Why does my coach now rate my player so highly & has he really improved?

[smeagoltonez]

Hi guys,

Just as I think I'm beginning to get a good grip on understanding the game a spanner gets thrown in the works! The spanner in this case is a 21 year old winger with good potential. Here are his attributes at the beginning of my save:

 

 

My best judger of CA says he's 'operating at Vanarama National level' & gives him 3 stars. He won't get into my first team (even as a sub) due to his attributes & I considered whether to sell or get him a decent loan but then got a loan offer from Barnet who are in the Vanarama National League. They promised to play him as a winger & give him first team football so I went for it.

I then went on holiday for a year to test & my coach now tells me that Bohui is a 'leading' League Two player despite him still being 3 stars & still not possessing attractive attributes.

Now I know stars don't mean much so I looked at his progress report for the past 12 months & it shows this:

 

 

The attribute numbers are exactly the same. So he's not really improved at all? FM Genie Scout tells me that his CA has increased by 2. Would this explain why he's gone from a 'Vanarama National level' player to a 'leading' League Two player despite not actually having an increase in attributes? But then, I don't think that coaches & scouts can see the CA so what gives? I noticed that his reputation has increased since his loan move. Could that be it?

I know that I should ignore coach reports but I'm just trying to better understand how the game works.

Thanks for any help & insight provided!

 

 

[CARRERA]

I noticed, that players who had regular playtime at a specific level will get an increased rating in terms of "hes a player for league x" not particular in his actual star ratings. The stars tho do match against your own squad and to some extend the league you are playing in, where a 3 star player is always based around your regualr starting 11 skillwise. So increase or drop of squad quality does impact the start rating of your existing players.

For me usually the best indication is to identify one of your regular starters with enough match exprience in your league thats at least considered as a good player for that league by your scout and take him as a reference point. You can btw match your "star ratings" against your opponents if you scout them before the match. You might see then, that your 4 Star player may only be a 2 Star compared to the others teams winger or whatever.

[smeagoltonez]

Thanks, some good points there.

The part that has me most confused is the coach's description of the player now being a 'leading' League 2 player whereas he was only rated as a Vanarama League player. Espcially as he's now rated better than some of my alternatives for that posoiton who I feel are better (albeit a little slower). I always took more notice of these written descriptions (compared to the stars anyway). Am I wrong to do so?

[Hilly1979]

I’ve got an issue similar to this at the minute, I’m playing as Spurs and my coaches only rate Jack Clarke has 2 stars and a decent Championship player yet attribute wise he is a better player than 3 star rated players who are described as good premier league players 🤷🏻

[Chief232]

@smeagoltonezHow well has Bohui played on loan? Solid performances can seriously boost how good a player is in the eyes of your scouts/coaches. Even an average rating of over 7 could have a pretty large impact. If he hasn't changed that much, his CA hasn't gone up by much and he doesn't really fit into your side, I wouldn't worry about keeping him. I'd personally be interested in giving him a shot as his pace alone is a massive asset at that level(L2/L1?) and he seems to have pretty decent potential but I wouldn't base his current rating off my scout/coach's reports, except for what they say about his consistency and how good he is in big matches, and I agree with your assessment that right now hes all pace. If you're not really gonna use him I'd try loan him to league two and I wouldn't be surprised to see his attributes start to really climb and then maybe you could reassess it again.

@Hilly1979 Curious which players you think he is better than. Looking at Clarke I do think there's a player who's attributes can make him very useful in specific roles right off the bat, more or less a pure winger who can finish, but he definitely takes a bit of a hit because of some of his mental attributes (concentration, decisions in particular but also teamwork vision and workrate), and his long shots and passing are pretty low for a wide forward. In the prem I'd probably only use him as a winger on attack for example. Again though if you can find a use for him, try it out as the coach reports aren't perfect and as long as players have the right attributes for what you want them to do it'll usually work out. I've had plenty of players over-perform their coach reports over the years, and I've had others over-perform their attributes.
 

[Hilly1979]

25 minutes ago, Chief232 said:

@smeagoltonezHow well has Bohui played on loan? Solid performances can seriously boost how good a player is in the eyes of your scouts/coaches. Even an average rating of over 7 could have a pretty large impact. If he hasn't changed that much, his CA hasn't gone up by much and he doesn't really fit into your side, I wouldn't worry about keeping him. I'd personally be interested in giving him a shot as his pace alone is a massive asset at that level(L2/L1?) and he seems to have pretty decent potential but I wouldn't base his current rating off my scout/coach's reports, except for what they say about his consistency and how good he is in big matches, and I agree with your assessment that right now hes all pace. If you're not really gonna use him I'd try loan him to league two and I wouldn't be surprised to see his attributes start to really climb and then maybe you could reassess it again.

@Hilly1979 Curious which players you think he is better than. Looking at Clarke I do think there's a player who's attributes can make him very useful in specific roles right off the bat, more or less a pure winger who can finish, but he definitely takes a bit of a hit because of some of his mental attributes (concentration, decisions in particular but also teamwork vision and workrate), and his long shots and passing are pretty low for a wide forward. In the prem I'd probably only use him as a winger on attack for example. Again though if you can find a use for him, try it out as the coach reports aren't perfect and as long as players have the right attributes for what you want them to do it'll usually work out. I've had plenty of players over-perform their coach reports over the years, and I've had others over-perform their attributes.
 

His attributes for the Winger Attack role are higher than both Moura and Bergwijn despite them being rated far better by coaches, I am now 3 seasons in.

[Craigus89]

Never trust what your coaches say about wingers, I've had so many reports from 18CA 19PA scouts who say a guy is 4 stars but his attributes generally are terrible, but he has 17 acc and pace. It seems to be weighted far too heavily for wingers.

Generally, you're a far better judge by using attributes to compare against other players in your team, the league, and you know your system and what attributes are needed for what roles. Pretty much ignore stars, coach ratings etc. The only useful coach items are the ones that tell you about consistency, injury etc.

[smeagoltonez]

1 hour ago, Chief232 said:

@smeagoltonezHow well has Bohui played on loan? Solid performances can seriously boost how good a player is in the eyes of your scouts/coaches. Even an average rating of over 7 could have a pretty large impact. If he hasn't changed that much, his CA hasn't gone up by much and he doesn't really fit into your side, I wouldn't worry about keeping him. I'd personally be interested in giving him a shot as his pace alone is a massive asset at that level(L2/L1?) and he seems to have pretty decent potential but I wouldn't base his current rating off my scout/coach's reports, except for what they say about his consistency and how good he is in big matches, and I agree with your assessment that right now hes all pace. If you're not really gonna use him I'd try loan him to league two and I wouldn't be surprised to see his attributes start to really climb and then maybe you could reassess it again.

@Hilly1979 Curious which players you think he is better than. Looking at Clarke I do think there's a player who's attributes can make him very useful in specific roles right off the bat, more or less a pure winger who can finish, but he definitely takes a bit of a hit because of some of his mental attributes (concentration, decisions in particular but also teamwork vision and workrate), and his long shots and passing are pretty low for a wide forward. In the prem I'd probably only use him as a winger on attack for example. Again though if you can find a use for him, try it out as the coach reports aren't perfect and as long as players have the right attributes for what you want them to do it'll usually work out. I've had plenty of players over-perform their coach reports over the years, and I've had others over-perform their attributes.
 

Yes! He had an average rating of 7.20 over the course of last season. He was played as a striker & scored 21 goals in 42 matches. He also got 8 assists & 9 POM awards.

So that would explain why he gained an increase in reputation? He now has the joint highest world rep (1.5 stars) in my squad along with 2 of my experienced players who are internationals for their country. So the coach is judging him as a 'leading League 2' player because he performed well in the National League & enjoyed an increase in his reputation? That's strange!

Even stranger is the fact that the rest of my squad enjoyed a full season in League 2 & didn't get an increase in world rep (one of those is an experienced international in his prime & had an average rating of 7.02 but still has a world rep of 1 star).

I've had a couple of other young players who are now rated far better by my coach (no world rep increase though) but they have played many games in League 2 & have had clear attribute boosts - wahoo!

Just for the record, I'm not concerned about who a higher reputation, I'm just trying to figure out how the AI comes to its conclusions.

Thanks again for your great reply.

[smeagoltonez]

46 minutes ago, Craigus89 said:

Never trust what your coaches say about wingers, I've had so many reports from 18CA 19PA scouts who say a guy is 4 stars but his attributes generally are terrible, but he has 17 acc and pace. It seems to be weighted far too heavily for wingers.

Generally, you're a far better judge by using attributes to compare against other players in your team, the league, and you know your system and what attributes are needed for what roles. Pretty much ignore stars, coach ratings etc. The only useful coach items are the ones that tell you about consistency, injury etc.

I agree, they seem to love speed (rightly or wrongly). It's just that this player has always had 15 pace & acceleration but was only regarded by this coach as a National League player. A year later & after a decent performance in that the National League, my coach believes him to be a leading League 2 player (after no increase in attributes).

I ignore the stars etc but am just trying to better understand what's made my coach change his mind so drastically.

[Chief232]

19 minutes ago, smeagoltonez said:

Yes! He had an average rating of 7.20 over the course of last season. He was played as a striker & scored 21 goals in 42 matches. He also got 8 assists & 9 POM awards.

So that would explain why he gained an increase in reputation? He now has the joint highest world rep (1.5 stars) in my squad along with 2 of my experienced players who are internationals for their country. So the coach is judging him as a 'leading League 2' player because he performed well in the National League & enjoyed an increase in his reputation? That's strange!

Even stranger is the fact that the rest of my squad enjoyed a full season in League 2 & didn't get an increase in world rep (one of those is an experienced international in his prime & had an average rating of 7.02 but still has a world rep of 1 star).

I've had a couple of other young players who are now rated far better by my coach (no world rep increase though) but they have played many games in League 2 & have had clear attribute boosts - wahoo!

Just for the record, I'm not concerned about who a higher reputation, I'm just trying to figure out how the AI comes to its conclusions.

Thanks again for your great reply.

If he's hitting numbers like that then yeah for sure, that'll massively contribute. If you have the National League loaded as playable(simulated leagues, such as non playable ones, calculate ratings differently), 7.2 is probably amongst the better players in the league haha. Wouldn't be shocked if he was up for an award, or maybe he won top goalscorer? All of those things would have likely an effect on his reputation and that might even come into play a bit with coach reports, although his performances are the most likely thing when it comes to those. I just had a player in my last save getting a 7.8 in the Macedonian league, and my scouts overrated him like crazy, saying he'd be my best winger when he'd genuinely be a third choice winger at best for me. Went to the Netherlands and has only been OK and he dropped a star in my scouts eyes in like two months!

Reputation is an incredibly weird thing at times in FM but it's rather important for basically everything as well...as I said, I imagine if he was in contention for any awards that would play a role. The difference in rating from a 7.0 to a 7.2 in FM is surprisingly big so a 7.02 might not be good enough to "stand out" if that makes sense. It may be a more gradual gain in reputation for players like that, but it is tough to say. I wouldn't worry about it TOO much, the higher reputation for Bohui will probably just benefit you if you're looking to get some money out of him. Cheers and good luck on your save!

@Hilly1979
If Clarke is better as a Winger Attack then I wouldn't hesitate using him there. I imagine Bergwijn developed a little as well, and they're both more well rounded and Bergwijn more two footed than Clarke so I would probably rather have them cutting in/playing more creative roles than Clarke. That'll help them in the views of the coaching report - which is almost trying to gauge a players "overall" rating, but yeah, three years in I think Clarke probably could be a better pure winger than both, despite what your coaches say.
 

[smeagoltonez]

2 hours ago, Chief232 said:

@smeagoltonezHow well has Bohui played on loan? Solid performances can seriously boost how good a player is in the eyes of your scouts/coaches. Even an average rating of over 7 could have a pretty large impact. If he hasn't changed that much, his CA hasn't gone up by much and he doesn't really fit into your side, I wouldn't worry about keeping him. I'd personally be interested in giving him a shot as his pace alone is a massive asset at that level(L2/L1?) and he seems to have pretty decent potential but I wouldn't base his current rating off my scout/coach's reports, except for what they say about his consistency and how good he is in big matches, and I agree with your assessment that right now hes all pace. If you're not really gonna use him I'd try loan him to league two and I wouldn't be surprised to see his attributes start to really climb and then maybe you could reassess it again.

@Hilly1979 Curious which players you think he is better than. Looking at Clarke I do think there's a player who's attributes can make him very useful in specific roles right off the bat, more or less a pure winger who can finish, but he definitely takes a bit of a hit because of some of his mental attributes (concentration, decisions in particular but also teamwork vision and workrate), and his long shots and passing are pretty low for a wide forward. In the prem I'd probably only use him as a winger on attack for example. Again though if you can find a use for him, try it out as the coach reports aren't perfect and as long as players have the right attributes for what you want them to do it'll usually work out. I've had plenty of players over-perform their coach reports over the years, and I've had others over-perform their attributes.
 

I think that you're definitely onto something here. I just looked at one of the other hopefuls that I sent out on loan to the Isthmian Premier league. He played 26 times & scored an average rating of 7.52 for the season. His attributes haven't changed & Genie Scout tells me that his CA has improved by 1 point but my coach now rates him as a Vanarama National League player (whereas previously he was a Vanarama North/South). This is despite him only playing in the Isthmian Premier & enjoying no attribute increases.

So it really does seem that playing well in a far lower league gives my coaches an inaccurate opinion & inflates a player's ability in their eyes?

[smeagoltonez]

9 minutes ago, Chief232 said:

If he's hitting numbers like that then yeah for sure, that'll massively contribute. If you have the National League loaded as playable(simulated leagues, such as non playable ones, calculate ratings differently), 7.2 is probably amongst the better players in the league haha. Wouldn't be shocked if he was up for an award, or maybe he won top goalscorer? All of those things would have likely an effect on his reputation and that might even come into play a bit with coach reports, although his performances are the most likely thing when it comes to those. I just had a player in my last save getting a 7.8 in the Macedonian league, and my scouts overrated him like crazy, saying he'd be my best winger when he'd genuinely be a third choice winger at best for me. Went to the Netherlands and has only been OK and he dropped a star in my scouts eyes in like two months!

Reputation is an incredibly weird thing at times in FM but it's rather important for basically everything as well...as I said, I imagine if he was in contention for any awards that would play a role. The difference in rating from a 7.0 to a 7.2 in FM is surprisingly big so a 7.02 might not be good enough to "stand out" if that makes sense. It may be a more gradual gain in reputation for players like that, but it is tough to say. I wouldn't worry about it TOO much, the higher reputation for Bohui will probably just benefit you if you're looking to get some money out of him. Cheers and good luck on your save!

@Hilly1979
If Clarke is better as a Winger Attack then I wouldn't hesitate using him there. I imagine Bergwijn developed a little as well, and they're both more well rounded and Bergwijn more two footed than Clarke so I would probably rather have them cutting in/playing more creative roles than Clarke. That'll help them in the views of the coaching report - which is almost trying to gauge a players "overall" rating, but yeah, three years in I think Clarke probably could be a better pure winger than both, despite what your coaches say.
 

Thanks again, it all makes for more sense now & I'll watch out for it in the future!

[zyfon5]

Coach report take into account game form. So if you have a player that is in good form, it will inflate the coach rating. I had players fluctuate from 5 star world class player to 3 star leading league player (real rating is probably close to 3.5 stars)

[zlatanera]

46 minutes ago, zyfon5 said:

Coach report take into account game form. So if you have a player that is in good form, it will inflate the coach rating. I had players fluctuate from 5 star world class player to 3 star leading league player (real rating is probably close to 3.5 stars)

I second this.

I have a great 24-year old newgen DL on my current save, he's fully reach his potential (I checked with the editor, but my coaches have said so for about 6 months) and is rated - rightly - as World Class. 

But age 21 he was also rated World Class and that was mostly because he averaged 7.81 in Serie A (which then led to him picking up 4 caps for Italy) - attribute-wise he was 3-star at best (although similar to the wingers people mentioned earlier, immense physically). 

[smeagoltonez]

2 hours ago, zyfon5 said:

Coach report take into account game form. So if you have a player that is in good form, it will inflate the coach rating. I had players fluctuate from 5 star world class player to 3 star leading league player (real rating is probably close to 3.5 stars)

 

1 hour ago, zlatanera said:

I second this.

I have a great 24-year old newgen DL on my current save, he's fully reach his potential (I checked with the editor, but my coaches have said so for about 6 months) and is rated - rightly - as World Class. 

But age 21 he was also rated World Class and that was mostly because he averaged 7.81 in Serie A (which then led to him picking up 4 caps for Italy) - attribute-wise he was 3-star at best (although similar to the wingers people mentioned earlier, immense physically). 

Thanks guys!

[smeagoltonez]

On 27/07/2021 at 11:20, Hilly1979 said:

His attributes for the Winger Attack role are higher than both Moura and Bergwijn despite them being rated far better by coaches, I am now 3 seasons in.

Are they good with both feet & Clarke isn’t? I find that inflates a coaches opinion of a player’s ability. And have they been in good form like the other posters have suggested?