Star players in a 4-2-3-1 and West Ham in the CL semi-finals

[Haribo1681]

I toyed with putting this in the AM thread, but decided I was asking for help with my tactic so started a new thread... After getting sacked in season 1 with Spurs, I've been having a decent run with West Ham, getting into the Champions League in 21/22, then reaching the semi-finals of the CL in 22/23 with a great chance of reaching the CL again (and winning the Carabao Cup en route). 

We're massively propped up by two things: Moussa Dembele at AF(a) has been a revelation - he's scored over 40 goals in all competitions, mainly thanks to his 'tries to beat the offside trap' trait. We've also been deadly from corners - we've scored 14 in the EPL alone, Man City are second on that ranking with ten and then a bunch of teams on seven.

The issue is my trio of AMs - we edge possession in most games, mainly by racking up passes between the DLP(d) at CM (Rice) and my defence - who all enjoy a nice match rating boost as a result. On the reverse of this, my AM trio are all essentially anonymous because no-one wants to pass the ball forward to them. As a result, their match ratings plummet and this descends into a vicious circle. Jarred Bowen as AMR gets protected from this a touch because he takes set pieces and gets a ratings boost as a result.

The vision here is for Dolberg to get in the box and play as a second striker, while Bowen, Nicolo Zaniolo and the two full backs look to create opportunities. Zaniolo also has some really interesting traits - run with ball more and shoot more - so the dream is for him to play as AM(s) but with player instructions to encourage these traits. I'd love to see him making adventurous dribbles from the edge of the box or trying his luck from distance.

There's a few changes depending on different situations - mainly mentality depending on the opposition. I also turn off counter-press against better sides and drop a bit deeper to try and stop them playing through us. If we're dominating a game and not creating much, I'll use Be More Expressive or increase mentality, sometimes increasing tempo and/or width to try and stretch the opposition.

I can't complain about how we're performing, but I'd love to see us make our play further up the field and bring our most exciting players into play. I'd be interested to get the group's thoughts on this based on my most-commonly used tactics below - please ignore the number of players in need of a rest though, we are creaking under the number of games played and the need to put my best players in the biggest games!

My thoughts are that DLP(d) is probably too safe a role to use in many situations, so no-one takes a risk to play more vertically. Would changing this role to a DLP(s) and the BBM to CM(d) to become the holding midfielder help? Would it be negative to play both CMs on defensive duties or would this create  more space for the AM trio to operate in? Many thanks!

[Justified]

I think the tactic looks quite nicely balanced tbh. I'd probably not have both MC's on defensive duties if you want to change some roles/duties.

I'd maybe be more tempted to have the RB + LB on WBsu and the DLPsu on his side with Overlap left selected and a BBMsu on the right MC spot if you want to see how that looks? It will be more "open" but might create what you're looking for. If you want to be more defensive then you could always switch back to a FBsu/de and be more solid (or even IWBde).

[DarJ]

The roles look good to me I’d have to look at highlights to determine what the problem is however, if I was to make changes to your tactics I would play the B2B on the right and the DLP on the left the the FB on the left will become a WB on support and the FB on the right will become a FB on support and then I’ll increase tempo 

[Justified]

Just now, DarJ said:

The roles look good to me I’d have to look at highlights to determine what the problem is however, if I was to make changes to your tactics I would play the B2B on the right and the DLP on the left the the FB on the left will become a WB on support and the FB on the right will become a FB on support and then I’ll increase tempo 

Great minds 

[Haribo1681]

Thanks both!

It does feel like it's not a million miles away from being good. We keep the ball nicely in possession and when we do take a risk in attack we really utilise Dembele's strengths at beating the offside and finishing. I have a new CM arriving in the summer, who looks best as a DLP(s) - with this in mind, I'm considering switching Rice be the holding midfielder and play as a CM(d) or BWM(d) predominantly; how do you think this might affect things?

From what I see in highlights and on stats at the moment, we just don't progress from CM to AM enough so my most creative players don't see enough of the ball - we're happy to circulate the ball between DLP and defence, but I'd prefer to play more vertically and look to maintain possession higher up the pitch.

I've also used both full backs as WB(s) quite a bit too - even though the screenshot shows Wague as FB(a) I find that attacking mentalities in wide positions leads to excessive numbers of crosses, but what I really want is for the full backs to stretch the opposition without being too aggressive, hopefully creating more space for the AMC and AMR to operate and do creative things, mainly for the AF and AML to be the main goal threats in open play. Is there a chance that having both of them doing this clogs up the final third and/or leaves us vulnerable at the back?

[DarJ]

I’ve had various variants of the 4231. I’ve got one with a standard CM on defend and CM on support, another one with a CM on defend and a RPM and another one with a DLP on defend and RPM so they all work. 

I’ve also had success with the AF and AM on attack so you could try that too

[Justified]

Maybe swap the MC roles around? If you're AMC is not seeing enough of the ball then either he's getting marked out of the match or space isn't being made around him enough for him to use. By having the BBM on the either side of him that might draw markers away from his position as they won't know who to mark (Soucek, Bowen, Zaniolo). Dembele should already be making space for him as he's pushing the opposition back with his attacking role. Now you just need to get markers away from him.

Unfortunately there will be formations that you'll struggle to get the most out of Zaniolo like double DM's or back 3's + DM.

[Haribo1681]

Thanks again both - one of the things I like about 4-2-3-1 is that you can try a load of different variations to create different effects - which you've both highlighted and reinforced. Before signing Zaniolo, Pablo Fornals was my AM and we'd often rotate between him as AP(s) or AM(s) with Rice switching to CM(d) and DLP(d), depending on the match situation, opposition formation etc. Zaniolo, IMHO, is a theoretically stifled by the AP role though, as it includes the shoot less often PI, which clashes with one of his traits.

Bottom line seems to be - don't be afraid to experiment and adjust depending on what's happening in-game as there's nothing obvious that's causing issues.

[Justified]

Correct!

Tbh I'm not a huge fan of 4-2-3-1 but sometimes you end up at teams that have great AMC's and you have to make do with the tools that you have. The way I understand AMC's is either you have to create space for them to use their creativity or you use them as a goal threat running from deep (or just ignore them completely if it's Mesut Ozil who's just lazy). Key is the roles around him IMO and that's why I felt initially when you said double defensive MC's would leave him marked out of the game quite easily.

[Haribo1681]

Agreed! In this particular setup, the AMC as a threat by running from deep is more difficult because we're fairly wedded to the AF(a) - I've tinkered with a DLF(s) but not had a great deal of joy. The concept of using double defensive MCs doesn't appeal greatly as there's no clear link there between midfield and attack but I wondered if it might create more space for the AMC - I'd rather have one of the MCs tasked with being a bit more progressive and looking move the ball forwards.

I've also explored the use of a Winger in one of the wide positions rather than both of them cutting in - I'm not mad keen on that solution either as I want Dolberg to play like a second striker and I want Bowen involved in field creatively, rather than just chucking in crosses all the time.

Edited August 16, 2021 by Haribo1681
Added extra detail to the avoidance of using 2 x Defensive MCs

[DarJ]

Using a TREQ is also a goo idea. he comes deep and also joins the attack 

[Haribo1681]

2 minutes ago, DarJ said:

Using a TREQ is also a goo idea. he comes deep and also joins the attack 

I love the idea of using a Treq for their free spirit, roaming style - I worry that in a system with urgent pressing and counter pressing it might not be effective in defence though? Plus I've never had any joy from using one in the past!

[DarJ]

8 minutes ago, Haribo1681 said:

I worry that in a system with urgent pressing and counter pressing it might not be effective in defence though?

He will still press 

[Haribo1681]

1 minute ago, DarJ said:

He will still press 

Interesting - I thought they were hard-coded to be less effective defensively, but I'll give it a look.

[DarJ]

If they’ve got the right attributes they will not as much as other players tho

[enigmatic]

tbh if you're getting results, don't worry quite so much about meaningless match ratings.

 

Soucek/Rice isn't a midfield especially inclined to take risks just to get the ball a bit further up the pitch, and if you want Zaniolo on the ball more you've got the option of encouraging him to roam more to come and get it and/or giving him a playmaker role

[Haribo1681]

3 minutes ago, enigmatic said:

tbh if you're getting results, don't worry quite so much about meaningless match ratings.

 

Soucek/Rice isn't a midfield especially inclined to take risks just to get the ball a bit further up the pitch, and if you want Zaniolo on the ball more you've got the option of encouraging him to roam more to come and get it and/or giving him a playmaker role

I know what you mean about being happy with results, but there's an enjoyment factor to consider too - having lashed out a fair chunk of cash on Zaniolo, it'd be nice to see him performing and for our results to be a little less dependant on successful corner routines.

I'd like to think that match ratings are an indication of whether or not my tactics are effective or not, but I do also get that they don't really affect anything in the long run.

[danyates8]

Set pieces are vital this year and that for me takes away abit of the fun. I've found if you don't set them up defensively you always concede and that will then need micromanaging over a season depending on who you are playing, then attacking wise if you don't set them up you are potentially losing 20 goals a season, I've had centre backs scoring 15 in a season before. That's strange to me. How have you found your tactic to be defensively against the bigger sides?

[enigmatic]

47 minutes ago, Haribo1681 said:

I'd like to think that match ratings are an indication of whether or not my tactics are effective or not

In theory they are. In practice, they're calibrated towards expecting attacking players to have goals or assists or to score >6.8 in a close game even if they link the play superbly all game, and penalising them harshly for not completing crosses or winning headers even if that's all down to a 6'5 centre back  (and have lots of weirder quirks than that!)

[Haribo1681]

20 minutes ago, danyates8 said:

Set pieces are vital this year and that for me takes away abit of the fun. I've found if you don't set them up defensively you always concede and that will then need micromanaging over a season depending on who you are playing, then attacking wise if you don't set them up you are potentially losing 20 goals a season, I've had centre backs scoring 15 in a season before. That's strange to me. How have you found your tactic to be defensively against the bigger sides?

That matches my experience for sure - without doing anything special on set pieces, we’re miles ahead of everyone else.

It’s been a mixed bag against the big sides - my instinct is to reduce some of the risk factors like taking off counter pressing and reducing line of engagement, pressing urgency to try and be a bit more compact. This just invites pressure and offers space on the edge of our own box, while pushing up a bit more and being a bit more aggressive creates space in midfield and between our back four, which they seem to readily exploit. That said, we’ve had some good results against top sides - I’d anything the season’s been held back by draws that should have even wins against teams further down the league.

[Haribo1681]

23 minutes ago, enigmatic said:

In theory they are. In practice, they're calibrated towards expecting attacking players to have goals or assists or to score >6.8 in a close game even if they link the play superbly all game, and penalising them harshly for not completing crosses or winning headers even if that's all down to a 6'5 centre back  (and have lots of weirder quirks than that!)

I agree - I find that defensive players get rewarded for completing a succession of easy passes, but never penalised for errors like failing to mark correctly or close down a player making a cross. Forwards, meanwhile, suffer badly when they’re not involved in the game, which (I think) then reduces their chances of doing anything positive in the game. I regularly see forwards complete, say, 80% of passes but their ratings quickly drop to 6.5 or lower in the first 25 despite not featuring in any highlights. It seems a bit of a lottery sometimes how to address this.

[Johnny Ace]

I'm wracking my brain here 

Your roles & duties are giving me FM OCD but you're smashing it so I'm not going to say anything, if you've seen the AMC thread, you know what I like 

Dembele is getting the lion's share of the team's goals, he's the most aggressive & furthest up the pitch so everything is pointed to him to grab the goals (& boy, he's doing the job!!)

I'm not sure who you want more from? The IF or the AMC, or both?

If you want more from them you'll have to get less from Dembele, like trying him on a DLF(A) or CF(A) will get him out the way for the IF & AMC to step in but you'll probably get less goals from him  

 

Edited August 16, 2021 by Johnny Ace

[glengarry224]

Looks like you're doing great.  I like what others have written here.  You also could try a 4-2-4 with Zaniolo as a second striker, maybe a PF(a) or (s), with 'roams', or a CF but that might mess up your defensive structure or build up play.  Probably want to try that in pre-season. 

As others have written, against teams which pack the box, you might not have enough width on your left flank, but you could take advantage of that.  As an alternate tactic, which you could switch to in-game, could one of your wingers attack the box from the AMC position, or play as a third CM, and then Zaniolo could playmake from the wing?  Maybe a WTM?  (he's tall, right?)  With him as WTM and an overlapping FB and/or a LCM on Mez, you could overload that flank and create goals for your RW.  Just a crazy thought.

[Haribo1681]

1 hour ago, Johnny Ace said:

I'm wracking my brain here 

Your roles & duties are giving me FM OCD but you're smashing it so I'm not going to say anything, if you've seen the AMC thread, you know what I like 

Dembele is getting the lion's share of the team's goals, he's the most aggressive & furthest up the pitch so everything is pointed to him to grab the goals (& boy, he's doing the job!!)

I'm not sure who you want more from? The IF or the AMC, or both?

If you want more from them you'll have to get less from Dembele, like trying him on a DLF(A) or CF(A) will get him out the way for the IF & AMC to step in but you'll probably get less goals from him  

 

It worked out ok in the end! We finished the season third thanks to a couple of really scruffy wins at the end - Dembele finished the season with 45 goals in total, 27 in the league, which was enough to hold off Luka Jovic of the champions, Arsenal.

To answer the question, the issue is mainly around making the AMC less anonymous/more effective and therefore higher match ratings. I guess if the price to pay for having such success with the AF (and ultimately the team) is a drop in ratings elsewhere, then so be it - it's all about the bigger picture, and I couldn't have had a much better campaign!

I still think there's a utopia where my AM trio run the show AND my AF wins the golden boot, but who knows if I'll ever get there...

Edited August 16, 2021 by Haribo1681

[Haribo1681]

1 hour ago, glengarry224 said:

Looks like you're doing great.  I like what others have written here.  You also could try a 4-2-4 with Zaniolo as a second striker, maybe a PF(a) or (s), with 'roams', or a CF but that might mess up your defensive structure or build up play.  Probably want to try that in pre-season. 

As others have written, against teams which pack the box, you might not have enough width on your left flank, but you could take advantage of that.  As an alternate tactic, which you could switch to in-game, could one of your wingers attack the box from the AMC position, or play as a third CM, and then Zaniolo could playmake from the wing?  Maybe a WTM?  (he's tall, right?)  With him as WTM and an overlapping FB and/or a LCM on Mez, you could overload that flank and create goals for your RW.  Just a crazy thought.

Interesting, although I'm not sure Zaniolo is tall or physical enough - he could easily play as wide playmaker, though, and Fornals is tidy as a Mez, so that could be worth exploring.

I have tinkered with a 4-2-4, where we played a winger on one flank and IW on the other (both were left footers). Dolberg is decent as a DLF(s), as is my backup option, Mergim Berisha. I'm not mad keen on 4-2-4 as it feels a little open, but the one time we started with it, we beat Bayern Munich 3-1 (4-2 agg) to reach the CL semi final, so... 

[Justified]

You could always go 4-3-3 and play Zaniolo as a CMat. But, as mentioned, you might get less input from Dembele.

[Haribo1681]

8 hours ago, Justified said:

You could always go 4-3-3 and play Zaniolo as a CMat. But, as mentioned, you might get less input from Dembele.

That’s also a good shout - generally speaking, I prefer 4-3-3 to 4-2-3-1 as it give the full backs more licence, but when I’ve used it, it hasn’t been as effective. Might tinker with it for the new season though with a view to rotating between formations as needed.

[saintrainhard]

Zaniolo as shadow striker (attack) will make him on beast mode, and give him tackle harder instruction. If you get an opponent play with 4-3-3 DM, let him mark their DM

With 2 players in CM play more conservative role Zaniolo in attack role will give more threat to opponent