Diamond formation

[B3nnet7]

Just wondering if anyone had any opinions on if it is possible to play a diamond which can switch to a 433 in match? Is it possible and what roles would be best to use to make it happen? 

I guess what I mean is allowing the CAM to attack the box as a goal scoring threat and basically have two wide strikers. 

 

Any ideas would be great, thanks 

[DarJ]

Why don’t you put something together yourself and see how it works then report your findings here for people to give suggestions 

[Tsuru]

I used a 4-4-2 diamond on my past save with Wrexham (I am not playing it anymore) with mixed results. 

It can work? Of course it can. I would opt for it again, or for any "narrow formations" (that is, without advanced or midfield wingers)? At least at this moment, no.

Why not? I would say 99% of the opponents don´t use narrow formations, so when you choose them you have a natural weakness on the flanks, with your fullbacks being constantly overloaded. On a 4-4-2 diamond, the best way of countering this defensively is using a pair of Carrileros ahead of an Anchorman, but this places a lot of creation burden on your front men, and you depend a lot on good crossings from the fullbacks to score. But with only one wide men, sometimes it is very hard to open space, because you don´t have overlappings to open the defence (that classic one-two in which the winger holds the ball and passes to the fullback to cross, or the inside oriented winger moves inside and opens the flank to the fullback to have space to cross).

So I when used this formation we controlled the games, had much more possession, but shot few balls on goal and many attacks ended with a packed defence cutting out our crossings, because the fullbacks didn´t have other options.

I also used the TI to defend wider, to avoid goals from crossings, but TBH it didn´t do as good as I expected and we suffered many goals the same way.

If you have excellent fullbacks, very good strikers and a nice AM, a diamond can work, yes. But if you don´t, I would think twice before choosing it.

You mentioned a diamond that turns into a 4-3-3. Why not do the opposite? You can choose for example a 4-3-3 (4-1-4-1 DM Wide) and use roles and duties to create kind of a 4-4-2 diamond in possession, with wingers moving inside or attacking the box and fullbacks using the flanks to cross the ball. Maybe this is an easier path to do what you want

You could start with something like this, I think. Maybe you could try an IF-Su instead of the AP-Su on the right, or just use a pair of Carrileros, and see what version you like the most.
 

Edited August 17, 2021 by Tsuru

[Johnny Ace]

17 hours ago, B3nnet7 said:

Just wondering if anyone had any opinions on if it is possible to play a diamond which can switch to a 433 in match? Is it possible and what roles would be best to use to make it happen? 

I guess what I mean is allowing the CAM to attack the box as a goal scoring threat and basically have two wide strikers. 

 

Any ideas would be great, thanks 

I'd love to get one working, I've tried before but they always felt like they were missing something without the wide attackers

Your AM options are AM(A) or AP(A) I guess 

In it's bare bones form, something like this as starting point then tweak from there

 

                        CF(S)          AF(A)

                                 AP(A)

                     CAR(S)        CAR(S)

                                DM(D)

FB(A)           CD(D)          CD(D)         FB(A)

Maybe just CMs(S) with Stay Wider, not sure the Carileros would work properly without a central CM 

Edited August 17, 2021 by Johnny Ace

[Tsuru]

25 minutos atrás, Johnny Ace disse:

CF(S)          AF(A)

                                 AP(A)

                     CAR(S)        CAR(S)

                                DM(D)

FB(A)           CD(D)          CD(D)         FB(A)

Maybe just CMs(S) with Stay Wider, not sure the Carileros would work properly without a central CM 

Yes they would, I already tested. But personally I would change the DM (D) to an Anchorman or DLP (D) and use Complete Wingbacks on the flanks. In the example above, maybe a CBW-S on the left and a CBW-A on the right, or even two CBW-S. This way they have more freedom to move around and look for spaces as they will be the only flank players.

Edited August 17, 2021 by Tsuru

[Johnny Ace]

8 minutes ago, Tsuru said:

Yes they would, I already tested. But personally I would change the DM (D) to an Anchorman or DLP (D) and use Complete Wingbacks on the flanks. In the example above, maybe a CBW-S on the left and a CBW-A on the right, or even two CBW-S. This way they have more freedom to move around and look for spaces as they will be the only flank players.

Cool, I was thinking a DLP or Anchor man would be a bit static with wanting the 3 in midfield, so the DM(D) might move forward while the CAR's split. Yeah, WBs or CWBs would work depending on personnel  Be fun to try   

 

[Tsuru]

1 hora atrás, Johnny Ace disse:

Cool, I was thinking a DLP or Anchor man would be a bit static with wanting the 3 in midfield, so the DM(D) might move forward while the CAR's split. Yeah, WBs or CWBs would work depending on personnel  Be fun to try   

Yes, I agree that the DM (D) would do this movement. But when the two fullbacks move upfield, the space between the DMC and the defensive line becomes very vulnerable on a 4-4-2 diamond if your holding man is moving too. I noticed this after using a DLP (S), almost immediately the opponent started to use long balls through the middle and almost scored. When I moved back to DLP (D) the problem almost immediately stopped. So better be safe than sorry  

[Johnny Ace]

7 minutes ago, Tsuru said:

Yes, I agree that the DM (D) would do this movement. But when the two fullbacks move upfield, the space between the DMC and the defensive line becomes very vulnerable on a 4-4-2 diamond if your holding man is moving too. I noticed this after using a DLP (S), almost immediately the opponent started to use long balls through the middle and almost scored. When I moved back to DLP (D) the problem almost immediately stopped. So better be safe than sorry  

Could always push the D-line up to reduce the space between defence and midfield? I'd prefer a HB there myself . Interesting anyway, I want to try out some narrow formations  

[Tsuru]

20 minutos atrás, Johnny Ace disse:

Could always push the D-line up to reduce the space between defence and midfield? I'd prefer a HB there myself . Interesting anyway, I want to try out some narrow formations  

I also did because I was playing on Cautious mentality  so the most of the time I was using High DL + High LOE + More Urgent Pressing + Higher Tempo to avoid being too passive. Later on I removed High LOE and the team was much better defensively, but we had even more difficulties on attack.

I really think diamond formations are really, really hard to work well in FM. They resemble me a card castle, everything has to be very exact and tight, very well designed, because any not adjusted part can make everything fall apart. I also don´t know the exact reason, but they look very "blunt" on attack - I faced this problem with 4-4-2 diamond and with the 4-2-3-1 Christmas Tree. But my last 4-2-3-1 was also very blunt before I post it here, so maybe the problem is the manager 

For me it is much easier to play on a 4-2-3-1, 4-4-2, 4-4-1-1, 4-1-4-1 and 4-1-4-1 DM Wide. Or maybe if you really want a narrow formation, a 3-CB system might be easier to set up than a diamond one.

Edited August 17, 2021 by Tsuru

[Johnny Ace]

3 hours ago, Tsuru said:

For me it is much easier to play on a 4-2-3-1, 4-4-2, 4-4-1-1, 4-1-4-1 and 4-1-4-1 DM Wide. Or maybe if you really want a narrow formation, a 3-CB system might be easier to set up than a diamond one.

Completely agree! All I've used on my saves for the last 3-4 years is 4-4-2, 4-1-4-1 DM wide & 4-2-3-1. I want to expand & try out narrow formations & 4-4-1-1 as I've never gotten anything great out of them myself 

 

[B3nnet7]

9 hours ago, Tsuru said:

I used a 4-4-2 diamond on my past save with Wrexham (I am not playing it anymore) with mixed results. 

It can work? Of course it can. I would opt for it again, or for any "narrow formations" (that is, without advanced or midfield wingers)? At least at this moment, no.

Why not? I would say 99% of the opponents don´t use narrow formations, so when you choose them you have a natural weakness on the flanks, with your fullbacks being constantly overloaded. On a 4-4-2 diamond, the best way of countering this defensively is using a pair of Carrileros ahead of an Anchorman, but this places a lot of creation burden on your front men, and you depend a lot on good crossings from the fullbacks to score. But with only one wide men, sometimes it is very hard to open space, because you don´t have overlappings to open the defence (that classic one-two in which the winger holds the ball and passes to the fullback to cross, or the inside oriented winger moves inside and opens the flank to the fullback to have space to cross).

So I when used this formation we controlled the games, had much more possession, but shot few balls on goal and many attacks ended with a packed defence cutting out our crossings, because the fullbacks didn´t have other options.

I also used the TI to defend wider, to avoid goals from crossings, but TBH it didn´t do as good as I expected and we suffered many goals the same way.

If you have excellent fullbacks, very good strikers and a nice AM, a diamond can work, yes. But if you don´t, I would think twice before choosing it.

You mentioned a diamond that turns into a 4-3-3. Why not do the opposite? You can choose for example a 4-3-3 (4-1-4-1 DM Wide) and use roles and duties to create kind of a 4-4-2 diamond in possession, with wingers moving inside or attacking the box and fullbacks using the flanks to cross the ball. Maybe this is an easier path to do what you want

You could start with something like this, I think. Maybe you could try an IF-Su instead of the AP-Su on the right, or just use a pair of Carrileros, and see what version you like the most.
 

Thank you for the advice, really appreciate it and I actually really like that set up too, it's actually a good idea starting with a 433 and that formation and roles suit the players I have in my team, apart from the AP so I'd switch to a IF for sure, the other one I might struggle with might be the anchorman too. But the setup definitely makes sense and I'm going to give it a go  

[B3nnet7]

Thanks for everyone thoughts,  they have given me some really good ideas! 

So I'm currently FC United of Manchester in the national league and I was playing with a 424 wing play style, it was working great but I have won 1 in 11 using it and dropped from 2nd to 8th! So i feel i need a change, tbh I've been interested in using a diamond or some form of it. 

I played my last game last night using a diamond set up- 

PFa DLFs 

SS

MEZa BBMs 

DMd 

WBs CDd BPDd WBa 

SKd 

I won 3-0 (albeit only in a cup game against a team a division below) 

My SS was my best performer and got a goal so was happy with that. So I may keep with that and tweak it a little bit and also try the 433 idea mentioned by @Tsuru 

Edited August 17, 2021 by B3nnet7