Moon logic in Football Manager

[Outsider23]

I've started a new save. I'm managing Dinamo Dresden in the 3rd Liga and I've managed to take them to the second round of the DFB Pokal where we will face Wolfsburg. Anyway, in the pre match press conference I was asked about my relationship with Wolfsburg's manager, Oliver Glasner. I gave what I believed to be a truthful answer, that I didn't know him, but that I respected him. That didn't go over too well and the journalist who asked the question basically accused me of lying and angrily demanded, in the name of the public, that I tell the truth about my relationship with Glasner. I was stunned, but I didn't know what to do other than say that actually we are good friends even though I've never interacted with the man at all. This answer was accepted, although the local journalists still all hate me.

This, to me, highlights one of the weaknesses of this game. There is this utterly bizarre system of dialogue woven throughout the experience that can only really be learned by trial and error. It doesn't matter that "I don't know him" is a factually true statement, it counts as an evasive response because it is the neutral option. Pretending to be good friends with someone you've never met is a weird anti social thing to do in real life, but I guess in this game it has to be the default option.

 

[FrazT]

There are several parts of this module that don't make a lot of sense.  I am often asked about a "so called war of words" with a manager that I have little or no interaction with before and you don't know if this is just a journalist stirring up trouble or a faulty code. The follow up question stating that "the public want to know" should IMO be removed- what part of "no comment" do you not understand?

[scass]

I've heard about these exchanges and never seen them myself. I have a philosophy of avoiding everything, or stonewalling with negativity. I expect every game to be hard or a banana skin against a minnow, refuse to predict success, deliver everything in a gesture free monotone, and I won't be discussing any transfer stories today, sorry, or ever, when it comes down to it. I have found that saying "it's not me against the other manager, 22 players on the pitch decide it" actually triggers certain players, most notably Gvardiol, the Croatian CB. I'd love to be the darling of the press wit funny stories, touching humanity like an Holloway talking about his daughters, or Cantona-esque fishing analogies. But the score just ain't there...

[scass]

6 hours ago, FrazT said:

There are several parts of this module that don't make a lot of sense.  I am often asked about a "so called war of words" with a manager that I have little or no interaction with before and you don't know if this is just a journalist stirring up trouble or a faulty code. The follow up question stating that "the public want to know" should IMO be removed- what part of "no comment" do you not understand?

Maybe we should have a Walter Smith option - a go-nuclear ten-minute rant which reduces a journalist to a quivering blancmange? 

Edited September 24, 2021 by scass

[Rooneys 32nd minute headers]

1 hour ago, scass said:

Maybe we should have a Walter Smith option - a go-nuclear ten-minute rant which reduces a journey to a quivering blancmange? 

I'd fully welcome sending the assistant just for him to moan that Chick Young "IS talking Sh*te again"

[rusty217]

Maybe the journalist had just heard rumours he's having an affair with another manager and was trying to ascertain if it's you?

Edited September 24, 2021 by rusty217

[forameuss]

On 24/09/2021 at 01:45, FrazT said:

There are several parts of this module that don't make a lot of sense.  I am often asked about a "so called war of words" with a manager that I have little or no interaction with before and you don't know if this is just a journalist stirring up trouble or a faulty code. The follow up question stating that "the public want to know" should IMO be removed- what part of "no comment" do you not understand?

This, absolutely.  It's a shame, because if you do actually want to get into one of these "war of words" situations, you can.  It actually works out quite well.  I had a running battle with England manager Eddie Howe in the media when I was managing Scotland, and it led to him getting sacked after us beating them at the Euros one year.  But for every situation like that, there's a whole lot that make absolutely zero sense and don't really let you build any kind of narrative.

As with so much in the game, it's a startling lack of context in most decisions.  AI in the match engine is not too bad despite obvious issues, but AI outside of the match in the less important areas is sorely lacking.

[Nikopol]

Definitely a part that the game needs to improve on. I think for many football fans following the manangers interactions with the press is one of the major ways to identify with the coach and learn about him, assess whether he's the right man or not (of course thats not as important as the results but still). Part of the fun i have with FM is sometimes lazily daydreaming about how i'd interact with the press, how i'd talk about certain players or circumstances - but sadly the game doesn't really tap into this too much. Last years press conference rework didn't really change anything in regards to how my interactions with the press i unfold. I can appreciate it as foundational work but wish that a deeper reform of the system would follow.

[Johnny Ace]

This stuff does my head in, not only with the press but your own players

Expected to finish 22nd pre season, finished 7th. So we had a fantastic season, I changed to a new system about half way through

End of season meeting was something about the new system. Can't remember what I said something like "We've bedded in the new system, lets crack on with it next season"

Whole team: Negative red - this is completely out of order, we expect to get relegated 

Start of the new season meeting: Sorry maybe I was a little ambitious in our last chat, I expect us to fight bravely in a relegation battle 

Whole team: Negative red - we don't agree, we expect to get relegated 

Start of new season: top after 4 games 

Just seems whatever I ever say in these situations, I either under or over shoot & cheese the whole squad off, same with the press

Take a guy on trial. Reporter chirps up, are you signing this guy? We're just taking a look at the player. "Johnny Ace gives the media the cold shoulder". Erm, no   

 

[Harper]

On 23/09/2021 at 20:45, FrazT said:

There are several parts of this module that don't make a lot of sense.  I am often asked about a "so called war of words" with a manager that I have little or no interaction with before and you don't know if this is just a journalist stirring up trouble or a faulty code. The follow up question stating that "the public want to know" should IMO be removed- what part of "no comment" do you not understand?

I’ve gotten the question about my war of words with so and so. Only problem is my DOF does the pre/post match interviews and my ass man does the tunnel interviews.

 

[enigmatic]

On 24/09/2021 at 01:23, Outsider23 said:

I've started a new save. I'm managing Dinamo Dresden in the 3rd Liga and I've managed to take them to the second round of the DFB Pokal where we will face Wolfsburg. Anyway, in the pre match press conference I was asked about my relationship with Wolfsburg's manager, Oliver Glasner. I gave what I believed to be a truthful answer, that I didn't know him, but that I respected him. That didn't go over too well and the journalist who asked the question basically accused me of lying and angrily demanded, in the name of the public, that I tell the truth about my relationship with Glasner. I was stunned, but I didn't know what to do other than say that actually we are good friends even though I've never interacted with the man at all. This answer was accepted, although the local journalists still all hate me.

This, to me, highlights one of the weaknesses of this game. There is this utterly bizarre system of dialogue woven throughout the experience that can only really be learned by trial and error. It doesn't matter that "I don't know him" is a factually true statement, it counts as an evasive response because it is the neutral option. Pretending to be good friends with someone you've never met is a weird anti social thing to do in real life, but I guess in this game it has to be the default option.

The "logic" such that it is, is that "I don't know him...." is a neutral response, and journalists are sometimes coded to say "the public will expect to hear a proper answer..." and repeat a question in return to neutral responses.

This makes a little bit of sense when a player tries to avoid talking about transfers or chances of winning but obviously no sense with this particular q&a

[Piperita]

20 hours ago, Johnny Ace said:

This stuff does my head in, not only with the press but your own players

[...]

 

Yeah, sometimes players are way, way too underambitious after a period of overperforming, whatever their hidden stats say. Fighting against relegation, whatever it takes? Acceptable for me, even when I know I'll do better than that with some new faces and human advantages. But saying that that is overambitious and we should just be doing our best? What kind of professional has that attitude? It might be hard, we might be underdogs, but we got into the league on merits and should strive to stay there!

Even more ridiculous if you not only got promoted easily weeks before season's end but also play in the continental cup after some miraculous performances in the cup...

[Johnny Ace]

1 hour ago, Piperita said:

Yeah, sometimes players are way, way too underambitious after a period of overperforming, whatever their hidden stats say. Fighting against relegation, whatever it takes? Acceptable for me, even when I know I'll do better than that with some new faces and human advantages. But saying that that is overambitious and we should just be doing our best? What kind of professional has that attitude? It might be hard, we might be underdogs, but we got into the league on merits and should strive to stay there!

Even more ridiculous if you not only got promoted easily weeks before season's end but also play in the continental cup after some miraculous performances in the cup...

Thing is, you have zero idea what you're supposed to say 

Like what I said, I just said kick on with the new tactic, does that mean finish above 7th? I assumed it meant go into the new season with that tactic & get on with it 

Even if relegation favorites, I don't think any manager goes into the team meeting & says "Right, we all screwed next season, we're going down" especially after finishing 7th the season before. Even if I did go in & say that, I'd fully expect them to get upset because that's a huge lack of ambition on my part & I don't want my players going into the season expecting to get relegated.

Just all feels like a lottery & isn't a fun part of the game 

[forameuss]

7 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

Thing is, you have zero idea what you're supposed to say 

Like what I said, I just said kick on with the new tactic, does that mean finish above 7th? I assumed it meant go into the new season with that tactic & get on with it 

Even if relegation favorites, I don't think any manager goes into the team meeting & says "Right, we all screwed next season, we're going down" especially after finishing 7th the season before. Even if I did go in & say that, I'd fully expect them to get upset because that's a huge lack of ambition on my part & I don't want my players going into the season expecting to get relegated.

Just all feels like a lottery & isn't a fun part of the game 

this is a decent point.  If things are logical, then "what we're supposed to say" should be logical too, even if the answer is different for every player.  If it's working properly it should be about you as a manager being able to determine how to deal with each player individually, doing that, and then getting the benefit.  Clearly that's not the case, so are we supposed to think of it as a video game, and there being some "answer" to use?  It wouldn't be an ideal solution, but it would at least be a solution.  

Unfortunately the way it seems to be, it's neither of these things.  It's, like you say, seemingly a lottery, and not even close to fun.  Worse than that, it seems completely pointless, as I've taken to just not talking to anyone as routine.  I'm sure I'm maybe losing, say, 15% that I could make up by doing those bits, but I should be losing more.  The arbitrary nature of it all just makes it seem completely pointless.

[RandomGuy.]

On 24/09/2021 at 01:48, scass said:

Maybe we should have a Walter Smith option - a go-nuclear ten-minute rant which reduces a journalist to a quivering blancmange? 

+1 for a "thump Chick Young with a backhand" option.

[AlexJames]

Slightly O/T but along the same lines, I recently had a very strange/ frustrating interaction with one of my players.

Midway through the transfer window I recieve a good offer for one of my mis-firing strikers, which I accept. I promptly line up a (much better) improvement, but before it goes through, my player sale is confirmed.

Immediately my captain is concerned at the lack of attacking options in the squad, which most of the squad agree with. I tell him to trust me and be patient, which he takes as a promise to improve our attack. Fair enough. By the end of the window I've signed not one but two quality forwards as well as a new first team winger on loan. 

My captain is then "very happy at the quick progress being made to strengthen the attack" or something like that, but the "promise" still has another 6 months to run.

For this whole time, my captain is "unhappy" and wont talk to me. His contract is set to run out at the end of the season, but he wont let me negotiate with him. 

In the meantime, my new players are going great guns and we go surging up the league.

Ultimately my captain leaves on a free, as he wouldn't let me talk to him the entire next 6 months. On top of this, my board and fans consider letting him leave a "poor piece of business". 

All this just because I sold one player literally 2 days before I signed his replacement.

As far as I know there was no way I could've avoided this situation or convinced my captain to stay.

Sometimes these interactions work nicely and add depth to the game, other times they can be a complete minefield.

Edited September 29, 2021 by AlexJames

[Rascanuvols]

The only thing I save-scum in this game are convos with my players, that tells you all you need to know about this system.

I'm most definitely playing Touch this year.

[B3nnet7]

I'm currently playing as FC United of Manchester In the National League, sitting 3rd in the league after coming 9th the year before. 

Anyway, I somehow managed to get to the 3rd round of the FA Cup against Aston Villa away, I know I'm going to lose so I make a point of simply just setting my team up to hit them on the counter and try not to lose by too many. I ended up losing 2-0 which I was very very happy about and I thought my team did incredibly well to only lose by such a small margin to a premier league team. 

Well after the game I am preparing myself to praise my team in the post match press conference but the questions were just utterly ridiculous! 

Basically I got asked how unhappy was I that my team lost such an important game in such a poor manner and that my team showed no real attacking ability and how am I going to bounce back from such a bad defeat, oh and also this player played poorly why did you not sub him off!! 

It's like the game didn't recognise that I had just played a team 5 divisions above me! I should have been getting praised, it was just baffling. 

Luckily in the national league you tend to only get press conferences for big games so you don't have to deal with them too often. 

Edited September 29, 2021 by B3nnet7

[crpcarrot]

On 27/09/2021 at 14:58, Johnny Ace said:

This stuff does my head in, not only with the press but your own players

Expected to finish 22nd pre season, finished 7th. So we had a fantastic season, I changed to a new system about half way through

....

 

won the VNL league and the end of season meeting i said well done to the team and majority of them were angry or offended. i had no idea why. we were expected to be mid table

[Smurf]

I just steer clear of all conversations/player interactions/media

I'm known as media shy. 

But I don''t care for that side of the 'game' - it's like playing with a building that transforms into a robot - what's the fun in playing with a building?

 

 

[autohoratio]

The posts in this thread resonate completely, and I'm someone who enjoys the interactions/press conferences, at least on paper (I prefer having a 10-question press conference over none at all, but it's a struggle when half of them are irrelevant questions about other teams/managers or other such nonsense).

The Gesture System™ did nothing to improve press conferences over the previous Tone System™, especially because most of the time you're limited to just a couple of pre-selected gestures – what's even the point of having them then?

Why can I say So-and-so Manager is my best friend when a journo asks me about him in a presser, but the only way I can talk to that manager is if one of us has a player on loan from the other who isn't getting the agreed amount of playing time? And even then, half of the time that manager just shuts you down saying "I don't have time for this, I'll be going now". Either that question should be removed from the list entirely or an interaction module with other managers should be added.

Another gem produced by the player interactions in FM21 was when I had a player sent off in the first half of a match (I think it was a defender, but I can't recall; IIRC this was back in January so I don't remember every detail) – I needed to make tactical changes so I subbed out one of my wingers to plug the gap. After the game the player was furious and demanded to know why I brought him off when he felt he was playing well. There was no option to tell him that I agreed but that I had to take somebody off to bring on a defender; only options such as "it was my mistake and I apologise" or "I don't think you played well at all, that's why I made the change". Of course, I was only able to select a dialogue option that made him even angrier, and he was unhappy for a few months afterwards.

[RealSmokePL]

Also, if you start unemployed, no badges no experience and you're somehow being interviewed by national media, like imaging walking down the streets of Amsterdam and asking some random guy whether he's interested in becoming the manager of AE ZAKAKIOU, doesn't make much sense if you think about it but for no real reason happens in FM. I get it if you selected some decent past experience, declared interest in a job but if you've done non of that then how the heck does the media know about you? (main character but cmon, let's keep it r–e–a–l–i–s–t–i–c).

 

Also if you've left on contract expiry and you're being asked what went wrong and if it was something to do with board issues, like, what???

 

But other then that, irrelevant questions like you choosing to wear a suit or tracksuit, some random 'war of words' with managers you've never come across of, players acting like butthurt toddlers all the time, mr 'The public wants to hear a proper answer from you', what part of no comment or neutral is hard to understand? especially when I said I am happy with my squad and won't be buying players, or saying that multiple times and then being asked whether there's positions in my team I'm looking to bolster, or random players no-one's ever heard of.

I was asked whether I am pleased with my U19 winning the reserve league, I answered "I'm here to discuss first team questions" (or sum like that) and guess what? the next 3 questions were still about that...  🤬

 

Or my board expecting a top three finish, understandable, we're top 2 in terms of reputation and we've just won the league, our squad may not be the best but definitely good enough for top 3, so I tell that to my players, every one gets mad and offended like I've just called them a slur, when I was just telling them what the board expects (and tbf what I expected) and they're saying I'm to ambitious, what professional would react like that? cmon especially sine that's our literal board objective.

 

I don't expect press conferences or general interactions to be some house of fun but just make them less tedious and idiotic.

[HUNT3R]

On 28/09/2021 at 14:24, Johnny Ace said:

Thing is, you have zero idea what you're supposed to say 

Like what I said, I just said kick on with the new tactic, does that mean finish above 7th? I assumed it meant go into the new season with that tactic & get on with it 

Even if relegation favorites, I don't think any manager goes into the team meeting & says "Right, we all screwed next season, we're going down" especially after finishing 7th the season before. Even if I did go in & say that, I'd fully expect them to get upset because that's a huge lack of ambition on my part & I don't want my players going into the season expecting to get relegated.

Just all feels like a lottery & isn't a fun part of the game 

I understand the logic of the players here. You're a weak team - relegation favourites. You overachieved that season, but you're still that same weak team. Going into the next season (assuming no changes), you're still going to be expected to fight against relegation, surely?

When Leicester won the league, they weren't expected to even get close. The year before, they finished 14th. The year after the win, they finished 12th. When they won the league and they had an end of season meeting, would the manager have said "well done boys, let's do it again", after being 5000-1 to win it in the first place?

I don't know if you recall, but Ranieri played down their chances every opportunity he had. He tried keeping the pressure off the squad and the focus only on the next match, not where they are in the league table.

These things are about managing expectations and controlling the pressure and motivation of the squad. You, as the manager, may well expect to overachieve again next season and that is perfectly fine. Personally, I wouldn't convey that to the team though. How did you overachieve this season? By being underdogs and with that, there's very little expectation and pressure. As you score points, the motivation and morale increases a lot as well, because you're over-achieving so much. Do that again next season. As you have a weaker squad, keep the expectations and pressure on them low. You know that by doing it this season, you over-achieved, so you could likely do it again if you follow the same routine.

There's nothing wrong with having ambition, but you need to remember that the players will know their squad isn't as strong as most of the other teams. They'll be aware of the media etc marking them out as relegation candidates. You know that you can extract more out of them and you know how to do it as well, so like I said, just do that again.

That's not to defend the game as a whole, because there are a few instances where the communication between the different modules in the game isn't good enough, but I don't think this is necessarily one of them. As an example, the scouting/transfer AI may identify an important player to buy and strengthen the team, but once he arrives, he doesn't play much, if at all. We had previous versions where they were almost immediately transfer listed. That's where the scouting/transfer AI module and the Team Selector/Manager AI module failing to work together properly. It's better these days, but should be much better in future.

[Rascanuvols]

24 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

I understand the logic of the players here. You're a weak team - relegation favourites. You overachieved that season, but you're still that same weak team. Going into the next season (assuming no changes), you're still going to be expected to fight against relegation, surely?

When Leicester won the league, they weren't expected to even get close. The year before, they finished 14th. The year after the win, they finished 12th. When they won the league and they had an end of season meeting, would the manager have said "well done boys, let's do it again", after being 5000-1 to win it in the first place?

I don't know if you recall, but Ranieri played down their chances every opportunity he had. He tried keeping the pressure off the squad and the focus only on the next match, not where they are in the league table.

These things are about managing expectations and controlling the pressure and motivation of the squad. You, as the manager, may well expect to overachieve again next season and that is perfectly fine. Personally, I wouldn't convey that to the team though. How did you overachieve this season? By being underdogs and with that, there's very little expectation and pressure. As you score points, the motivation and morale increases a lot as well, because you're over-achieving so much. Do that again next season. As you have a weaker squad, keep the expectations and pressure on them low. You know that by doing it this season, you over-achieved, so you could likely do it again if you follow the same routine.

There's nothing wrong with having ambition, but you need to remember that the players will know their squad isn't as strong as most of the other teams. They'll be aware of the media etc marking them out as relegation candidates. You know that you can extract more out of them and you know how to do it as well, so like I said, just do that again.

That's not to defend the game as a whole, because there are a few instances where the communication between the different modules in the game isn't good enough, but I don't think this is necessarily one of them. As an example, the scouting/transfer AI may identify an important player to buy and strengthen the team, but once he arrives, he doesn't play much, if at all. We had previous versions where they were almost immediately transfer listed. That's where the scouting/transfer AI module and the Team Selector/Manager AI module failing to work together properly. It's better these days, but should be much better in future.

But I don't think that was de point he was trying to make.

Thing is he wasn't even talking about next year finishing position, but about their new tactic's success.

And Ranieri was fired the year after the title. You are right no one would've expected a second win, but of course the expectation was for them to finish higher than 2 years before.

[HUNT3R]

15 minutes ago, Rascanuvols said:

Thing is he wasn't even talking about next year finishing position, but about their new tactic's success.

Same thing. If you're expecting the tactic to be a success, you're expecting a good season. I haven't seen the 'kick on with the new tactic' option during the end of team meeting, so I don't know the exact wording. It's still related to expectations for next season though. It could be that the wording for this option needs to be better/clearer so that there isn't confusion about what exactly it means, like Johnny Ace said.

[Icy]

Sadly it happens too often in press releases. I usually read all the questions and try to use some FM logic when answering, but after the first season, when you have already seen all the questions and the novelty is over, you can just safely chose the second one from the left and you are always fine not even reading the questions or answers. Else I lose fast the immersion when something like that happens or when it's too obvious how to manipulate the press and other managers or your own players to gain advantage and have always a highly motivated team.

Thought I would give it a chance past year with the gestures but it looked just as a new skin over the old system, hope it gets improved.

[Johnny Ace]

2 hours ago, HUNT3R said:

Same thing. If you're expecting the tactic to be a success, you're expecting a good season. I haven't seen the 'kick on with the new tactic' option during the end of team meeting, so I don't know the exact wording. It's still related to expectations for next season though. It could be that the wording for this option needs to be better/clearer so that there isn't confusion about what exactly it means, like Johnny Ace said.

There's loads of different options to tick in these meetings, it was way down on the right hand side, I was just trying to be as neutral as possible, not saying anything about promotion/relegation or so I thought. I just wanted to say"we've done well lads, lets have more of it next season, we've built something here", I certainly didn't expect the "right" option to be, "lets show zero ambition & get relegated next season". We won the league in the end, I didn't expect to win it but I knew we'd be no where near relegation so I'd have never chosen that 

That brought another interesting player interaction. 

One starting centre back comes to me about me ruining his career because I played him as central defender & not a non-nonsense centre back. I certainly don't remember ever promising playing him in the role, I remove all promises from contract negotiations, especially the position ones unless they 100% will play that role

Anyway, my reply was something like "well, you've showed great versatility to the team & have played great"

His response: I hate you & will never speak to you again 

Me: Okay *offers him out on free  

Like, the guy loved me, he just won the league & was about to play proper league football for the first time in his career & he completely fell out me with on the first mention on his promise right at the end of the season because I guess I didn't sit there for 10 minutes & analyse every option I had to talk him round, I thought I gave a perfectly good reason in the first place. I couldn't be bothered trying to bring him back round & have an unhappy player in my starting lineup for 3 months

I just dread any player/team interaction 

Edited September 30, 2021 by Johnny Ace
to be more clear

[enigmatic]

2 hours ago, HUNT3R said:

I understand the logic of the players here. You're a weak team - relegation favourites. You overachieved that season, but you're still that same weak team. Going into the next season (assuming no changes), you're still going to be expected to fight against relegation, surely?

When Leicester won the league, they weren't expected to even get close. The year before, they finished 14th. The year after the win, they finished 12th. When they won the league and they had an end of season meeting, would the manager have said "well done boys, let's do it again", after being 5000-1 to win it in the first place?

I don't know if you recall, but Ranieri played down their chances every opportunity he had. He tried keeping the pressure off the squad and the focus only on the next match, not where they are in the league table.

These things are about managing expectations and controlling the pressure and motivation of the squad. You, as the manager, may well expect to overachieve again next season and that is perfectly fine. Personally, I wouldn't convey that to the team though. How did you overachieve this season? By being underdogs and with that, there's very little expectation and pressure. As you score points, the motivation and morale increases a lot as well, because you're over-achieving so much. Do that again next season. As you have a weaker squad, keep the expectations and pressure on them low. You know that by doing it this season, you over-achieved, so you could likely do it again if you follow the same routine.

There's nothing wrong with having ambition, but you need to remember that the players will know their squad isn't as strong as most of the other teams. They'll be aware of the media etc marking them out as relegation candidates. You know that you can extract more out of them and you know how to do it as well, so like I said, just do that again

Think there's a happy medium FM hasn't found. I don't imagine Ranieri demanded a followup title challenge, but also can't imagine Ranieri's title winning squad saying "no boss, that's unreasonable, we're not strong enough" if he said they can finish mid table next season and still being upset if he downgraded expectations to steering clear of a relegation battle

[HUNT3R]

Just now, enigmatic said:

Think there's a happy medium FM hasn't found. I don't imagine Ranieri demanded a followup title challenge, but also can't imagine Ranieri's title winning squad saying "no boss, that's unreasonable, we're not strong enough" if he said they can finish mid table next season and still being upset if he downgraded expectations to steering clear of a relegation battle

Considering they were (lower) mid-table the year before, they would have been fine with the next season's expectations of being mid-table again. They were seen as a mid-table team. In Johnny Ace's case, they're seen as a relegation candidate, so telling the team that they can really kick on next season, after finishing 7th, is far too ambitious.

IMO, I don't see the issue with the AI logic in this case. The issue for me is rather the ambiguity of what it is you're trying to say to the team. The issue is that the game reduces the entire talk down to a single (in most cases, short) sentence. I understand that it's better than having an essay to read though. There should be some middle ground, like grouping the talks more clearly to indicate you're trying to be more ambitious or easing the pressure/expectation etc, perhaps? Or the responses should be a bit more detailed to explain that, while you over-achieved, it shouldn't be an expectation to finish 7th (or even kick on from there) because the squad isn't good enough.

I don't like vagueness in the game, where there shouldn't be. Not in meetings like this - it should be clear to you what it is you're saying to the team and the team should be clear in their reply. It's the same with some promises - it's not clear what you're promising or what's needed to fulfill some promises.

 

[HUNT3R]

1 hour ago, Johnny Ace said:

There's loads of different options to tick in these meetings, it was way down on the right hand side, I was just trying to be as neutral as possible, not saying anything about promotion/relegation or so I thought. I just wanted to say"we've done well lads, lets have more of it next season, we've built something here", I certainly didn't expect the "right" option to be, "lets show zero ambition & get relegated next season". We won the league, I didn't expect to win it but I knew we'd be no where near relegation so I'd have never chosen that 

Unless I missed something, you haven't won the league? The post I quoted mentioned you finishing 7th where you were predicted 22nd. "Lets have more of it next season, we've built something here" is basically saying you want the same again. With a team that's not expected anywhere near 7th.

The problem here is that you're placing your expectations far above what's deemed to be realistic. You were a team predicted 22nd, so you have a squad that's expecting to be around there again because that's their ability compared to other teams. You over-achieved, meaning you shouldn't expect to be there again. It doesn't mean you can't finish that high again, but placing that expectation on the team is unrealistic. Perhaps, as @enigmatic said, there's some middle ground to be found, where a squad's expectations could be raised a bit if they over-achieved the previous season. So, instead of expecting 22nd, it could rather be something like 16-19th, perhaps. Even if they're a poor squad, the fact that they did finish 7th, shows that it's possible to realistically expect to finish a bit higher than the expected 22nd.

[enigmatic]

2 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

Considering they were (lower) mid-table the year before, they would have been fine with the next season's expectations of being mid-table again. They were seen as a mid-table team. In Johnny Ace's case, they're seen as a relegation candidate, so telling the team that they can really kick on next season, after finishing 7th, is far too ambitious.

IMO, I don't see the issue with the AI logic in this case. The issue for me is rather the ambiguity of what it is you're trying to say to the team. The issue is that the game reduces the entire talk down to a single (in most cases, short) sentence. I understand that it's better than having an essay to read though. There should be some middle ground, like grouping the talks more clearly to indicate you're trying to be more ambitious or easing the pressure/expectation etc, perhaps? Or the responses should be a bit more detailed to explain that, while you over-achieved, it shouldn't be an expectation to finish 7th (or even kick on from there) because the squad isn't good enough.

I don't like vagueness in the game, where there shouldn't be. Not in meetings like this - it should be clear to you what it is you're saying to the team and the team should be clear in their reply. It's the same with some promises - it's not clear what you're promising or what's needed to fulfill some promises.

 

I think the main bit that irritates me about this chat is it seems to be entirely based on media prediction and ignores the surrounding context. Follow the media prediction (even if you think it's stupid) and your team will be overjoyed, even if it's basically telling them they're going down after they easily avoided the drop the season before. Tell the team they should be aiming a bit higher than the media prediction (because they finished a lot higher last season, or because that's what the board actually expect of you, or because the difference between you and the stronger teams really isn't that big anyway) like many managers do and it's pretty much guaranteed that they'll be upset. Think like someone who knows how the game logic works and it's easy. Think like a manager and it'll backfire...

And yeah, agree on promises too (especially since there's no followup like IRL to say "I was going to give youth a chance, but since you senior players are playing so well..." or "sure these new signings might not be bigger names than the rest of the squad, but they fix our weaknesses which is what I was looking to do")

[Johnny Ace]

29 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

Unless I missed something, you haven't won the league? The post I quoted mentioned you finishing 7th where you were predicted 22nd. "Lets have more of it next season, we've built something here" is basically saying you want the same again. With a team that's not expected anywhere near 7th.

The problem here is that you're placing your expectations far above what's deemed to be realistic. You were a team predicted 22nd, so you have a squad that's expecting to be around there again because that's their ability compared to other teams. You over-achieved, meaning you shouldn't expect to be there again. It doesn't mean you can't finish that high again, but placing that expectation on the team is unrealistic. Perhaps, as @enigmatic said, there's some middle ground to be found, where a squad's expectations could be raised a bit if they over-achieved the previous season. So, instead of expecting 22nd, it could rather be something like 16-19th, perhaps. Even if they're a poor squad, the fact that they did finish 7th, shows that it's possible to realistically expect to finish a bit higher than the expected 22nd.

That was last season, the following season (which I finished last night)I won the league. Yes, my team are terrible & I misunderstood my answer, but even then, if I said anything else barring "we're getting relegated", which I knew wasn't true, the team would be miffed.   

Again, I cocked up my end of that season meeting too saying something "We'll strengthen & do well to stay clear of the relegation battle" which is 100% what I think will happen but again, I cheesed the squad off. I pretty much said what the board expect of me  

This happens more or less right after your last game too, so you have transfers planned, so at that point, I know half the players won't be here next season & I'll be improving the squad. So on paper, right at that point, player for player we're in trouble but we've overachieved for 11 seasons straight, it's not right I tell my team, we're going down 

Once Brentford got promoted last season, I don't think for one second Thomas Frank told his team they were getting relegated. I don't think Patrick Viera walked into Palace & said "right fellas, we're going down" just because the media had them as favorites to go down. It just feels wrong having to give negative answers to my team just so morale doesn't plummet or I ruin the good relations I've built when I know full well I'm lying. We played the first game in League 2 last night & won, so we're not going be to stuck to the bottom of the league all season either so I'd never tell my team they were

You're right, they are a load of options to pick with the relegation options, it's like a minefield. I'd rather the ass man just told me what to say so I can get it over & done without annoying me & team    

Edited September 30, 2021 by Johnny Ace

[Outsider23]

Well, it happened to me again. I gave what I thought was a vague and noncommittal answer to a journalist's question, only for the game to inform me that I had promised one of my players more playing time. It was an annoying outcome that exacerbated an already very awkward situation. I'm managing Dynamo Dresden and for some reason they start with two "first choice goalkeepers." I made my choice and promised to sell the other guy for the good of his career. The problem is that I couldn't sell him for a reasonable price and I was afraid of pissing of the board if I sold him for a ham sandwich. Now, ever since I made that promise, he has been a bit of a ticking time bomb.

I used to think that the problem is that I don't read the answers carefully enough, because there are so many goddamn questions to answer and they come at you so fast, but now I think  that I should pay less attention to the answers. The words don't matter all there is is from left to right:

strong positive - positive - neutral/evasive - negative - strong negative

Pay no attention to the words "We're continuing discussions that we hope will have a positive outcome" the only thing that matters is that it's a "positive" response.

As soon as I master the art of not thinking like a human I will be unstoppable. 

[autohoratio]

On 30/09/2021 at 11:28, HUNT3R said:

so telling the team that they can really kick on next season, after finishing 7th, is far too ambitious.

I don't agree. Would Wilder at Sheffield United have said to his team after finishing 9th the first year back in the PL that he thinks that they'll finish dead last? Of course, that dreaded second-season-syndrome actually did happen, but the media expectation going into the season was that despite their players' limitations, that they would be better than the sum of their parts and still manage a lower-mid-table finish – very few pundits predicted that they'd finish stone dead last. I really don't see how it's unrealistic to tell your squad that you think that you can keep the positive momentum going. Sheffield United aren't the only example of course; Burnley consolidated their position in mid-table on a small budget after regaining promotion and in fact went on to improve to 7th in their second season. The media's "power rankings" of teams in real life is far more reactionary than in the game, so unless a club loses their managerial genius to replace him with a relegation-firefighting journeyman or lose their star players, naturally they'll be expected to finish somewhere close to the previous campaign's position.

[krispig]

Yeah, I think social interaction is the weakest part of the game. So repetitive, unlogic and contradictive.

Players getting mad at me saying I'm way too ambitious after saying we should aim to avoid relegation after just finishing 2nd place. The media asking me if I would prefer my decent Allsvenskan defender over Sergio Ramos.

Rather than adding realism and immersion to the game it takes you out of it. Reworking social interaction feels like a relatively easy way to improve the game enormously.

[FrazT]

My all time favourite press conference was in FM 19 when I took my team to the CL final for the first time in their history.  Sitting in front of a host of international journalists and after the usual bland questions about the game and my opponents I was then asked how pleased was I that my 6th choice 18 year old GK,( who was on loan 2 divisions down, and had his contract renewed by the youth team manager) had signed a new deal?.  I had to pause the press conference, walk away from the microphone, leave the stage and go and ask my assistant as to who they were talking about as his name meant nothing to me.  This is relevant to the CL final??

[BristolCity1992]

Can you skip the end of season meeting? I just tap anything now as it seems wildly out of sync. Also avoid promises as much as possible, but even if I break them I just ignore it and they are usually happy within a few months at most. 

I really love this year's game after many years out but this area hasn't improved sadly. 

[Outsider23]

10 minutes ago, BristolCity1992 said:

Can you skip the end of season meeting? I just tap anything now as it seems wildly out of sync. Also avoid promises as much as possible, but even if I break them I just ignore it and they are usually happy within a few months at most. 

I really love this year's game after many years out but this area hasn't improved sadly. 

Honestly, I sometimes save scum them because they are so bizarre. I don't save scum any other aspect of this game anymore, but I just really, really don't like it when my players fly into a rage when I say "we'll give a good account of ourselves in the cup." When I actually figure out how it works I'll stop scumming it, but that requires a lot of trial and error I think.

[HUNT3R]

19 hours ago, autohoratio said:

I don't agree. Would Wilder at Sheffield United have said to his team after finishing 9th the first year back in the PL that he thinks that they'll finish dead last? Of course, that dreaded second-season-syndrome actually did happen, but the media expectation going into the season was that despite their players' limitations, that they would be better than the sum of their parts and still manage a lower-mid-table finish – very few pundits predicted that they'd finish stone dead last. I really don't see how it's unrealistic to tell your squad that you think that you can keep the positive momentum going. Sheffield United aren't the only example of course; Burnley consolidated their position in mid-table on a small budget after regaining promotion and in fact went on to improve to 7th in their second season. The media's "power rankings" of teams in real life is far more reactionary than in the game, so unless a club loses their managerial genius to replace him with a relegation-firefighting journeyman or lose their star players, naturally they'll be expected to finish somewhere close to the previous campaign's position.

I think you're missing what I said here or at the very least, exaggerating my points. I never said to tell them team they'll finish "dead last". I really don't know where you got that from. We actually seem to agree.

The part you quoted was me mentioning the manager telling his 22nd predicted team who finished 7th, that they'll kick on next season. So he's telling them, "We'll continue to do this well." when it's highly unrealistic. Yes, of course, the expectation is to do better than 22nd, but the expectation isn't (and shouldn't be) near 7th. 

Like I said, we agree :

Quote

 

Unless I missed something, you haven't won the league? The post I quoted mentioned you finishing 7th where you were predicted 22nd. "Lets have more of it next season, we've built something here" is basically saying you want the same again. With a team that's not expected anywhere near 7th.

The problem here is that you're placing your expectations far above what's deemed to be realistic. You were a team predicted 22nd, so you have a squad that's expecting to be around there again because that's their ability compared to other teams. You over-achieved, meaning you shouldn't expect to be there again. It doesn't mean you can't finish that high again, but placing that expectation on the team is unrealistic. Perhaps, as @enigmatic said, there's some middle ground to be found, where a squad's expectations could be raised a bit if they over-achieved the previous season. So, instead of expecting 22nd, it could rather be something like 16-19th, perhaps. Even if they're a poor squad, the fact that they did finish 7th, shows that it's possible to realistically expect to finish a bit higher than the expected 22nd.

 

 

[Johnny Ace]

This is driving me nuts & didn't want to start a new thread for it but it's FM AI manager moon logic

This is the 3rd season I've had this centre back from Norwich on loan. He's our best defender, I only ever play CD(D), the first 2 seasons he was great. This third season, the Norwich manager wanted him to play the central defender role, no problem. Like I say, he's our best CD so he's plays every game he's fit

Every two weeks the Norwich manager comes to me moaning that he's not being played as a central defender. I say he is & he disagrees saying he's not playing enough as a central defender.  I can't do no more but it continues

A week later I get a message from the player saying he's happy about being played as a central defender

Then rinse & repeat 

It's really annoying because it's ridiculous, nothing's changed over the last 3 seasons & he's threatening not to loan us any players in the future

 

 

 

Two weeks later....

The same day, just nonsense

17th March, two weeks later

Edited October 6, 2021 by Johnny Ace

[RealSmokePL]

Also wanted to add this:

With promotion already secured and 10 points ahead of the 2nd team, I am being asked whether I will rest players ahead of the upcoming cup semi final, why would I do that, for what reason?