Time to give up

[Justified]

I feel like regroup and the BWM role doesn't quite sit right with me because it's an ultra pressing role. I haven't tried both of those together myself but that's what jumps out at me at first. Because he's on the same side as the IWa and WBsu maybe that's where you're getting exposed defensively? Though that channel?

[Oli99]

41 minutes ago, Justified said:

I feel like regroup and the BWM role doesn't quite sit right with me because it's an ultra pressing role. I haven't tried both of those together myself but that's what jumps out at me at first. Because he's on the same side as the IWa and WBsu maybe that's where you're getting exposed defensively? Though that channel?

That does make sense, there's probably too much space down that side. Perhaps a carrilero or cm s

[Fatkidscantjump]

I think in a counter attacking system a Dlp on defend duty isnt needed. Usually the ball magnets in counter systems are used to hold up the ball in transition while the attackers progress. 

A Dlp on defend in the Dm strata is placed too low on the pitch and is too conservative to effectively contribute to counter attacks unless he has Ppms.

Personally i would change the dlp to a simple Dm(d), the left cm to Cm(s) or bbm maybe and the mezzala to an advanced playmaker on attack duty. But it depends on the players ofc. With an Ap(a) you will get someone who is actively trying to initiate the counter by running, dribbling or passing.

[YAMS]

6 hours ago, Oli99 said:

Generally the channels as you say but, some through the middle as well 

A 4-3-3 base shape is naturally weak defensively in the wings/channels. You can get doubled up on very easily & if the oppo has good channel play through a MEZ or inverting wide man your DM can be overwhelmed. Like others have said I would get your playmaker further up the pitch maybe & your DM a more aggressive transition role. 

I would also be tempted to play a 4-1-4-1 away from home as a base shape rather than 4-1-2-2-1. Get your wingers back to the the midfield strata. This would help with a counter attack base set up. Make those wingers an attacking mentality for the counter though. 

I still think your giving up too much space as well. If you do go to a 4-1-4-1 raise your line of engagement to high. 

Edited September 6, 2021 by YAMS

[Oli99]

OK, so is the DM going to need to be a regista for example, in which case who, if any do I give a defend duty to. I've switched the BWM to a car s. I'm playing the right central midfielder as a CM a, does this need to be the playmaker instead with a defensive mid behind him ?

I have been playing 4141 with little success but, I haven't played attacking wingers so, I'll switch to that and raise the LOE. Do I use this against the very best teams though ?

[YAMS]

9 minutes ago, Oli99 said:

OK, so is the DM going to need to be a regista for example, in which case who, if any do I give a defend duty to. I've switched the BWM to a car s. I'm playing the right central midfielder as a CM a, does this need to be the playmaker instead with a defensive mid behind him ?

I have been playing 4141 with little success but, I haven't played attacking wingers so, I'll switch to that and raise the LOE. Do I use this against the very best teams though ?

Try it, see what happens. There's no magic formula to win every game. All you ideally do is put your players in the best possible circumstances. You can make every correct tactical decision & still lose. That's football. 

Just taking the where are you conceding goals question from. Look at the goals you've conceded, where did the play/pass originate from? What could you have done differently to stop it happening? To prevent in the future you have to look at the past. If you keep sending your team out making the same mistakes you will possibly get the same outcomes.

[Oli99]

OK thank you. The goals have generally started down our left side,  which is understandable, that's where I've concentrated on improving 

[YAMS]

1 hour ago, Oli99 said:

OK thank you. The goals have generally started down our left side,  which is understandable, that's where I've concentrated on improving 

Ok, so maybe you have a weakness down the lhs or perhaps you played an opposition with a particularly strong or targeted right flank game. Ideally, if you had the opportunity to see it happening, you would have made positional or role adjustments to try to stop it occurring. 

It's a learning game, perhaps you lost this match but can fix it or see it for next time. As someone mentioned earlier on, don't go changing too much at once. Often a subtle change is enough to effect an outcome. 

Personally if I was playing a 4-1-2-2-1 shape & I saw the oppo right back or RHS in general was very aggressive I would pull back my left winger to a left mid starting position & possible either slide my def mid to the LHS a touch or make the left mid a Carrilero or CMD/S with a stay wide instruction. This would overload the LHS in defence more. You could then also attack down you RHS to give the oppo more of a problem.... Just examples here of how I might approach this.  

[dinmor]

Hi.

I'm curious about something. A lot of people seems to be coming with a lot of inputs, but I'm still unsure of what you're really trying to achieve? Do you want to play a certain style, or do you just want to achieve the best results with your current team? 

If it's the first, then I'd love for you to really try and consider what that style you are trying to achieve:
1. Defence
- Where do you want to allow your opponent space? (formation)
- How would you like to do it? (instructions)
- Who will be the outlet player(s), if your team wins the ball? (roles)

2. Transitions. 
- Again. What type of side do you want to be? Do you want to attack fast and counter, do you want to build up slow or something in the middle? (Instructions and player roles)

3. Attack
- How are you attacking? (Direct, short, wide, narrow, tempo)
- Who will be the main goalscorer(s)? (Roles and duties)
- Who will supply the main goalscorer(s)? (Roles and duties)
- Which players are staying back and providing cover? (Roles and duties)

In general: How much risk do you want to take? Will you be a defensive side hoping for narrow wins? Or are you a suicidal Bielsa-type, who just want to watch the nets burn?

 

If you want to achieve the maximum with your current squad, then you should upload some screenshots of your squads comparison to the rest of the league. What are their strengths and weaknesses? Once you know that, then you can start considering how to get the most out of your current team and hopefully overachieve. 

 

 

 

[Tsuru]

2 horas atrás, dinmor disse:

If you want to achieve the maximum with your current squad, then you should upload some screenshots of your squads comparison to the rest of the league. What are their strengths and weaknesses? Once you know that, then you can start considering how to get the most out of your current team and hopefully overachieve. 

Or you can try a "blank formation" with no specific TIs and give more focus to the balance of roles and duties. It is something I have been done as I don´t have any specific playstyle in mind, if I win I am happy. 

[Oli99]

13 hours ago, YAMS said:

Ok, so maybe you have a weakness down the lhs or perhaps you played an opposition with a particularly strong or targeted right flank game. Ideally, if you had the opportunity to see it happening, you would have made positional or role adjustments to try to stop it occurring. 

It's a learning game, perhaps you lost this match but can fix it or see it for next time. As someone mentioned earlier on, don't go changing too much at once. Often a subtle change is enough to effect an outcome. 

Personally if I was playing a 4-1-2-2-1 shape & I saw the oppo right back or RHS in general was very aggressive I would pull back my left winger to a left mid starting position & possible either slide my def mid to the LHS a touch or make the left mid a Carrilero or CMD/S with a stay wide instruction. This would overload the LHS in defence more. You could then also attack down you RHS to give the oppo more of a problem.... Just examples here of how I might approach this.  

Great advice, in this scenario, a carrilero helped considerably, thank you

[Oli99]

2 hours ago, dinmor said:

Hi.

I'm curious about something. A lot of people seems to be coming with a lot of inputs, but I'm still unsure of what you're really trying to achieve? Do you want to play a certain style, or do you just want to achieve the best results with your current team? 

If it's the first, then I'd love for you to really try and consider what that style you are trying to achieve:
1. Defence
- Where do you want to allow your opponent space? (formation)
- How would you like to do it? (instructions)
- Who will be the outlet player(s), if your team wins the ball? (roles)

2. Transitions. 
- Again. What type of side do you want to be? Do you want to attack fast and counter, do you want to build up slow or something in the middle? (Instructions and player roles)

3. Attack
- How are you attacking? (Direct, short, wide, narrow, tempo)
- Who will be the main goalscorer(s)? (Roles and duties)
- Who will supply the main goalscorer(s)? (Roles and duties)
- Which players are staying back and providing cover? (Roles and duties)

In general: How much risk do you want to take? Will you be a defensive side hoping for narrow wins? Or are you a suicidal Bielsa-type, who just want to watch the nets burn?

 

If you want to achieve the maximum with your current squad, then you should upload some screenshots of your squads comparison to the rest of the league. What are their strengths and weaknesses? Once you know that, then you can start considering how to get the most out of your current team and hopefully overachieve. 

 

 

 

There's no particular playing style I'm set on but, I do think with this team, counter is the way to go to get the best out of them, I may well be wrong, I'm still learning. The plan I have is to attack down the wings with the DLF and Cm a keeping up with them and to be getting in the box.   Saying that I will still consider all the questions you're asking. The plan is to be a defensive team and achieve narrow wins but, whether this can be achieved with a 4123,  I'm not sure. When I can, I'll upload some screenshots of the squad. 

[YAMS]

7 hours ago, Oli99 said:

Great advice, in this scenario, a carrilero helped considerably, thank you

You're very welcome.

In certain situations you have to stop trying to be a hero so to speak & plug gaps to stop opposition threats. There's nothing wrong with a few defensive minded roles to deal with threats at all. When you stop the oppo threat you will often attain more possession for your supporting/attacking players to take effect. 

If you look at the 4-1-2-2-1 basic shape you see where the gaps in your defensive shape are, down the wings & in the channels. Get a supporting role or two in there if needed. Not every player can attack, you need a balance & if you are to be successful you need to earn the right to be successful by winning certain battles on the pitch. 

You need to think of a real football game where you see players dominating and then what managers/coaches try to do to stop them.