What the actual……..?

[FulchesterFred]

People always really helpful here. I’ve adjusted my tactics after advice here and taken Spurs several notches higher. But what just happened (Kane missed 3 sitters btw but his attributes are irrelevant in FM21). Any advice gratefully received.

[Guest]

How is this tactic working out for you for the rest of the time? TBH your XG doesn't look like Kane missed three sitters from what I can see. You have an absent central midfield which with the rest of your roles will leave you over-exposed on turnovers and lead to a cavernous space in the middle for teams to counter attack in to. I can already visualize the situation where your players are all high up the pitch including your one or both of your Fullbacks and the ball gets turned over which leads your BWM to do what comes naturally to him and rush to close down the ball carrier which then allows this vast space for those two opposition attackers to reek havoc in. 

[FulchesterFred]

cheers for speedy reply.
It’s working well. 4th in league. Quarters of CL. biggest defeat was by 2 goals.

I get what you’re saying about transitions. 
what’s your advice? If I play deeper. I bring my forward line back and make my attack weaker. Can a mezzala not work in a 2? But I’ve seen the CPU do that v successfully.

4231 by definition leaves you open to counter yes?

 

oh and the stats aren’t always right. He missed 3 good chances. He is absurdly average in 21. Wish IRL too then I’d be happier selling him

Edited August 17, 2021 by FulchesterFred

[ReadingFan82]

Sometimes games like this do happen in FM, completely out of the blue games where nothing goes your way and you lose a game you think you should of won, but I'll try and help a little with how I understand this game. Obviously I don't know your save and team as well as you do so take everything with a pinch of salt. Maybe Kane could do with being on a slightly more attacking role as a striker? I'm not too sure who in this side if meant to be putting the goals away, as you don't have a goal scoring striker or an inside forward on either side. This isn't saying you won't score any goals like this but it could help making Kane a bit more attacking or even have Depay as an inside forward. It could also be helpful having one of Trippier or Pedri on the right side on an attacking duty, as otherwise I think it may look like your right side is a bit toothless. I'd like to know what your idea is behind focusing play through the middle, I've never personally tried it myself but would like to know your thinking behind it. I also do think as you acknowledged in a reply to another person that the 4231 does leave you somewhat open to counter attacks, personally I always go for a 433 with a DM, you could even have the exact same players in the exact same roles but just move the midfielders all down a tad, leaving Skipp to sit and be an out and out sitter in front of the defence who can hopefully help prevent counter attacks.

[herne79]

What you do NOT do is have a knee jerk reaction and change your system just because of one loss, even if it was 6-1.

Watch the highlights back, is there anything you can learn?  What did you change during the game?  Why didn't that work?  Did you change change anything?  If not why not?

There may be lessons you can learn for the future, things you can alter IF you see a future match starting to go a similar way.  But don't change a winning formula just because of one result .

[FulchesterFred]

21 minutes ago, ReadingFan82 said:

Sometimes games like this do happen in FM, completely out of the blue games where nothing goes your way and you lose a game you think you should of won, but I'll try and help a little with how I understand this game. Obviously I don't know your save and team as well as you do so take everything with a pinch of salt. Maybe Kane could do with being on a slightly more attacking role as a striker? I'm not too sure who in this side if meant to be putting the goals away, as you don't have a goal scoring striker or an inside forward on either side. This isn't saying you won't score any goals like this but it could help making Kane a bit more attacking or even have Depay as an inside forward. It could also be helpful having one of Trippier or Pedri on the right side on an attacking duty, as otherwise I think it may look like your right side is a bit toothless. I'd like to know what your idea is behind focusing play through the middle, I've never personally tried it myself but would like to know your thinking behind it. I also do think as you acknowledged in a reply to another person that the 4231 does leave you somewhat open to counter attacks, personally I always go for a 433 with a DM, you could even have the exact same players in the exact same roles but just move the midfielders all down a tad, leaving Skipp to sit and be an out and out sitter in front of the defence who can hopefully help prevent counter attacks.

Interesting points. Thank you! Whenever I put Kane more advanced it doesn’t seem to help. His weakest attribute is his speed. I think IRL he’s a perfect DLF or CF. It just doesn’t translate on21. 
my fear with putting either WB on attack is I leave myself even more open to counter. Pedri on attack would mean a lot of attacking player instructions, 3 out of 4…

in my experience 433 always undercooks my attack. How do you play that system. Would be really interested to see.

I did attack through middle as I had 3 there and wolves 2. Only reason. It didn’t work 😂 

[FulchesterFred]

8 minutes ago, herne79 said:

What you do NOT do is have a knee jerk reaction and change your system just because of one loss, even if it was 6-1.

Watch the highlights back, is there anything you can learn?  What did you change during the game?  Why didn't that work?  Did you change change anything?  If not why not?

There may be lessons you can learn for the future, things you can alter IF you see a future match starting to go a similar way.  But don't change a winning formula just because of one result .

Thank you. You’re right. At half time I moved to deeper defence. WBs to FBs. They scored 2 more and we didn’t really have a chance. First half much more open.

I don’t mind shocking results. They do happen, very rarely, but do happen. This version seems spectacularly unforgiving. Again fine but I don’t feel armed with enough information from SI which is disappointing. that’s why the tactics forum is great. 

[danyates8]

28 minutes ago, FulchesterFred said:

Thank you. You’re right. At half time I moved to deeper defence. WBs to FBs. They scored 2 more and we didn’t really have a chance. First half much more open.

I don’t mind shocking results. They do happen, very rarely, but do happen. This version seems spectacularly unforgiving. Again fine but I don’t feel armed with enough information from SI which is disappointing. that’s why the tactics forum is great. 

I was in discussion with a friend who doesn't play FM but loves Fifa career modes etc saying I believe he would enjoy FM. He came round so I could give him a run through of the basics and as a newcomer he was just totally overwhelmed. I started a new game with him and even turned on the tips and tricks but IMO they don't go deep enough. SI is in a funny place trying to get new people playing the game. Even myself as a player who has played at least 200 hours every year for the last 15 years or so I'm finding the micromanagement aspect of the newer versions highly frustrating. Having to change a corner tactic due to a sub is just annoying but not as annoying as conceding from it when you forget to change. Since finding this forum around a week ago ive definitely gained a deeper understanding of what works and what doesn't work however my results haven't indicated this. I created a tactic and within 7 seasons won the Champions League with Brighton, however if I put that tactic on this forum it would be seen as something that wouldn't logically make sense. 2 inside forwards on attack, advanced forward and advanced playmaker on attack. It shouldn't be working according to what I've learnt but its by far and away my most successful results which just adds to my confusion. 

[Tsuru]

10 minutos atrás, danyates8 disse:

I was in discussion with a friend who doesn't play FM but loves Fifa career modes etc saying I believe he would enjoy FM. He came round so I could give him a run through of the basics and as a newcomer he was just totally overwhelmed. I started a new game with him and even turned on the tips and tricks but IMO they don't go deep enough. SI is in a funny place trying to get new people playing the game. Even myself as a player who has played at least 200 hours every year for the last 15 years or so I'm finding the micromanagement aspect of the newer versions highly frustrating. Having to change a corner tactic due to a sub is just annoying but not as annoying as conceding from it when you forget to change. Since finding this forum around a week ago ive definitely gained a deeper understanding of what works and what doesn't work however my results haven't indicated this. I created a tactic and within 7 seasons won the Champions League with Brighton, however if I put that tactic on this forum it would be seen as something that wouldn't logically make sense. 2 inside forwards on attack, advanced forward and advanced playmaker on attack. It shouldn't be working according to what I've learnt but its by far and away my most successful results which just adds to my confusion. 

I really think that the players do the tactic, not the opposite. If you have really great players and don´t do anything too strange, the quality of the players will overlay your tactic and you will win the same just because your players are too good for the opponents. 

You see, I also read FM career updates on another forum and I have seen this many times: the FM player picks a 2nd division mid-table team, arrives with lots of difficulties at the 1st division, suffers for some time avoiding relegation with bad tactical choices and then starts to grow and win everything, even with his awful tactics.

Why? Because he is hiring better players and developing youngsters, and the IA never hires and develops as well as we do. So as time goes by, the human managers get this "natural advantage" even if they are not too good at the tactical side.

Tactic helps, of course, but players win  

[FulchesterFred]

17 minutes ago, danyates8 said:

I was in discussion with a friend who doesn't play FM but loves Fifa career modes etc saying I believe he would enjoy FM. He came round so I could give him a run through of the basics and as a newcomer he was just totally overwhelmed. I started a new game with him and even turned on the tips and tricks but IMO they don't go deep enough. SI is in a funny place trying to get new people playing the game. Even myself as a player who has played at least 200 hours every year for the last 15 years or so I'm finding the micromanagement aspect of the newer versions highly frustrating. Having to change a corner tactic due to a sub is just annoying but not as annoying as conceding from it when you forget to change. Since finding this forum around a week ago ive definitely gained a deeper understanding of what works and what doesn't work however my results haven't indicated this. I created a tactic and within 7 seasons won the Champions League with Brighton, however if I put that tactic on this forum it would be seen as something that wouldn't logically make sense. 2 inside forwards on attack, advanced forward and advanced playmaker on attack. It shouldn't be working according to what I've learnt but its by far and away my most successful results which just adds to my confusion. 

Really interesting and agree with everything you just said. I got Spurs  playing well by having 4 attackers on attack duty which is apparently a cardinal sin! 
SI and FM fans will say it’s realistic there are no hard and fast rules. There’s many ways to skin a cat. But the ambiguity isn’t fun. I’ve played for 20 years but finding the matches strange these days. Not just results but the patterns of play seem odd. Eg Kane and Son hardly scoring.

In the match on this post I man marked on of the CFs. Many posters will say you shouldn’t do that (it pulls CDs) out of position). But I’ve asked 100 times what is man marking for if not to cancel the opponent biggest goal threat. SI need to explain these things. You should lose because you’ve been outsmarted, not because you don’t understand the exact positions of an IW,!!

fifa is getting better and better btw. FM will always be my game. FIFA for the kids but……..

 

[FulchesterFred]

16 minutes ago, Tsuru said:

I really think that the players do the tactic, not the opposite. If you have really great players and don´t do anything too strange, the quality of the players will overlay your tactic and you will win the same just because your players are too good for the opponents. 

You see, I also read FM career updates on another forum and I have seen this many times: the FM player picks a 2nd division mid-table team, arrives with lots of difficulties at the 1st division, suffers for some time avoiding relegation with bad tactical choices and then starts to grow and win everything, even with his awful tactics.

Why? Because he is hiring better players and developing youngsters, and the IA never hires and develops as well as we do. So as time goes by, the human managers get this "natural advantage" even if they are not too good at the tactical side.

Tactic helps, of course, but players win  

Which is a bit depressing! The only reason we win is the game isn’t very intelligent 😂. 

[Tsuru]

17 minutos atrás, FulchesterFred disse:

Which is a bit depressing! The only reason we win is the game isn’t very intelligent 😂. 

Oh, I don´t think so  if you do an excellent transfer market (using not just the attribute filters which are very limited) and have a balanced tactic (or a style that fits your players), you will win faster and more naturally than people that win "by exhaustion" or "as time goes by".

The game itself cannot be more intelligent than us, otherwise we would never win, I guess 

[danyates8]

38 minutes ago, Tsuru said:

I really think that the players do the tactic, not the opposite. If you have really great players and don´t do anything too strange, the quality of the players will overlay your tactic and you will win the same just because your players are too good for the opponents. 

You see, I also read FM career updates on another forum and I have seen this many times: the FM player picks a 2nd division mid-table team, arrives with lots of difficulties at the 1st division, suffers for some time avoiding relegation with bad tactical choices and then starts to grow and win everything, even with his awful tactics.

Why? Because he is hiring better players and developing youngsters, and the IA never hires and develops as well as we do. So as time goes by, the human managers get this "natural advantage" even if they are not too good at the tactical side.

Tactic helps, of course, but players win  

I hate to disagree but Fifa is getting worse IMO. Less realistic year on year and no focus on single player game modes puts me off. 

[FulchesterFred]

8 minutes ago, Tsuru said:

Oh, I don´t think so  if you do an excellent transfer market (using not just the attribute filters which are very limited) and have a balanced tactic (or a style that fits your players), you will win faster and more naturally than people that win "by exhaustion" or "as time goes by".

The game itself cannot be more intelligent than us, otherwise we would never win, I guess 

Haha. Fair point

4 minutes ago, danyates8 said:

I hate to disagree but Fifa is getting worse IMO. Less realistic year on year and no focus on single player game modes puts me off. 

It’s all about opinions:-)

[glengarry224]

Agree with others that you shouldn't panic.

One note to be aware of:  when you use the OI 'tackle harder', that is a zonal instruction.  What that means is that wherever that opposition player runs, your player in that zone will try to tackle him harder, even if your player does not have good tackling attributes:  obviously 'tackling' but also composure, decisions, balance, determination, anticipation and concentration.  It can be a dangerous instruction when your opponent is counter-attacking, or anytime that you don't have a well-structured defensive shape.  Imagine that seven of your players are forwards on attack, with only your BWM and two CBs back, your opponent counters with three players and one of your defenders goes in hard for a tackle and misses...

[FulchesterFred]

29 minutes ago, glengarry224 said:

Agree with others that you shouldn't panic.

One note to be aware of:  when you use the OI 'tackle harder', that is a zonal instruction.  What that means is that wherever that opposition player runs, your player in that zone will try to tackle him harder, even if your player does not have good tackling attributes:  obviously 'tackling' but also composure, decisions, balance, determination, anticipation and concentration.  It can be a dangerous instruction when your opponent is counter-attacking, or anytime that you don't have a well-structured defensive shape.  Imagine that seven of your players are forwards on attack, with only your BWM and two CBs back, your opponent counters with three players and one of your defenders goes in hard for a tackle and misses...

Great advice!!

[p_kk]

I probably try all 3 to attack, Targetman(attack) or poacher, winger attack, iw attack to give the most option to your playmaker and 2 fullback, Every one else hold position and try to win the second ball after the first wave of attack fails.