. Having your GK distribute to your CBs is much better, especially if one of them has decent passing, they can initiate attacks from deep without the need to slowly build up and potentially lose the ball due to the high press. 

Your midfield is way too cautious, you don't need two defend duties in there, one is enough (I'd take a BWM over a CM-D because the BWM is more aggressive and will help win the ball higher up, you can afford this aggression with the 3 CBs)

I'd personally move one of the CMs into the AM position if you have a player who can play there, the Mez isn't adding anything to your midfield. A BWM-D/DLP/AM is a good balance but play around with the players you have. Work ball into box reduces crosses, that's the opposite of what you want here, likewise with the shorter passing, you're just limiting your options when you have aggressive runners (Mez, WBs, AF). I'd leave it on standard. 

But before you do any of that, refer to the first point about your WBs actual quality. Can they dribble, cross, are they fast? Do they have stamina and work rate to get up and down the flank for 90 minutes? If their attributes are low in these areas you should reconsider your system and perhaps move toward a system with wingers, especially if you want to play possession football (which your TIs indicate)

[Gdansk]

You also have to remember this is FM20, imo it's not as bad in 21 but in 20 these 5-3-2 and 4-Diamond-2 formations can get totally destroyed by 4-3-3 and 4-2-3-1 teams with attacking full backs. Played with Inter in FM20 and wanted to play the Conte system no matter what and it was crazy playing against Liverpool, City, Bayern-

[gofferson]

There are results after tweaks. first 4 games were fantastic. Fast and fluid transitions goals from strikers well compact defense. With udinese we have bad luck a lot of chances to score goal but unlucky this time, with atalanta we lost after penalties unlucky again, but game with lazio and rest are disaster. My players forget how to play in style like in the first 4 games after change. What do you think about that.

 

[Experienced Defender]

How about making these couple of small subtle tweaks:

AF    DLFsu

SS

DLPsu     BWMsu

CWBsu                            WBat

CDde  CDst CDde

SKde

mentality - start with balanced

in possession - play out of defence (and nothing else for now)

in transition - counter-press (and nothing else for now)

out of possession - higher D-line + split block with the front 3

[Gdansk]

In FM20 you'll just have problems with this formation against 4-2-3-1, 4-3-3 style no matter what.

Biggest strength of this formation with this team is having three guys up front being able to transition quick before opponent has players back, so as long as you don't play at home against a team that plays on Cautious or lower no reason to take away counter.

 

Why is this comment shadowbanned again? I just try to help this guy.

Edited June 6, 2021 by Gdansk

[Experienced Defender]

21 minutes ago, Gdansk said:

Why is this comment shadowbanned again?

All your comments in this thread are normally visible like all others, so I don't know what "shadowbanning" you are talking about?

The same goes for your comment in another thread, which you also claimed was "shadowbanned". But it's not and we see it normally.

Maybe there is some problem with your computer or something like that that prevents only you from seeing it, but we see it without any problem.

[Gdansk]

50 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

All your comments in this thread are normally visible like all others, so I don't know what "shadowbanning" you are talking about?

The same goes for your comment in another thread, which you also claimed was "shadowbanned". But it's not and we see it normally.

Maybe there is some problem with your computer or something like that that prevents only you from seeing it, but we see it without any problem.

No sir, when I'm normally logged in on my computer I see it, but like this morning I checked the forum on my phone where I was logged out and I couldn't see my posts in the thread. It showed the last post made from the OP from like an hour ago when I made the post 10 minutes ago, and when I checked into the thread it just wasn't there.

Will be the same with this as well probably. You can delete this of course as it's not for the topic but just to make it clear so it can be checked. Yessir, when I load the forum up in an incognito tab where I'm logged out it just shows your post from 48 minutes ago.

Edited June 6, 2021 by Gdansk

[gofferson]

Thanks guys for help. The reason why im playing narrow system is lack of attacking wingers maybe in next season ill buy some wingers and change tactic.

4 hours ago, Gdansk said:

No sir, when I'm normally logged in on my computer I see it, but like this morning I checked the forum on my phone where I was logged out and I couldn't see my posts in the thread. It showed the last post made from the OP from like an hour ago when I made the post 10 minutes ago, and when I checked into the thread it just wasn't there.

Will be the same with this as well probably. You can delete this of course as it's not for the topic but just to make it clear so it can be checked. Yessir, when I load the forum up in an incognito tab where I'm logged out it just shows your post from 48 minutes ago.

I see normally all your post on computer and phone where im logged out.

[gofferson]

8 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

How about making these couple of small subtle tweaks:

AF    DLFsu

SS

DLPsu     BWMsu

CWBsu                            WBat

CDde  CDst CDde

SKde

mentality - start with balanced

in possession - play out of defence (and nothing else for now)

in transition - counter-press (and nothing else for now)

out of possession - higher D-line + split block with the front 3

Results after that changes. During matches i only change a mentality when we lost goal, role of CWB to WB and duty of right WB when we want to hold a result. Thank you for your support guys. Im stubborn so ill try last time this tactic in next season  1st match with changes was vs Atalanta after Sassuolo game  

Edited June 6, 2021 by gofferson

[Experienced Defender]

9 minutes ago, gofferson said:

During matches i only change a mentality when we lost goal

Why do you change the mentality? And what kind of change do you make (to more "attacking" or more "defensive")?

Btw, what do you mean by "when we lost goal"? The word "lost" sounds confusing in this context. 

[gofferson]

30 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Why do you change the mentality? And what kind of change do you make (to more "attacking" or more "defensive")?

Btw, what do you mean by "when we lost goal"? The word "lost" sounds confusing in this context. 

Sorry for my English ;) I mean when opponents score against us first goal or we lossing by one goal i change the mentality to attacking until we score goal. After that i back to standard or positive mentality . 

[Experienced Defender]

14 hours ago, gofferson said:

mean when opponents score against us first goal or we lossing by one goal i change the mentality to attacking until we score goal

If it works for you that way, then great. However, a mere mentality change neither improves attacking play nor changes the core playing style. The mentality is not about that.

[gofferson]

1 hour ago, Experienced Defender said:

If it works for you that way, then great. However, a mere mentality change neither improves attacking play nor changes the core playing style. The mentality is not about that.

It's all about risk. When we lose by one goal we don't have anything to lose so i want from my players to take more risk. I understand mentality in this way.

[CARRERA]

14 minutes ago, gofferson said:

It's all about risk. When we lose by one goal we don't have anything to lose so i want from my players to take more risk. I understand mentality in this way.

That’s correct sir, but you may need to change your set of roles and duties and instructions as well, to fit your new approach. 

For example, it doesn’t make sense to go with an attacking mentality, where all players decision making is about to move both players and the ball forward, to denie penetration with ultra short passing instructions and no players who are instructed to create depth and penetrate space. What will happen is: your attacking line will be compressed with no options to move the ball forward and your team will most likely loose possession, try a nonsense cross into a packed box or some sort of long ranged shot. With luck you may score, but it’s highly inefficient. 

Edited June 7, 2021 by CARRERA

[gofferson]

47 minutes ago, CARRERA said:

That’s correct sir, but you may need to change your set of roles and duties and instructions as well, to fit your new approach. 

For example, it doesn’t make sense to go with an attacking mentality, where all players decision making is about to move both players and the ball forward, to denie penetration with ultra short passing instructions and no players who are instructed to create depth and penetrate space. What will happen is: your attacking line will be compressed with no options to move the ball forward and your team will most likely loose possession, try a nonsense cross into a packed box or some sort of long ranged shot. With luck you may score, but it’s highly inefficient. 

I agree with you with mentality. Im changing duty of my attacking WB to support and try to play more direct passing with standard tempo. If it doesn't work I add pass into space TI and early crosses. Im still working about understanding combinations of roles, duties, mentality and TI's to get more fluidity to attacks.

Edited June 7, 2021 by gofferson