Can't consistently win away games when losing possession, player instructions don't work

[guttea]

I am really annoyed that I can't achieve any consistent results away. I thought I figured it out, I've basically tweaked the mentality from positive to balanced, I am less aggressive with the duties (switch wingers from At to Su), using OI to mark the dangerous players and so on. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, no consistency at all. The thing is I even watched a couple of games on full, the opponent controls possession and plays in front of my box which is flooded with my defenders and midfielders yet they still find a way through, it's like they're prime Barcelona with one-twos through the concentrated line of my players, this should be impossible. See the screenshot, I have a proper backline, my wingers are tucked in tracking the FB yet Weghorst, Edwards and Kownacki somehow get through the middle and score the equalizer:

this basically happens every away game if the opponent plays possession football. if we can't get possession (which is always difficult away), they just keep playing in front of my defense and eventually score a couple of goals. If I'm lucky, I get a couple from setpieces and get a draw but as I said no consistency at all.

 

Here's my away tactic, same as 4231 at home but as I said less attacking duties and mentality, lower defense line (at home i play high line and LOE), more disciplined (at home I play with be expressive TI and counter-press on turnover instead of regroup):

 

 

Edited September 19, 2021 by guttea

[guttea]

Here's another example of stupidity from the same game. Ok, Toussart gives away a penalty on Mbabu here and I concede but that's not my problem, my problem is why Toussart is in that position at all instead of passing the runner to the LB? and then, I guess because Toussart is out of position, nobody is tracking Weghorst so if the cross comes in,  Weghorst has a free shot from the edge of the area? Ok, I put Locatelli (the DLP) to man mark the Wolfsburg AMC (Edwards) and he's doing it but Cunha and Vlasic are ball watching and my defenders are doing who knows what. No top league-level team would make such stupid mistakes. Btw, Toussart's role is BWM on the right side of the pitch as above and has inbuilt "HOLD POSITION" instruction so what he's doing as a left full back?

Edited September 19, 2021 by guttea

[CARRERA]

Dunno whats wrong with Tousart, maybe because hes a BWM. However, regrouping into defensive shape and pressing urgently doesnt work. Once the other team fully transitioned into the final third, pressing will open up gaps in your defensive line. So you either want to to regroup and then hold position to cut off passing lanes, or you want to win the ball further up the pitch or at least around the middle third. Same goes for PGD as it sends your forward players further forward to mark out the defenders when the others teams GK has possession. 

[guttea]

15 minutes ago, CARRERA said:

Dunno whats wrong with Tousart, maybe because hes a BWM. However, regrouping into defensive shape and pressing urgently doesnt work. Once the other team fully transitioned into the final third, pressing will open up gaps in your defensive line. So you either want to to regroup and then hold position to cut off passing lanes, or you want to win the ball further up the pitch or at least around the middle third. Same goes for PGD as it sends your forward players further forward to mark out the defenders when the others teams GK has possession. 

well, the idea is to use the forward line (4 people up top) to press their playing out of the back, maybe get a turnover or a mistake. It does actually work in the games I watched, not always but sometimes the opponents' defenders just kick it out under pressure and sometimes we intercept their passing in the midfield.  Regroup is for when they played out of our press, we should regroup and hold our positions, not chasing the ball like Tousart is doing.

here are Tousart's attributes btw, great anticipation, positioning, teamwork, good composure, concentration,decisions

Edited September 19, 2021 by guttea

[zabyl]

6 dakika önce, guttea said:

well, the idea is to use the forward line (4 people up top) to press their playing out of the back, maybe get a turnover or a mistake.

Use split block pressing with forward players instead of urgent pressing if you don't want to disrupt your defensive shape with regroup. It can be safer like that as you use a counter based tactic.

Don't use lower tempo on balanced or lower mentalities if your team doesn't have great technique and movement.

BWM leaves his position too much to close down opponent players and it can't give proper defensive cover to your WB when WB pushes forward. BWMd can be used with FBs but this can be too passive. Why don't you use a BWMs with FBs? Using WB roles are risky with 4-2-3-1 if you don't have proper defensive cover for them.

I don't suggest prevent short GK distribution with standard LOE, counter and regroup. It contradicts with these counter based TIs. 

 

[CARRERA]

21 minutes ago, guttea said:

well, the idea is to use the forward line (4 people up top) to press their playing out of the back, maybe get a turnover or a mistake. It does actually work in the games I watched, not always but sometimes the opponents' defenders just kick it out under pressure and sometimes we intercept their passing in the midfield.  Regroup is for when they played out of our press, we should regroup and hold our positions, not chasing the ball like Tousart is doing.

The things are not working as you think they do. Prevent short GK Distribution is most effective when the other team actually trys to play out short from the GK - it only affects your players behavior if the GK is in possession.. It comes at the risk of being played over the top. So if the GK anyway trys to play it long you just increase the risk for that play to be successful.

When loosing the ball, the first instructions that kick in are your transitional instructions. So instead of preasuring the ball, your players will regroup and once transitioned into the defensive shape, they will start pressing and opening up gaps in your lines.

Edited September 19, 2021 by CARRERA

[guttea]

Ok guys but then how do I deal with away games? The problem is I don't want to play counter football, I want to control possession but my standard home instructions of high defensive line, high LOE, pressing, positive mentality doesn't work in away games, I get scored on by long balls behind my high line and I can't keep possession anyway (again, this is only about the away games). I don't want to have to switch every time between completely counter tactic and completely high press tactic, this is why my away tactic is just a small modification of the home one. Here's my home one, as you can see it has postivie mentality and 4 attack duties instead of 2 as well as high press, LOE, counterpress. It works well, I am undefeated at home. My goal is to have my away tactic be a small variation of it.

[zabyl]

37 dakika önce, guttea said:

Ok guys but then how do I deal with away games? The problem is I don't want to play counter football, I want to control possession but my standard home instructions of high defensive line, high LOE, pressing, positive mentality doesn't work in away games, I get scored on by long balls behind my high line and I can't keep possession anyway (again, this is only about the away games). I don't want to have to switch every time between completely counter tactic

 

37 dakika önce, guttea said:

this is why my away tactic is just a small modification of the home one. Here's my home one, as you can see it has postivie mentality and 4 attack duties instead of 2 as well as high press, LOE, counterpress. It works well, I am undefeated at home. My goal is to have my away tactic be a small variation of it.

 

You don't have to use a counter based tactic for away games. You can reduce the risks of your home tactic to make it more balanced for away games.

Positive mentality, play out of defence, be more expressive, slightly lower tempo, counter-press, higher DL+LOE, more urgent pressing, prevent short GK have high risks on away games. BWM-WB combo, WB roles for FB, attack duty AMC-ST partnership, attack duty FB, etc all have high risks for away games.

Edited September 19, 2021 by zabyl

[CARRERA]

42 minutes ago, guttea said:

Ok guys but then how do I deal with away games?

No need to throw everything over. Its important for your players to become familar with a certain style of play. Only make small changes to prevent certain situations. If balls are played over the top, drop the defensive line and see how it plays out. If you cant keep possession, remove Counter TI to take your timer for the transition or lower the passing directness. Be careful tho, playing safer with the ball does also mean beeing less threatening to the goal. You need to find the "sweet spot" for your team. You can also just remove Counterpress if you are looking for a slightly faster transition into your defensive shape without completely wiping out the chance of winning back the ball immediately.

[Johnny Ace]

22 hours ago, guttea said:

Ok guys but then how do I deal with away games? The problem is I don't want to play counter football, I want to control possession 

That isn't a possession tactic though, just ticking a few TIs doesn't mean you'll control the game. As mentioned wingbacks are risky in any formation without a covering DM but not only that, they aren't possession friendly roles. They're runners on the ball & pose a turnover risk. The team mentality has more direct passing & bumps up the individual player mentalities. They won't be thinking "keep the ball, play it safe" they'll be thinking "get the ball forward quickly, anyway possible". The BWM as mentioned, will hold position but look the chase the ball down (with his individual pressing, team pressing & his aggression) for a 4-2-3-1 that double pivot needs to be pretty sturdy, having him ball chasing is a risk.

It probably works well at home as you're overloading the opposition then away from home they're able to pick out the holes 

In your screenie, with the BWM at LB (hello Harry Kane ) he's probably covering for your left back who's tucked in with your CD's (why???). There could be an event that led up to that or your BMW to be over on the left or just the ME likes narrow defenses  so he's gone ball chasing with the lack of LB

Edited September 20, 2021 by Johnny Ace

[DarJ]

21 hours ago, guttea said:

The problem is I don't want to play counter football, I want to control possession

I'm tired of seeing comments like this (no offence). The truth is you won't always control possession, there's always going to be a team or 2 that will be able to keep the ball better than you and when you come against a team like that you have to find another way to win. That's just the nature of football 

[guttea]

On 20/09/2021 at 05:34, Johnny Ace said:

That isn't a possession tactic though, just ticking a few TIs doesn't mean you'll control the game. As mentioned wingbacks are risky in any formation without a covering DM but not only that, they aren't possession friendly roles. They're runners on the ball & pose a turnover risk. The team mentality has more direct passing & bumps up the individual player mentalities. They won't be thinking "keep the ball, play it safe" they'll be thinking "get the ball forward quickly, anyway possible". The BWM as mentioned, will hold position but look the chase the ball down (with his individual pressing, team pressing & his aggression) for a 4-2-3-1 that double pivot needs to be pretty sturdy, having him ball chasing is a risk.

It probably works well at home as you're overloading the opposition then away from home they're able to pick out the holes 

In your screenie, with the BWM at LB (hello Harry Kane ) he's probably covering for your left back who's tucked in with your CD's (why???). There could be an event that led up to that or your BMW to be over on the left or just the ME likes narrow defenses  so he's gone ball chasing with the lack of LB

what do you mean more direct passing? I have lower tempo and standard passing with balanced mentality in away games. And yes, I have no clue why my left back who is a WB is sitting narrow in my defense.

also how is 4231 not a possession tactic? the whole idea with wingbacks is that the midfield keeps patiently building (lower tempo, be creative) until a wingback gets free and gets played in by the mid and then he crosses to AF or IF or cuts back to AM for the finish. but for some reason my possession stats are only 50%.

On 20/09/2021 at 05:52, DarJ said:

I'm tired of seeing comments like this (no offence). The truth is you won't always control possession, there's always going to be a team or 2 that will be able to keep the ball better than you and when you come against a team like that you have to find another way to win. That's just the nature of football 

as I said above, I don't expect to dominate every game but I do expect to regularly control possession. Instead my team is 9th in possession stats in the league. After watching a couple of games I noticed we actually more often score on the counters than otherwise.

[guttea]

On 19/09/2021 at 09:11, zabyl said:

 You can reduce the risks of your home tactic to make it more balanced for away games.

 

well, that's literally what I've done, removing positive mentality, lowering the defense line and going from 4 attack duties to 2. But I guess you're saying I didn't make it defensive enough. Ok, I will try with FBs instead of WB and no urgent pressing because it seems the pressing sucks in my defensive players to chase the ball instead of doing their jobs.

[Johnny Ace]

3 minutes ago, guttea said:

what do you mean more direct passing? I have lower tempo and standard passing with balanced mentality in away games. And yes, I have no clue why my left back who is a WB is sitting narrow in my defense.

also how is 4231 not a possession tactic? the whole idea with wingbacks is that the midfield keeps patiently building (lower tempo, be creative) until a wingback gets free and gets played in by the mid and then he crosses to AF or IF or cuts back to AM for the finish. but for some reason my possession stats are only 50%.

as I said above, I don't expect to dominate every game but I do expect to regularly control possession. Instead my team is 9th in possession stats in the league. After watching a couple of games I noticed we actually more often score on the counters than otherwise.

Positive team mentality comes with more direct passing, adding shorter passing doesn't equal short passing, it's just shorter passing which puts it inline with the passing directness of the Balanced team mentality. 4-2-3-1 is a shape. a shape that can be used to create a possession tactic. Your away tactic looks more possession friendly but you have Counter ticked on both when you don't want to Counter

Like I said, you've gotta think of your roles for a possession tactic,  wingbacks stretch play, they make you play wider, they're more difficult to be found with the ball. Players that run on the ball, take risky passes, shoot more often & stretch your teams width are all possession risk roles, they risk you losing possession because of the attacking risk they add to the team.

For Team Instructions, there's plenty of possession options to tick, but it's finding the balance, like the Counter attack isn't possession friendly but it offers offensive threat  

For possession, you need the shape (4-2-3-1 is ideal) the TI's & the player roles. You've gotta balance to them a) control possession b) be defensively sound & c) offer enough attacking threat    

[guttea]

Here's another example, I beat Dortmund away 2-3 in the German cup which is good but I lost possession 58-42 and I lost in xG 2.45-1.95. And again they play in front of my defense and score:

here poulsen receives the ball and passes to Fabio Vieira who while under pressure from two players (Vlasic and Mittelstadt) does a reverse pass to Sancho who receives a ball in the box after somehow passing right down the middle through 3 of my defenders without being picked up (what are Tousart, Ajer and Zeki doing?). like I'd even understand if they spread the ball to the flank to Passlack who then did a cross into the box because that's fair enough, my winger Dilrosun fell asleep and lost his marker. But Sancho shouldn't be running through the middle and completely freely receiving the ball in the box when he starts the run surrounded by four of my players.

Edited September 21, 2021 by guttea

[CARRERA]

32 minutes ago, guttea said:

I do expect to regularly control possession.

You are trying to achieve possession for the sake of it. Low tempo for example is most effective to use possession as a defensive style method as it allows your players to rest with the ball. However, it is very easy to defend against it and unless your team is way better than the other team you will really struggle to score. If thats what you are looking for, then fine. If its not, you need to understand that possession is a result of dominating the match and not of playing slow, predictable and non threatening. 

The problem with wingbacks is not that they are going forwards or create width (you need that) but they are instructed to dribble down the line and cross. you dont want that usually as you are looking for combination play. better use fullbacks, or inverted fullbacks as both are more involved. As you are playing with a double pivot in center you can play them both with an attack duty agains smaller opponents.

If you are playing with shorter passing, individually instruct your creative player to play more direct its a nessecary component to provide threatening passes. It doesnt mean your players will play long balls, it just means they will play forward (vertical / diagonal), risky passes.

Edited September 21, 2021 by CARRERA

[Johnny Ace]

I wouldn't worry about it @guttea, it could be any number of things, even the best teams in the World concede goals 

[guttea]

8 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

Positive team mentality comes with more direct passing, adding shorter passing doesn't equal short passing, it's just shorter passing which puts it inline with the passing directness of the Balanced team mentality. 4-2-3-1 is a shape. a shape that can be used to create a possession tactic. Your away tactic looks more possession friendly but you have Counter ticked on both when you don't want to Counter

Like I said, you've gotta think of your roles for a possession tactic,  wingbacks stretch play, they make you play wider, they're more difficult to be found with the ball. Players that run on the ball, take risky passes, shoot more often & stretch your teams width are all possession risk roles, they risk you losing possession because of the attacking risk they add to the team.

For Team Instructions, there's plenty of possession options to tick, but it's finding the balance, like the Counter attack isn't possession friendly but it offers offensive threat  

For possession, you need the shape (4-2-3-1 is ideal) the TI's & the player roles. You've gotta balance to them a) control possession b) be defensively sound & c) offer enough attacking threat    

I understand what you're saying but if I'm trying to play like prime barca didn't they have wingbacks like Dani Alves to stretch play and add width? yet they still controlled possession. The same with the counter, the idea is that if we win the ball in the opposing third of the pitch we should go fast on the break and use the fact that their defenders are probably out of position (and Barca played like that too when winning the ball up the field). But at the same time sure if we win the ball in defense I don't want to launch a long ball for the AF to run onto, we're not playing like Burnley. So that's why I have the problem with the "counter" instruction.

btw, appreciate all the help from you and other posters here, always learn something new on these forums

[_mxrky]

29 minutes ago, guttea said:

well, that's literally what I've done, removing positive mentality, lowering the defense line and going from 4 attack duties to 2. But I guess you're saying I didn't make it defensive enough. Ok, I will try with FBs instead of WB and no urgent pressing because it seems the pressing sucks in my defensive players to chase the ball instead of doing their jobs.

4231 is not a good formation to play less conservatively with Its top heavy. You'd be better of using a 4411 or something for away games

 

[CARRERA]

 

19 minutes ago, guttea said:

here poulsen receives the ball and passes to Fabio Vieira who while under pressure from two players (Vlasic and Mittelstadt) does a reverse pass to Sancho who receives a ball in the box after somehow passing right down the middle through 3 of my defenders without being picked up (what are Tousart, Ajer and Zeki doing?). like I'd even understand if they spread the ball to the flank to Passlack who then did a cross into the box because that's fair enough, my winger Dilrosun fell asleep and lost his marker. But Sancho shouldn't be running through the middle and completely freely receiving the ball in the box when he starts the run surrounded by four of my players.

Your team is under great preassure and that can cause mistakes in terms of movement and positioning especially if they run at you once after another. Dortmund is committing many players forward so they almost equal you in terms of players (8 vs 9). You can accept that (or properbly your players cant do better) and simply see out the match but you need to step back then in terms of defensive intensity and just shut down your area. Or you can fight against that and attack them before they cage you in. Of course at the risk of being ran over.

Edited September 21, 2021 by CARRERA

[Johnny Ace]

Just now, guttea said:

I understand what you're saying but if I'm trying to play like prime barca didn't they have wingbacks like Dani Alves to stretch play and add width? yet they still controlled possession. The same with the counter, the idea is that if we win the ball in the opposing third of the pitch we should go fast on the break and use the fact that their defenders are probably out of position (and Barca played like that too when winning the ball up the field). But at the same time sure if we win the ball in defense I don't want to launch a long ball for the AF to run onto, we're not playing like Burnley. So that's why I have the problem with the "counter" instruction.

btw, appreciate all the help from you and other posters here, always learn something new on these forums

It's a piece of cake to win the possession battle when you have a much better team than the opposition, that's why Barca smashed teams then, they had a phenomenal team. I'm sure they used to get like 70% in some games but that's pretty difficult to achieve in FM, I won't say impossible but it's close, possession in FM is worked differently to real life 

[guttea]

42 minutes ago, CARRERA said:

You are trying to achieve possession for the sake of it. Low tempo for example is most effective to use possession as a defensive style method as it allows your players to rest with the ball. However, it is very easy to defend against it and unless your team is way better than the other team you will really struggle to score. If thats what you are looking for, then fine. If its not, you need to understand that possession is a result of dominating the match and not of playing slow, predictable and non threatening. 

The problem with wingbacks is not that they are going forwards or create width (you need that) but they are instructed to dribble down the line and cross. you dont want that usually as you are looking for combination play. better use fullbacks, or inverted fullbacks as both are more involved. As you are playing with a double pivot in center you can play them both with an attack duty agains smaller opponents.

If you are playing with shorter passing, individually instruct your creative player to play more direct its a nessecary component to provide threatening passes. It doesnt mean your players will play long balls, it just means they will play forward (vertical / diagonal), risky passes.

thanks for the help and yes I absolutely agree that I don't want possession for possession's sake. But I do want to dominate matches, instead what often happens against equal opponents is we win on the XG but not possession. This tells me that we're basically playing on the counter against equal opponents instead of dominating them. And yes, I do instruct my AM (Vlasic) to take more risks with passing, it is a component of my play and why he's the top assister in the league.

Like, I understand that I sort of have a "first-world problem" here in that I am winning but not actually consistently playing how I want to play. In some sense it's a good problem to have because it means that my team has a plan A (dominate possession) and a plan B (fast counter) but somehow it feels like my plan B (counter) is utilized more than plan A. It feels like simply because my team has a relatively average reputation, other teams automatically dominate possession against us and then we successfully hit them on the break even though that's not really my intention.

31 minutes ago, CARRERA said:

 

Your team is under great preassure and that can cause mistakes in terms of movement and positioning especially if they run at you once after another. Dortmund is committing many players forward so they almost equal you in terms of players (8 vs 9). You can accept that (or properbly your players cant do better) and simply see out the match but you need to step back then in terms of defensive intensity and just shut down your area. Or you can fight against that and attack them before they cage you in. Of course at the risk of being ran over.

that's true but still it feels like in real life such a compact defense as in the screenshot shouldn't be leaking chances down the middle. In the centre of the pitch there's 7 of my players against 4 of theirs, everyone's compact, their attackers are double or even triple marked. I mean, maybe my players are just outclassed by Dortmund and are too slow to react but still it feels weird that we can't shut up shop against such a narrow attack.

Edited September 21, 2021 by guttea

[CARRERA]

15 minutes ago, guttea said:

And yes, I do instruct my AM (Vlasic) to take more risks with passing

Did you increase his "passing directness" or added "take more risks"? Those are different things. 

16 minutes ago, guttea said:

This tells me that we're basically playing on the counter against equal opponents instead of dominating them.

Yes, but thats what you told your team. quick transitions (Counter TI), direct roles up the pitch (Winger, AF). Also Wingbacks, who are also very direct roles. 

 

27 minutes ago, guttea said:

that's true but still it feels like in real life such a compact defense as in the screenshot shouldn't be leaking chances down the middle.

Well, players being back does not equal being compact. Your team is still looking to press aggressively. that will force players (also defenders) out of position and dortmund is playing very direct to exactly exploit those gaps. All the passes you described, Bellingham to Poulsen, Poulsen (into space) to fabio and fabio to sancho were vertical / diagonal and intended to threaten the goal. 

[guttea]

55 minutes ago, CARRERA said:

Did you increase his "passing directness" or added "take more risks"? Those are different things

no I didn't increase the directness because I assume it's just long balls, no? if it's long balls, Vlasic is already playing quite close to the enemy area so what's the point? or am I missing something? i put "take more risks" so he does more through balls to AF and onrushing inverted forwards/wingers. Edit: ok, just re-read your comment, you're saying "more direct" doesn't equal long balls so i'll try it.

Quote

Yes, but thats what you told your team. quick transitions (Counter TI), direct roles up the pitch (Winger, AF). Also Wingbacks, who are also very direct roles.

ok so suppose I want to dominate equal teams (like Gladbach, Wolfsburg etc) and not play on the counter. is switching WB to FB and unticking counter enough or is there something else I should do to achieve possession play?

Quote

Well, players being back does not equal being compact. Your team is still looking to press aggressively. that will force players (also defenders) out of position and dortmund is playing very direct to exactly exploit those gaps. All the passes you described, Bellingham to Poulsen, Poulsen (into space) to fabio and fabio to sancho were vertical / diagonal and intended to threaten the goal. 

Poulsen to Fabio was a sideways pass and there was no space, as you can see in the second screenshot fabio was still in front of my defense (mittelstadt). in fact I put OI to press on Fabio since I noticed he was their top assister and playing as AP. I actually always do this, putting press on the opposition's playmakers and wingbacks to stop them from providing assists/crosses. otherwise, if you give them time on the ball, they will hurt you. but I guess Fabio is just so good and press-resistant it didn't work.

Edited September 21, 2021 by guttea

[guttea]

Also does anyone know why when I hover over the link between Malen (AF-A)  and Vlasic (AM-A) it says they have a good partnership "however the roles assigned to both players are far from suitable and do not work well together"?

[CARRERA]

48 minutes ago, guttea said:

Poulsen to Fabio was a sideways pass and there was no space, as you can see in the second screenshot fabio was still in front of my defense (mittelstadt).

Ok sorry, i thought it went like this. But obviously i misunderstood then what was happening

48 minutes ago, guttea said:

no I didn't increase the directness because I assume it's just long balls, no?

No, thats not true. There are only two possible intentions for a pass 1.) to maintain possession which can also be a sideways or backpass 2.) to threaten the space behind the opposition you pass by, which is usually achieved by a vertical pass. Both have up and downsides, but not lets get too deep into this. The most effective pass however is a diagonal pass as it makes the defense move and forces them to shake up their defensive shape while your team can gain space and threaten those areas. The translation to FM may be misleading but is relatively simple: Shorter passing is primarily asking your players to play passes that maintain possession but not nessecarily be threatening and direct passing is primarily asking your players to look for threatening passes at the risk loosing possession. And dont get me wrong, your team needs both. Players who maintain possession and players who play threatening passes towards the goal. If you combine that with staggered movement of your attacking squad, you will get many diagonal balls.

"Take more risks" as an equivalent to pass into space which does not equal through balls. Throughballs are vertical / diagonal balls into space. Pass into space / take more risks does simply mean, that players are looking to pass into space instead of passing into feet. However the intention of the pass will remain accordingly to your passing instructions.

48 minutes ago, guttea said:

ok so suppose I want to dominate equal teams (like Gladbach, Wolfsburg etc) and not play on the counter. is switching WB to FB and unticking counter enough or is there something else I should do to achieve possession play?

Thats a start at least, but you may need to change more. unfortunately i cant see how exactly your team plays. And you really need to up your tactical familarity.

Edited September 21, 2021 by CARRERA

[guttea]

35 minutes ago, CARRERA said:

Ok sorry, i thought it went like this. But obviously i misunderstood then what was happening

no sorry, it's on me for not explaining it properly, basically Tousart again gets sucked in by the ball, Sancho chills out in front of Ajer and Zeki and then runs onto the pass from Fabio

I actually unticked more urgent pressing for the Dortmund game and put Tousart with CM-D which has Hold Position PI instead of BWM, but I guess because of his attributes he just can't help himself but go ball chasing. Zeki actually steps up as well for some reason instead of staying in line with Ajer. Don't get me wrong, it's a good play by Dortmund, and obviously every goal is caused by a defensive mistake somewhere but maybe it's because of my frustrated experiences watching Barca try to play through the congested centre and fail to score, that I'm surprised they get through my central defense

 

35 minutes ago, CARRERA said:

There are only two possible intentions for a pass. 1.) to maintain possession which can also be sideways or backpass 2.) to threaten the space behind the opposition you pass by, which is usually achieved by a vertical pass.

thanks for explaining the distinction between the "pass intention" (vertical vs sideways) and "take more risks". One would assume that "take more risks"/"pass into space" would equal "threatening passes into space"  but you're saying that's not the case. As I said, always learning something new here

Edited September 21, 2021 by guttea

[CARRERA]

2 hours ago, guttea said:

I guess because of his attributes he just can't help himself but go ball chasing

I think that is because he is neither familar with the role, nor with the tactic itself. It’s essential. Up familiarities. However, in terms of attributes, you want your CMs to have got positioning, antizipation, bravery, aggression, marking and tackling. (Also physicals are nice) I don’t know Tousarts attributes, but maybe have look into that to check if he is a potential CM in a double Pivot.

Sometimes it’s just good to get over it and move on to the next match.

3 hours ago, guttea said:

Don't get me wrong, it's a good play by Dortmund, and obviously every goal is caused by a defensive mistake somewhere but maybe it's because of my frustrated experiences watching Barca try to play through the congested centre and fail to score, that I'm surprised they get through my central defense

That combination by the way is what direct play looks like, eventhough most of the passes were „short“ in terms of distance.

Maybe now, when watching Barca on TV, you may notice when and who is playing those threatening diagonal / vertical passes. and they do, they are not only passing from left to right on a low tempo to keep the ball. They didn’t even in their prime. 

[guttea]

13 minutes ago, CARRERA said:

I think that is because he is neither familar with the role, nor with the tactic itself. It’s essential. Up familiarities. However, in terms of attributes, you want your CMs to have got positioning, antizipation, bravery, aggression, marking and tackling. (Also physicals are nice) I don’t know Tousarts attributes, but maybe have look into that to check if he is a potential CM in a double Pivot.

I actually posted Tousart's attributes above in this thread, just below your first comment. Regarding familiarities, I was so confused because he actually played in this position all season (it's April already). Turns out it's because his individual training is on BBM role instead because in the pre-season I tried out a tactic with a BBM role and I forgot to change this in the training screen later. Tbh I feel this is kinda stupid by the game, he started 26 games this season as a BWM, surely he should know how to play it by now no matter what his individual training is. I also found another player, one of my starter IFs who was on the wrong individual training as well and he also has "awkward" on his position/role/duty in the tactics familiarity screen despite him starting 31 games in that position and providing 14 goals and 12 assists.

Btw, do you know the answer to my question earlier?

Quote

why when I hover over the link between Malen (AF-A)  and Vlasic (AM-A) it says they have a good partnership "however the roles assigned to both players are far from suitable and do not work well together"?

 

Edited September 21, 2021 by guttea

[CARRERA]

7 minutes ago, guttea said:

Btw, do you know the answer to my question earlier?

Quote

why when I hover over the link between Malen (AF-A)  and Vlasic (AM-A) it says they have a good partnership "however the roles assigned to both players are far from suitable and do not work well together"?

Expand  

No sorry, I just noticed that those links change depending on results. 

9 minutes ago, guttea said:

I actually posted Tousart's attributes above in this thread, just below your first comment.

Nvm, my bad again 😂 He should be good enough. Must be familiarity issue then. And yeah, it’s strange how it works. 

[Sneaky Pete]

6 hours ago, Johnny Ace said:

It's a piece of cake to win the possession battle when you have a much better team than the opposition, that's why Barca smashed teams then, they had a phenomenal team. I'm sure they used to get like 70% in some games but that's pretty difficult to achieve in FM, I won't say impossible but it's close, possession in FM is worked differently to real life 

You're kind of burying the lede here, though. @guttea makes a very reasonable point that IMO points to a huge flaw in the available FB/WB roles in FM21 - there is no fullback role that comes high and wide, dribbles aggressively, but isn't mindlessly looking to cross at the first opportunity. Your best bet at recreating Dani Alves/Jordi Alba is probably a WBs with "Cross Less", but that still won't necessarily get as high and wide as quickly as it should.

IMO "cross more" as a hardcoded instruction needs to be removed from the game entirely. It should remain as a toggleable option, absolutely - sometimes you do just want your winger to ping in 400 crosses for your target man - but it has no business whatsoever being a hardcoded instruction for any role in the game. That just doesn't reflect modern football.

This is particularly problematic because of the recurring issues with wide forwards sitting very narrow in the attacking phase - it's genuinely very difficult to create width like Man City/Liverpool/etc do in real life without it resulting in a crossing fiesta.

Edited September 22, 2021 by Sneaky Pete

[Tsuru]

8 horas atrás, Sneaky Pete disse:

You're kind of burying the lede here, though. @guttea makes a very reasonable point that IMO points to a huge flaw in the available FB/WB roles in FM21 - there is no fullback role that comes high and wide, dribbles aggressively, but isn't mindlessly looking to cross at the first opportunity. Your best bet at recreating Dani Alves/Jordi Alba is probably a WBs with "Cross Less", but that still won't necessarily get as high and wide as quickly as it should.

IMO "cross more" as a hardcoded instruction needs to be removed from the game entirely. It should remain as a toggleable option, absolutely - sometimes you do just want your winger to ping in 400 crosses for your target man - but it has no business whatsoever being a hardcoded instruction for any role in the game. That just doesn't reflect modern football.

This is particularly problematic because of the recurring issues with wide forwards sitting very narrow in the attacking phase - it's genuinely very difficult to create width like Man City/Liverpool/etc do in real life without it resulting in a crossing fiesta.

Maybe a FB-Su with the overlapping/underlapping TI on that side and some individual instructions can do that - I think on a Balanced mentality he would have a Positive individual mentality, for example. I believe that with a good partner on the same flank or even alone the right player could do very well, even though it looks like an improvised solution.

Regarding "natural" game roles, WB-D, IWB-S and FB-At maybe are the nearest to what you are describing. But I agree that a "modern fullback" role is missing on the game, something like a "Complete Fullback".

Edited September 22, 2021 by Tsuru

[pats]

 

On 22/09/2021 at 14:43, Tsuru said:

Maybe a FB-Su with the overlapping/underlapping TI on that side and some individual instructions can do that - I think on a Balanced mentality he would have a Positive individual mentality, for example. I believe that with a good partner on the same flank or even alone the right player could do very well, even though it looks like an improvised solution.

Regarding "natural" game roles, WB-D, IWB-S and FB-At maybe are the nearest to what you are describing. But I agree that a "modern fullback" role is missing on the game, something like a "Complete Fullback".

Agree. Modern full back and modern wide forwards both are missing from the game.

[Tsuru]

8 minutos atrás, pats disse:

Agree. Modern full back and modern wide forwards both are missing from the game.

Yes, and the interesting part for the wide fowards is that we have Wide Midfielders - they are more focused on passes instead of crossings and have more defensive responsibilities, which in my point of view turn them into more modern flank players. You can also add PIs on them to also play offering width and crossing the ball, or the opposite, asking them to cut inside and look for a through ball or a shot on goal. All these options create a jack-of-all trades, something I also consider very interesting and modern.

So the role itself exists, but we don´t see anything similar in AML/AMR positions. And that is one of the reasons that I prefer formations with MR/ML instead of AMR/AML, I feel that I have many more options and more flexibility, besides more defensive cover.

Edited September 24, 2021 by Tsuru

[Haribo1681]

On 22/09/2021 at 01:32, Sneaky Pete said:

You're kind of burying the lede here, though. @guttea makes a very reasonable point that IMO points to a huge flaw in the available FB/WB roles in FM21 - there is no fullback role that comes high and wide, dribbles aggressively, but isn't mindlessly looking to cross at the first opportunity. Your best bet at recreating Dani Alves/Jordi Alba is probably a WBs with "Cross Less", but that still won't necessarily get as high and wide as quickly as it should.

IMO "cross more" as a hardcoded instruction needs to be removed from the game entirely. It should remain as a toggleable option, absolutely - sometimes you do just want your winger to ping in 400 crosses for your target man - but it has no business whatsoever being a hardcoded instruction for any role in the game. That just doesn't reflect modern football.

This is particularly problematic because of the recurring issues with wide forwards sitting very narrow in the attacking phase - it's genuinely very difficult to create width like Man City/Liverpool/etc do in real life without it resulting in a crossing fiesta.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't WBsu only hard coded to 'get further forward' and 'run wide with the ball'? I think the mindless crossing instructions only come into play with attack duties...

Definitely agree that less roles should have 'cross more' hard coded - perhaps only Wat, but even that's stretching it IMO.

[Sneaky Pete]

1 hour ago, Haribo1681 said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't WBsu only hard coded to 'get further forward' and 'run wide with the ball'?

You are correct. The problem isn't WBs' hard-coded instructions, it's that you can't recreate the off-the-ball movement (which you do want) of e.g. a CWBa or WBa without also getting the mindless crossing.

I'd love to be able to recreate a Jordi Alba/Dani Alves-type fullback that absolutely legs it up the pitch like a mob is chasing them and is constantly looking to get to the byline, but currently FM simply will not let me do that without also tying me to the utterly cancerous "cross more" hardcoded instruction.

2 hours ago, Tsuru said:

So the role itself exists, but we don´t see anything similar in AML/AMR positions.

Yes, this has been a gripe of mine for several FM editions. The WM roles are fantastic, but they sit too low in the defensive phase for some pressing systems. Adding more or less exactly the WM role in the AM strata would be huge for the game - if for no other reason than finally giving us an AML/AMR role without "dribble more" that isn't also a weird specialty role like AP or WTM.

Edited September 24, 2021 by Sneaky Pete

[Tsuru]

23 minutos atrás, Sneaky Pete disse:

Yes, this has been a gripe of mine for several FM editions. The WM roles are fantastic, but they sit too low in the defensive phase for some pressing systems. Adding more or less exactly the WM role in the AM strata would be huge for the game - if for no other reason than finally giving us an AML/AMR role without "dribble more" that isn't also a weird specialty role like AP or WTM.

Yes, the AMR/AML roles are too much hardcoded. I would really like to customize them more the same way I do with my WMs, and add dribble more not as a mandatory PI but when necessary and as part of a specific strategy. 

[Haribo1681]

23 minutes ago, Sneaky Pete said:

You are correct. The problem isn't WBs' hard-coded instructions, it's that you can't recreate the off-the-ball movement (which you do want) of e.g. a CWBa or WBa without also getting the mindless crossing.

I'd love to be able to recreate a Jordi Alba/Dani Alves-type fullback that absolutely legs it up the pitch like a mob is chasing them and is constantly looking to get to the byline, but currently FM simply will not let me do that without also tying me to the utterly cancerous "cross more" hardcoded instruction.

Yes, this has been a gripe of mine for several FM editions. The WM roles are fantastic, but they sit too low in the defensive phase for some pressing systems. Adding more or less exactly the WM role in the AM strata would be huge for the game - if for no other reason than finally giving us an AML/AMR role without "dribble more" that isn't also a weird specialty role like AP or WTM.

Agree 100% - I would love to have a full-back that stretches the play by getting high and wide, but doesn't always cross the ball every time they get it. I think CWB is the current nearest to this (theoretically) but the 'roam more' instruction leads to them appearing all over the place IMHO.

[Tsuru]

1 minuto atrás, Haribo1681 disse:

Agree 100% - I would love to have a full-back that stretches the play by getting high and wide, but doesn't always cross the ball every time they get it. I think CWB is the current nearest to this (theoretically) but the 'roam more' instruction leads to them appearing all over the place IMHO.

I already saw people using the IWB-S for this on narrow formations. I believe they can be also used on dual wide men systems like this, too. I believe in a 4-2-3-1 deep they wouldn´t cut inside, for example, due to the DM pair.

Edited September 24, 2021 by Tsuru

[pats]

If AI can handle vanilla MR/L roles, then why can't it handle vanilla AMR/L roles? I just don't understand the thinking behind it. It also seems like with hard-coded instructions like 'cross more' and 'run wider', more attention is given to lower league football then modern football. It frustates me that I can't replicate Pep and Enrique's wide players without compromising my other team and player instructions.

Edited September 24, 2021 by pats