Feedback on my tactics/formation please

[Moby_Spurs]

Hi all - long time lurker, but finally took the leap to join up this morning.

I've been playing since CM93.  However, I have finally realised this has been working against me, as you can no longer just play as an arcade game and keep picking a "3-2-5 + Run Forward + Attack" and playing every match the same!  

I've recently gone deeper-dive and have spent serious time reading up on creating a balanced formation, and furthermore appreciating  the benefits of playing on 'Cautious' or 'Balanced', or sometimes on 'Positive'....  

I have been playing for a season or so managing Leicester City and think we are doing pretty well overall.  Lots of on the fly tweaking and learning on the job of course, but I've kept us in the top 4, so I think I'm over-performing (well, a little more so than Brendan Rodgers anyway!)  

I feel we're playing quite conservatively but are good at holding possesion, often pinching goals from long throws, corners, or a moment of magic from someone (although Corner goals have slowed recently, damn you AI!)  But overall, we are winning a decent point of games, and are grinding out draws rather than losing - even when we're not having the best of performances.  (First World Problems, eh!) 

Goals conceded is low (I changed Kasper out for Onana in goal, and he has been unreal), but we only ever score one or two.  We never give anyone a good old fashioned pumping, even when we probably should.  Consequently my player rating averages never seem great (as not as many goals/assists to bump the ratings up).  

Also my strikers don't seem to score too often from open play - often shots blocked, or the open play goals come from the wide men instead (Harvey Barnes in AML as a IFs, or Under/Chukweuze at AMR as an IWs).

I don't like pushing the Mentality to 'Positive' or 'Attacking' too often, as it suddenly feels too open and uncoordinated!  (I've been watching games on Extended Highlights now so have a greater appreciation of what is going on than before when I was on 'Key moment' only). I've gone full circle from CM93 here - all out attack seems too scary, and I now sit on cautious/balanced. (maybe that's just because I'm 28 years older and its gone the same way as my driving style has changed from being a 20 year old, to now pushing 50 and turning into "Driving Miss Daisy"...  )

In terms of general housekeeping, I've got 2 corner tactics to mix it up and have adjusted all set pieces, which we also regularly train for.  I've also got no PI's selected, and also train out any traits which clash with the selected Roles.

Anyway, a lot to unpack there and I would really appreciate some feedback, questions and/or suggestions on my tactic please, and the key points as summarised here: -

1 - Team Mentality:  any views on the above conundrum?  Can I get more goals/spank the weaker teams just by pushing up Mentality, or should I do something else.  (i tried it last night against relegated Sheff Utd in the FA Cup - made 35 chances, lost 1-0 to their only shot - ahhhh, welcome back CM93 I've missed you....!)  

2 - Getting my strikers scoring: should I worry about it, can it be improved, or just leave as is?  My existing players best roles are typically AF, P, & PF. (no DLF or CF).

3 - I'd like to get another Attack role into the wide men, but having read roles/partnerships I think it will leave me too open on whichever side I do it?  (For example, could one flank have a Fullback/Attack and Winger/Support, then the opposite flank have a Fullback/Support and a Winger/Attack?)

4 - My DMC:  Halfback or DMd?  Both roles seem to balance ok, but are there benefits elsewhere? 

5 - Fullbacks:  FBa or WBs?  Again, both roles seem to balance ok - FBa leaves a big gap behind which I don't like, but I feel a Wingback role should be played with no wide support in the attacking third. (Unless my IW & IF don't count as wide attacking support?)

6 - Team Instructions: Views in general please? - anything silly or incompatible here?  My gut feel is to have as few as possible and just let clever players make good decisions wherever I can? I do tinker here a lot though as I feel its hard to gauge impact sometimes....

Work Ball Into Box causes me most mental dithering.  I feel like its a good idea, but then wonder if removing it will 'take the handbrake' off, let the players make their own higher risk decisions and perhaps score more goals... or, will it just kill my possession and mean a lower goals/shots %.  I keep flip-flopping on my mindset here.

7 - Tempo + Passing length?  I'd love to play short and fast passes (wannabe Pep)... But selecting fast tempo + short passing seems to have horrific consequences in the FM world!

 

Thanks guys, looking forward to being ripped a new one by you all, Dragons Den/X-Factor Style!  

Please Be Kind.  

 

Edited June 25, 2021 by Moby_Spurs
missed a point

[Craigus89]

Have you read the below?

https://community.sigames.com/forums/topic/465977-developing-my-4123dm-wide-tiki-taka/

This thread, and the 'possession with intent' thread linked within were proper light bulb threads for me.

You obviously dominate possession but perhaps struggle with goals. The thing that first strikes me is your Ti's are perhaps stifling your attacking players.

Your mentality is already neutral, and all 4 of the Ti's are discouraging any kind of direct or risky passing. Perhaps consider dropping 1 or 2 and see what affect it has.

For instance, I personally wont use 'work ball into box' on lower mentalities when an playing attacking style of football as I feel it really stifles progressive or risky passes/through balls.

I'm not familiar with the squad, but the usual advice of looking at the attributes and traits of the players in the positions you've chosen would stand too. If you have a guy who you don't want dribbling but has the trait 'runs with the ball often' that is obviously a mismatch.

[Moby_Spurs]

1 hour ago, Craigus89 said:

Have you read the below?

https://community.sigames.com/forums/topic/465977-developing-my-4123dm-wide-tiki-taka/

This thread, and the 'possession with intent' thread linked within were proper light bulb threads for me.

You obviously dominate possession but perhaps struggle with goals. The thing that first strikes me is your Ti's are perhaps stifling your attacking players.

Your mentality is already neutral, and all 4 of the Ti's are discouraging any kind of direct or risky passing. Perhaps consider dropping 1 or 2 and see what affect it has.

For instance, I personally wont use 'work ball into box' on lower mentalities when an playing attacking style of football as I feel it really stifles progressive or risky passes/through balls.

I'm not familiar with the squad, but the usual advice of looking at the attributes and traits of the players in the positions you've chosen would stand too. If you have a guy who you don't want dribbling but has the trait 'runs with the ball often' that is obviously a mismatch.

Great, thanks Craig.  I've removed 'Work Ball into Box' and upped the Tempo setting back to the standard.  Left everything else

Had Arsenal at home next game and came out of the blocks like a house on fire!  3-0 up in 25 minutes which is how it stayed-

• ST = 2 goals
• AML = 1 goal + 1 assist
• AMR = 2 assists 

Every out field player had a 7 to 8.5 average rating too.

Of course, it could be that I just caught the AI out, but it looked a promising change, so thank you.  I'll have a read of those links later and will consume and report back.

 

[Craigus89]

Hey that's great news. Get some more games under your belt with it to see if it was a one-off for sure. 

[facman]

With regards to question 3, I almost always have an attack/support balance on each flank. Currently I have a similar tactic to yours (exception is that my DM is pushed up into the MC position) and I have an IFA with FBS one the right flank and an IWS and WBA on the left. I also have 2 support duties and a defend duty in the middle. Finally I’m not a huge fan of the AP role, I prefer a DLP but that’s just me

[CARRERA]

How is your team doing with creating quality chances? I'm asking because i feel like your attacking play might lack penetration by just looking at your "mentality" and your "in possession" settings.

[Moby_Spurs]

On 25/06/2021 at 21:35, Craigus89 said:

Hey that's great news. Get some more games under your belt with it to see if it was a one-off for sure. 

Hi Craig. That guest guide/thread has confused the life out of me now! I’ll tackle the other guide soon when I get a chance. 
 

The positive changes didn’t last long. Won the next two games 1-0 again, but both set piece goals.  I’ve been switching between Work Ball into Box and Pass into Space to alter how we attack. Also fiddling with overlapping to try to see benefits from my strong full backs (playing as WBs). 
 

Still hard to really feel anything is making a difference. 

[Moby_Spurs]

On 26/06/2021 at 14:27, facman said:

With regards to question 3, I almost always have an attack/support balance on each flank. Currently I have a similar tactic to yours (exception is that my DM is pushed up into the MC position) and I have an IFA with FBS one the right flank and an IWS and WBA on the left. I also have 2 support duties and a defend duty in the middle. Finally I’m not a huge fan of the AP role, I prefer a DLP but that’s just me

Thanks Facman. Looking at my tactic, which flank would you have the attacking winger on please?  Do you find your attacking fullback on the opposite flank gets done in behind a lot though? 
 

I also like a MC as a DLP, but with my DMC being excellent, I’m lacking an attacking role in midfield and someone to get in behind the striker and feed him. I could make the Mez into an Attack role, but that stops him working nicely with the fullback behind him and he also doesn’t link up to the Striker instead preferring to drift wide. 
So I felt an APa gave me the playmaker role, the midfield attack duty, and also gets someone forward into the ‘number 10’ space vacated by not playing an AMC. 
very open to suggestions on how to fill that No10 void though! 

[Moby_Spurs]

On 26/06/2021 at 18:53, CARRERA said:

How is your team doing with creating quality chances? I'm asking because i feel like your attacking play might lack penetration by just looking at your "mentality" and your "in possession" settings.

Hi. Thanks for the comments. 
We’re creating lots of shots, sometimes recently with really low ‘Shots on Target’ % - mostly since I’ve started fiddling with the TIs in fairness. 
We do seem to miss a shed load though. In watching games I’m seeing us hit posts an incredible 5-6 times and sometimes from right in front of the goal! 
 

My mentality and TI’s are definitely stale. I’ve twice had feedback about the fans struggling to stay awake! However, the moment I went to try a Positive, I conceded a goal within 90 seconds of the first game!!! 

Edited June 28, 2021 by Moby_Spurs

[Moby_Spurs]

I got sent a link to a website called rate my tactic - which is apparently based on the FM Roles & Combinations Guide.  Not treating it as the bible obviously, but thought it was interesting to share these findings..... It doesn't seem to take into account the TI"s or the strengths and weaknesses of your playing staff though (obviously I guess) but as a template it might be worth looking at?  My tactic gets a 5 star rating, but as we know - its sterile as hell, and needs some 'secret sauce' to get us purring in attack!  I guess its jus a case of knowing which roles and TI's to over-ride now (and ignoring the warning messages) and to let the superior benefits that might bring, counteract any weaknesses or defensive openness that arise as a result. 

Hoping for some suggestions on which over-rides would be good please? thanks  

Edited June 28, 2021 by Moby_Spurs

[Moby_Spurs]

Just for fun and based on the various suggestions above, I've changed the flank roles to be alternative i.e. (was WBs and IW/IFs), to now FBa + IFs (left) and WBs + IWa (right).  I've also changed the MCL to be a DLPs from an APa.

Warning alert City!!!!  But, does it matter I guess!?

 

[CARRERA]

2 hours ago, Moby_Spurs said:

Hi. Thanks for the comments. 
We’re creating lots of shots, sometimes recently with really low ‘Shots on Target’ % - mostly since I’ve started fiddling with the TIs in fairness. 
We do seem to miss a shed load though. In watching games I’m seeing us hit posts an incredible 5-6 times and sometimes from right in front of the goal! 
 

My mentality and TI’s are definitely stale. I’ve twice had feedback about the fans struggling to stay awake! However, the moment I went to try a Positive, I conceded a goal within 90 seconds of the first game!!! 

Ok, thats great already. However it is important for a striker to actually shoot with relative low preassure from a defender and from inside the box. Can you provide a screenshot of your analysts scoring report? It looks like this:

Btw, how is your overall teams performances, is it adequate to your level of strength?

[Mitja]

433 is quite defensive formation it's really hard to get it to work well. It can be sterile in attack due to MCs behaviour. And it's hard to apply pressure against teams who play with DM or MCd which means almost all teams. You can play 4231 like 433 without having to deal with these two issues. That being said Real rules world on my save with fluid tiki-taka very similar to yours but with support duty MC instead of attack duty. 

[facman]

21 hours ago, Moby_Spurs said:

Thanks Facman. Looking at my tactic, which flank would you have the attacking winger on please?  Do you find your attacking fullback on the opposite flank gets done in behind a lot though? 
 

 

Looking at your original tactic, I would keep the left flank on support duties and change the DR to an attack duty. With an AP(A) on the left of midfield, having a DL as a WB(A) will reduce your defensive cover too much for my liking (you can see this on RateMyTactic, which is a site I use all the time... usually in work where people think I'm working on an extremely difficult issue as I frown endlessly at the computer  ).

Looking at your later tactics, you don't always have to worry about the warnings and Forward Movement Scores, but you should be aware of what they are telling you. My current primary tactic (Positive 4-2-3-1) with Everton (1st season) has a low solidity score on the left (and overall) and a low support score on the right. It also tells me I am not stretching the play from central midfield. That's all fine though, because I want my 2 MCs (Allan and Doucoure) to sit deeper and be available for ball recycling, and my most creative fullback (Digne) and AML (Bernard/Iwobi as Inverted winger) play on the left. Richarlison plays as an IFA on the right, with JamRod as a Shadow Striker, both penetrating the box supporting Calvert-Lewin. So my entire gameplan is about creativity on the left and centre, and penetration in the middle and right... and I accept that there are trade-offs (particularly defensively) that I have to monitor during the match.

My secondary tactic is a Positive 4-3-3 wide, with a flat 3 man midfield, with only 2 attack duties in the team (AML is an IFA and ST is a PFA) and 3 defend duties (2 centrebacks and the MC as a BWM(D). Everyone else is on a support duty. This helps to keep the team compact, and denies space to the opposition as they attack. I have the 'Pass Into Space' and 'Counter' TIs ticked, and my PF(A) and IF(A) are always ready to pounce on the ball played over the top of the defence. I beat Man U in this manner 2-0 earlier in the season with both goals coming from long through balls after winning possession due to my compactness. That tactic, however, does get the full 5 stars from RateMyTactic!

The one final thing I would note is that changing from Balanced to Positive will massively alter how a tactic plays out on the field, as the resultant duty applied to a player is a combination of the duty you set (D/S/A) and the overall mentality... something to be aware of!

[Moby_Spurs]

On 28/06/2021 at 17:34, CARRERA said:

Ok, thats great already. However it is important for a striker to actually shoot with relative low preassure from a defender and from inside the box. Can you provide a screenshot of your analysts scoring report? It looks like this:

Btw, how is your overall teams performances, is it adequate to your level of strength?

Hi mate - where would I find that report please?  (playing FM20 btw)

Thanks

[CARRERA]

25 minutes ago, Moby_Spurs said:

Hi mate - where would I find that report please?  (playing FM20 btw)

uhhhmmm, im not 100% sure, but it might be new at FM21. 

You usually can find it here tho

[Moby_Spurs]

1 hour ago, CARRERA said:

uhhhmmm, im not 100% sure, but it might be new at FM21. 

You usually can find it here tho

This game never fails to amaze me with things you didn't now were there!  FM20 looks similar, but not quite the same....  This is the closest I can get - I am in preseason though, so don't know if I might get more options once I've started playing competitive games.  Will check back in a few matches time.

 

 

[Moby_Spurs]

9 hours ago, facman said:

Looking at your original tactic, I would keep the left flank on support duties and change the DR to an attack duty. With an AP(A) on the left of midfield, having a DL as a WB(A) will reduce your defensive cover too much for my liking (you can see this on RateMyTactic, which is a site I use all the time... usually in work where people think I'm working on an extremely difficult issue as I frown endlessly at the computer  ).

Looking at your later tactics, you don't always have to worry about the warnings and Forward Movement Scores, but you should be aware of what they are telling you. My current primary tactic (Positive 4-2-3-1) with Everton (1st season) has a low solidity score on the left (and overall) and a low support score on the right. It also tells me I am not stretching the play from central midfield. That's all fine though, because I want my 2 MCs (Allan and Doucoure) to sit deeper and be available for ball recycling, and my most creative fullback (Digne) and AML (Bernard/Iwobi as Inverted winger) play on the left. Richarlison plays as an IFA on the right, with JamRod as a Shadow Striker, both penetrating the box supporting Calvert-Lewin. So my entire gameplan is about creativity on the left and centre, and penetration in the middle and right... and I accept that there are trade-offs (particularly defensively) that I have to monitor during the match.

My secondary tactic is a Positive 4-3-3 wide, with a flat 3 man midfield, with only 2 attack duties in the team (AML is an IFA and ST is a PFA) and 3 defend duties (2 centrebacks and the MC as a BWM(D). Everyone else is on a support duty. This helps to keep the team compact, and denies space to the opposition as they attack. I have the 'Pass Into Space' and 'Counter' TIs ticked, and my PF(A) and IF(A) are always ready to pounce on the ball played over the top of the defence. I beat Man U in this manner 2-0 earlier in the season with both goals coming from long through balls after winning possession due to my compactness. That tactic, however, does get the full 5 stars from RateMyTactic!

The one final thing I would note is that changing from Balanced to Positive will massively alter how a tactic plays out on the field, as the resultant duty applied to a player is a combination of the duty you set (D/S/A) and the overall mentality... something to be aware of!

Thanks @facman  Im in preseason and about to go into competitive games...  I've had a play with your suggestions + some ideas I've got from the Athletics FM Podcast, and tried to make it balance with the players I have too - not easy!  Will try a few things out then post an update.

I've gone with the Right Back (Ricardo Pereira) as an FBa, but also have an IF (Harvey Barnes) in front of him now set to attack as well!  Amazing Ratemytactic likes this as 5 stars so I'm going to try it.  I've balanced it out by setting the MCR (Tielemans) to be an APs (so have changed him to a support role).  

I've pinched some advice for the thread recommended above about "Attacking with Intent".  It seemed to favour lots of support roles, so I may change Pereira back to a WBs once I see how it plays out.

It also said to set most of the players to roam from position - that was on an older version, but I'm trying it on the front 5 anyway.  (ST, AML, AMR, MCL, MCR). 

Other than that, I like the idea of Barnes on attack as he's been a good source of goals anyway, and I wonder if I can get more from him in terms of link up play and him running in behind.  I've also spent big as I go into my 3rd season and have managed to grab Haaland up top (joys of FM20 still!).  He wants to be a PF, P, or AF, but I'm trying him as a CFs as that seems to link up really well - and hopefully I can train his stats up to be more suitable.  (Vardy has retired, so I've also got Rhian Brewster as a backup - again is a PF, AF - but hoping I can train him into a CFs).

Pics are what Im going to start this season with: -

[facman]

Looks really interesting. Don’t be afraid to increase the tempo which will help to increase the attacking intent. Also, I like the idea of the Mezzala on the left; you should get some interesting interplay between him, the inverted winger and the wingback. Changing one of those three to an attack duty will help if they are congesting each other.

I often start with a complete forward with a support duty upfront, then change it to an AF(A) if I think there is space behind the defensive line to play into.

I’ll be interested to see how the preseason goes!