Football Manager 2022 Live Stream - 15th October 7pm BST

[Britrock]

3 minutes ago, davehanson said:

And, it is not realistic. 

In 2018-2019 there were an average of 10.3 corners per game in the Premier League (I don't have stats for the Championship or I would have compared like for like). Teams scored in 3.7% of these corners - or in other words they scored a third of a goal per game. 

So to register 3 goals from corners should take an average of 10 games.

Hopefully they address this for the full release. 

Could it just be that you're trying to extrapolate from a small sample size? There's no reason why 3 goals shouldn't be scored from corners in the games they showed. It's entirely possible that if they'd continued playing the average would have fallen back in line after a while, we just didn't see enough games

[davehanson]

It could be, you are correct.

But what else do we have to judge anything on? I criticised the teaser trailer, got told to wait until the blogs as it was only a teaser. Blogs were not, IMO, much help - they didn't give that much away. Then the live stream made it seem just as bad.

If they have made these improvements in trigger points, in making sure that gegenpress isn't just plug and play - then why use gegenpress? Why not showcase another way of playing? It just doesn't make sense to me to show something that was overpowered in FM21 - and show it to be overpowered again. 

[DarJ]

10 minutes ago, davehanson said:

And, it is not realistic. 

In 2018-2019 there were an average of 10.3 corners per game in the Premier League (I don't have stats for the Championship or I would have compared like for like). Teams scored in 3.7% of these corners - or in other words they scored a third of a goal per game. 

So to register 3 goals from corners should take an average of 10 games.

Hopefully they address this for the full release. 

The funny thing about this is that if I'm to dress the numbers you are quoting might be very similar to the numbers we already have in fm21 (haven't looked at it yet so don't quote me on that) bet people still complained about how crosses were getting blocked by the defenders.

[davehanson]

1 minute ago, DarJ said:

The funny thing about this is that if I'm to dress the numbers you are quoting might be very similar to the numbers we already have in fm21 (haven't looked at it yet so don't quote me on that) bet people still complained about how crosses were getting blocked by the defenders.

I'm not dressing up any numbers. I think crosses are perfectly find the way they are now. Corners are different though.

[DarJ]

Just now, davehanson said:

I'm not dressing up any numbers. I think crosses are perfectly find the way they are now. Corners are different though.

Oh sorry I read that wrong. For some reason I read "crosses" instead of "corners". I agree with go though , the number of goals scored from corners was worrying but on the plus side they were crosses scored not conceded but I have faith they will look into it for full release maybe not for beta

[FedAt]

1 час назад, CARRERA сказал:

I don’t think that’s the case, they had above 85% (90% even at some time) pass competition rate even at „slightly more direct passing“. The median of a championship side is around 70% IRL and the better teams around 80%.

So either the stats and how they are calculated are broken or the stamina/ inaccuracy model is ever so slightly that it doesn’t have any real effect. And just from visuals it’s the latter one. 

yeah, just look at last fixtures of Championship - very few team had pass accuracy percentage above 80%, and in their stream (I watched on one of the youtube channels, so might be wrong, but) both teams in 2 or 3 matches had more then 80% (in one of the match I think 84 and 87) passing accuracy, and I have suspicions that in lower leagues in FM numbers will be the same.

That's why I'm not excited about data hub at all - that's just representation of data you couldn't change or influence by your tactic or level of your players - because if championship teams have similar passing level as man city, then what's the point of all that stat.

[kiwityke1983]

50 minutes ago, Britrock said:

Could it just be that you're trying to extrapolate from a small sample size? There's no reason why 3 goals shouldn't be scored from corners in the games they showed. It's entirely possible that if they'd continued playing the average would have fallen back in line after a while, we just didn't see enough games

At one point 8 of the 10 goals came directly or indirectly from corners though by my count in the first few games they showed.

[Rashidi]

1 hour ago, davehanson said:

It could be, you are correct.

But what else do we have to judge anything on? I criticised the teaser trailer, got told to wait until the blogs as it was only a teaser. Blogs were not, IMO, much help - they didn't give that much away. Then the live stream made it seem just as bad.

If they have made these improvements in trigger points, in making sure that gegenpress isn't just plug and play - then why use gegenpress? Why not showcase another way of playing? It just doesn't make sense to me to show something that was overpowered in FM21 - and show it to be overpowered again. 

To be fair they managed Sheff United, who aren't exactly a struggling team in the championship. They should be considered one of the favourites to finish in promotion spots. Generally better teams will try and impose themselves so it would make more sense to me that they press aggressively. Is it overpowered? Its still too early to say. There were several points they were making throughout the stream of which one stood out, they had depth. If a team has depth and has the players to rotate you could use gegenpressing for the majority of a game. However to do that 3 games on the trot in the championship where matches come thick and fast would be almost impossible. Plus I can't quite recall whether they were into the winter period either, that also factors in.

Even from watching that I was asking myself why some of the players weren't exhausted at the end of the first half? I do think that at this point in time, SI haven't finalised everything yet, and may well feel that players still have a bit in their tank for sprint capacity. They could adjust it before release.

Even if they adjusted the severity of the sprint model, I think there will always be ways to get around it. You could create a custom shout and use it with 20 minutes to go or whenever to reduce the intensity of your tactic, and then switch gegen pressing on for bursts. Or you could just bring on players to take over. Not every single position will feel the effect of gegenpressing and it will depend on the tactic as well. So plug and play tactics won't be dead. People will just need more depth and know which areas need strengthening. A 4312 gegen pressing tactic will simply have 4 equally good wingbacks.

[FedAt]

7 минут назад, Rashidi сказал:

Its still too early to say

I've seen this message so many times starting from first video, and now we have around one week before beta and around three weeks before release, simple question - when will it be not early, on the 8th of November?

[davehanson]

24 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

To be fair they managed Sheff United, who aren't exactly a struggling team in the championship. They should be considered one of the favourites to finish in promotion spots. Generally better teams will try and impose themselves so it would make more sense to me that they press aggressively. Is it overpowered? Its still too early to say. There were several points they were making throughout the stream of which one stood out, they had depth. If a team has depth and has the players to rotate you could use gegenpressing for the majority of a game. However to do that 3 games on the trot in the championship where matches come thick and fast would be almost impossible. Plus I can't quite recall whether they were into the winter period either, that also factors in.

Even from watching that I was asking myself why some of the players weren't exhausted at the end of the first half? I do think that at this point in time, SI haven't finalised everything yet, and may well feel that players still have a bit in their tank for sprint capacity. They could adjust it before release.

Even if they adjusted the severity of the sprint model, I think there will always be ways to get around it. You could create a custom shout and use it with 20 minutes to go or whenever to reduce the intensity of your tactic, and then switch gegen pressing on for bursts. Or you could just bring on players to take over. Not every single position will feel the effect of gegenpressing and it will depend on the tactic as well. So plug and play tactics won't be dead. People will just need more depth and know which areas need strengthening. A 4312 gegen pressing tactic will simply have 4 equally good wingbacks.

This is another point though, it feels kind of 'scripted' in that SI have told them who to play as and what system to play. Maybe I am being suspicious, but why play as the best team in the Championship? If you want to showcase something that you say you have improved on then chose, I don't know, someone like Forest. A decent side but not the best. 

Show another way of playing. Show the trigger points you have spoken about. Show us something other than Gengenpress.

[plcarlos]

47 minutes ago, FedAt said:

I've seen this message so many times starting from first video, and now we have around one week before beta and around three weeks before release, simple question - when will it be not early, on the 8th of November?

When there is a significantly bigger sample size of matches, squads, and players testing it. Not just a date.

[JordanMilly]

42 minutes ago, davehanson said:

why play as the best team in the Championship?

Because Sheffield United are one of the first teams Brits think of when it comes to wide over/underlapping centre backs.

[Steve1977beyond]

I hate to be negative as I've been an avid fan since the very first one on the Amiga and I truly appreciate everything the team's doing, but that match day interface is just...not great. The best thing SI should do is hire Michael Murray as every year it seems he has to fix the damn thing so you can see the important stuff like your rating and your teams rating in the center of the screen, two valuable pieces of info so you can alter and adapt as necessary.

 

[WelshMourinho]

Honestly why was gegenpressing even added in the first place without considering the effect stamina would have? Surely the biggest drawback of that system is having the fitness to do it, but it appears that hasn't been a requirement at all. Like it's almost fifa esque, just get really fast players who can close down quickly and you're sorted, and that's not difficult at all one the superhuman regens come through.

 

[Platinum]

17 hours ago, michaeltmurrayuk said:

If it's the same as last year then the Touchline Tablet can be scaled down by dragging it.

Yep that is true but if I remember correctly it can only be scaled down to a certain size which wasn't that small and meant it was still often transparent?

The transparency is odd as it defeats the purpose of being able to open the tablet.

[phnompenhandy]

1 hour ago, davehanson said:

This is another point though, it feels kind of 'scripted' in that SI have told them who to play as and what system to play. Maybe I am being suspicious, but why play as the best team in the Championship? If you want to showcase something that you say you have improved on then chose, I don't know, someone like Forest. A decent side but not the best. 

Show another way of playing. Show the trigger points you have spoken about. Show us something other than Gengenpress.

To me, SI have gone way overboard with wide centre backs. We were all wowed by the Blades introducing the Premier League and global TV audiences for one glorious season. It didn't work due to a player being injured in the second season, and it's not that big a thing anymore. But SI have gone overboard with it, selling it as one of the biggest new features, and interviewing the manager who's responsible for that year of glory. They're focusing on Sheff United not because they're a strong Championship side, but to showboat the new position.

As for gegenpressing, I'm a lower league manager using fan-created files with leagues going into the amateur game. It did dismay me that I could use gegenpressing with amateur teams with players having stamina attributes of 5 or less. I'm very pleased to see that players will get tired and make mistakes when they're not suited for that tactic - but I would like to see evidence that they really do tire. I'm not seeing enough of that yet.

Edited October 17, 2021 by phnompenhandy

[Platinum]

3 hours ago, FedAt said:

yeah, just look at last fixtures of Championship - very few team had pass accuracy percentage above 80%, and in their stream (I watched on one of the youtube channels, so might be wrong, but) both teams in 2 or 3 matches had more then 80% (in one of the match I think 84 and 87) passing accuracy, and I have suspicions that in lower leagues in FM numbers will be the same.

That's why I'm not excited about data hub at all - that's just representation of data you couldn't change or influence by your tactic or level of your players - because if championship teams have similar passing level as man city, then what's the point of all that stat.

I dont think the defeats the purpose of the datahub, as long as the stats are consistent for the FM world then the data hub is useful.

[Platinum]

3 hours ago, davehanson said:

It could be, you are correct.

But what else do we have to judge anything on? I criticised the teaser trailer, got told to wait until the blogs as it was only a teaser. Blogs were not, IMO, much help - they didn't give that much away. Then the live stream made it seem just as bad.

If they have made these improvements in trigger points, in making sure that gegenpress isn't just plug and play - then why use gegenpress? Why not showcase another way of playing? It just doesn't make sense to me to show something that was overpowered in FM21 - and show it to be overpowered again. 

They did gegen pressing as people the in Twitch chat asked them to show us how gegen pressing has changed.

[Peter 04]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb CARRERA:

I don’t think that’s the case, they had above 85% (90% even at some time) pass competition rate even at „slightly more direct passing“. The median of a championship side is around 70% IRL and the better teams around 80%.

So either the stats and how they are calculated are broken or the stamina/ inaccuracy model is ever so slightly that it doesn’t have any real effect. And just from visuals it’s the latter one. 

I think that is a good point - and I'd like to add that it is connected to the observation that teams don't use counter tactics that often in FM. In real life, the numbers for pass completion for non-top teams is lower not because they are worse at playing the sport but because they usually try to break quickly resulting in a lot of high risk forward passes that naturally are not successful very often. I do think that this could be tweaked, though. Increasing the tendency of outsider clubs to counter would also punish gegenpress tactics more. (Maybe it is already in the game and we just haven't seen it yet..)

Edited October 17, 2021 by Peter 04

[CARRERA]

1 hour ago, Peter 04 said:

In real life, the numbers for pass completion for non-top teams is lower not because they are worse at playing the sport but because they usually try to break quickly resulting in a lot of high risk forward passes that naturally are not successful very often.

I totally agree to your post but just want to add, that they've played with "(slightly) more direct passing" (which equals high risk forward passes) and finished that game with 84% pass completition which equals a top 5 PL team last season.

The second game was finished with the same tactic but with 89% pass completition. So i think its not only related to the AI for using wrong or too cautious tactics. this seems to be a general problem within the ME. (which they said was addressed by the new stamina calculations)

Edited October 17, 2021 by CARRERA

[Obaaa]

Massively underwhelmed watching that back.

With some of the issues and bugs in FM21 I didn't play it as much as previous editions anyway so this one was really going to have to be a step up to warrant a purchase. I think it'll be a year out for me.

[Mars_Blackmon]

53 minutes ago, CARRERA said:

I totally agree to your post but just want to add, that they've played with "(slightly) more direct passing" (which equals high risk forward passes) and finished that game with 84% pass completition which equals a top 5 PL team last season.

The second game was finished with the same tactic but with 89% pass completition. So i think its not only related to the AI for using wrong or too cautious tactics. this seems to be a general problem within the ME. (which they said was addressed by the new stamina calculations)

Yes, stamina and inaccuracies are things I’m going to be looking out for in the beta because those tweaks weren’t presented in that video…

 

I get it if they do not want to go full realism on these things (injuries only 80% smh) but it’s a point where it’s time to give other users the tools to tweak settings to their liking. I’m tired of the gaslighting. Stamina for gegenpress was suppose to be fixed last year…

[Platinum]

54 minutes ago, Mars_Blackmon said:

Yes, stamina and inaccuracies are things I’m going to be looking out for in the beta because those tweaks weren’t presented in that video…

 

I get it if they do not want to go full realism on these things (injuries only 80% smh) but it’s a point where it’s time to give other users the tools to tweak settings to their liking. I’m tired of the gaslighting. Stamina for gegenpress was suppose to be fixed last year…

If injuries are at 80% then it should be an option either that you tick at the beginning at the game similar to attribute masking or changeable in the editor (majesticeternity has a great work around but it's slightly different to injury occurence I think, pls correct me if I'm wrong).

One thing though, i was asking Neil Brock about the injury occurence in the forums and I wasnt sure if he was suggesting they are in line with real life now.

Edited October 17, 2021 by Platinum

[Johnny Ace]

2 hours ago, CARRERA said:

I totally agree to your post but just want to add, that they've played with "(slightly) more direct passing" (which equals high risk forward passes) and finished that game with 84% pass completition which equals a top 5 PL team last season.

The second game was finished with the same tactic but with 89% pass completition. So i think its not only related to the AI for using wrong or too cautious tactics. this seems to be a general problem within the ME. (which they said was addressed by the new stamina calculations)

The pass completion & possession stats are one of the main immersion breakers for me. Every year we get people wanting to replicate Pep style tactics & one of the main points of frustration is them wanting Pep style % possession numbers which just isn't that achievable in FM without having to use the defensive mentalities. High pass completion percentages by weaker teams are just unrealistic, you can see them string together passes with ease which shouldn't be a thing looking at their attributes. See yesterday, Liverpool beating Watford 5-0, Liverpool had 76% possession & Watford completed 65% of their passes, this is something FM doesn't simulate well 

[janrzm]

If the stats don't mirror those of real life it totally undermines and completely negates the importance of the Data Hub as a feature.

I want to see possession stats and pass accuracy reflect those of the relevant leagues and the quality of player. The number of corners per game and  goals scored from corners, exactly the same. I pointed out earlier in the thread that the scatter graph seemed to show one player averaging 22 crosses per 90.......when I believe the average is probably more like 18 total per game.

Its a legitimate concern at this point. 

Edited October 17, 2021 by janrzm

[davehanson]

6 hours ago, JordanMillward_1 said:

Because Sheffield United are one of the first teams Brits think of when it comes to wide over/underlapping centre backs.

And there are plenty of other teams in the Championship that could deploy a 3 centre half system.

Did anyone, honestly, see anything of the supposed reducing of gegenpress effectiveness or indeed these 'trigger' points?

[Rashidi]

30 minutes ago, janrzm said:

If the stats don't mirror those of real life it totally undermines and completely negates the importance of the Data Hub as a feature.

I want to see possession stats and pass accuracy reflect those of the relevant leagues and the quality of player. The number of corners per game and  goals scored from corners, exactly the same. I pointed out earlier in the thread that the scatter graph seemed to show one player averaging 22 crosses per 90.......when I believe the average is probably more like 18 total per game.

Its a legitimate concern at this point. 

Which is why I for one have never called or accepted the fact that Football Manager simulates football realistically. Its at its core a game, that tries to simulate the job of a football manager by immersing him in an experience that tries to be as realistic as possible.

Whenever SI say realistic numbers I cringe, because in order for one to simulate the results first you have to simulate the movement on and off the ball perfectly. We need to get the rotating fluid diamonds of Atalanta, or the interchanging roles and positional play of City, and the various intricate zonal marking styles of different teams or even the strict man marking of Leeds. I stopped thinking of realistic simulated results a long time ago. I know they will try and get the numbers close to reality, they have to cos they marketed the game that way. So they will need to run loads of internal tests and then look back at all the numbers but at the end of the day, to get that kind of realism, we all need to run around with own quantum computers in our house playing the game. That ain't happening.  So I have learnt to live with whatever small replication I can achieve in the game. To be honest I even cringe at myself when I say I am replicating a formation. Its not possible to do anything with a 100% accuracy. SI does it best with the technology we all have to play with and hopefully one day they stop saying this simulates real football, but simulates the life of a football manager. 

[Mars_Blackmon]

Or they just balance the game in a way that it also pleases the casual gamer.

I’m not buying the need for an IBM computer to tweak passing inaccuracies or AI squad building 

[CARRERA]

For me at least its not a thing about having the stats right and being fully equal to real life football. (eventhough i would appreciate that) I understand that its a game and that it needs to be accessible for everyone. However, what i simply cannot accept is calling out headline / big features that will change how the game is played and then showcasing a state of the game that is not even close to that.

There might be, and im pretty sure there will be, changes to the ME and how it plays out until the final ME upgrade like its every year. But for now im pretty underwhelmed for that particular feature and how it translates into the ME.

[janrzm]

1 hour ago, Rashidi said:

Which is why I for one have never called or accepted the fact that Football Manager simulates football realistically. Its at its core a game, that tries to simulate the job of a football manager by immersing him in an experience that tries to be as realistic as possible.

Whenever SI say realistic numbers I cringe, because in order for one to simulate the results first you have to simulate the movement on and off the ball perfectly. We need to get the rotating fluid diamonds of Atalanta, or the interchanging roles and positional play of City, and the various intricate zonal marking styles of different teams or even the strict man marking of Leeds. I stopped thinking of realistic simulated results a long time ago. I know they will try and get the numbers close to reality, they have to cos they marketed the game that way. So they will need to run loads of internal tests and then look back at all the numbers but at the end of the day, to get that kind of realism, we all need to run around with own quantum computers in our house playing the game. That ain't happening.  So I have learnt to live with whatever small replication I can achieve in the game. To be honest I even cringe at myself when I say I am replicating a formation. Its not possible to do anything with a 100% accuracy. SI does it best with the technology we all have to play with and hopefully one day they stop saying this simulates real football, but simulates the life of a football manager. 

I'm paraphrasing but I recall Miles being very dismissive of someone's suggestion of an improvement to the game on Twitter with the retort that "we are creating a football simulation and that is unrealistic". I didn't agree with the tone of his response but I do recall thinking if that stance is at the core of the developers mission then we have a lot of work to do if we're going to get anywhere near simulating "real" football. That being said, I need that to be the objective because if it isn't then I'm probably not interested in playing going forward.

I can see a direct correlation between SI's attempts to replicate "real football" and the trajectory of my personal dissatisfaction with elements of the game. It probably started with the introduction of the 3D. Likewise, as football has become more data driven, statistics more accessible, tactical innovations more refined and the average football fans understanding of tactics in general has increased, the holes in the ME and other elements of the game have become more gaping. I see more realistic movement and behaviors in other football simulations and whenever you have that situation it makes the reality of our situation harder to accept IMO.

The bottom line for me is I'd like to see all current resources (and some new ones) focused on improving a few core elements of the game in the short term but I won't hold my breath. Whist improving game sales are great news for the future of the game they aren't necessarily great news for long time players with a genuine interest in accuracy and immersion. Every time there's a legitimate concern raised on here the go to response is that we are a vocal minority and most players don't have the same concerns we do. I'd liken the situation to a Premier League football club in pursuit of attracting overseas fans and raising its social media profile whilst forgetting the importance of its local supporters to its underlying identity....

 

Edited October 17, 2021 by janrzm

[mhaffy]

2 hours ago, janrzm said:

If the stats don't mirror those of real life it totally undermines and completely negates the importance of the Data Hub as a feature.

Agreed…. and stats produced by Full Match Engine and Quick Match Engine also need to be more closely aligned than they were in FM21 for those who scout using stats….

Edited October 17, 2021 by mhaffy

[lukavski]

1 hour ago, mhaffy said:

Agreed…. and stats produced by Full Match Engine and Quick Match Engine also need to be more closely aligned than they were in FM21 for those who scout using stats….

This is the most important discussion we are going to have once we can try the Data Hub. If Football Manager 2022 couldn't fix or improve FME and QME stats differences, the Data Hub is going to be an utterly mess of a feature.

[Stevicus]

23 hours ago, BrightLad5 said:

This type of thing would add a lot. I think it will come as AI improves. Increased AI awareness and the AI of individual players/staff having individual needs and issues that are tailored to the situation they are in.

I can only imagine the level of AI depth this would require so I can see why it maybe isn't as detailed right now but I too would love to see this kind of thing more in the future!

This is kind of in the game already, it just only goes the other way currently. If you sign a player in a position where there's already plenty of competition, those players with 'first team' and 'squad player' status will kick up a fuss and demand to be made clearer about their role and playing time. 

 

It's been in there for a couple of years now and I'm surprised it hasn't quite gotten to the potential signings coming in yet. Would certainly add a lot more realism when I'm trying to sign a 4th striker who seemingly has no qualms joining a team that plays with one up top 

[ferrarinseb]

Why is that passing is on high accuracy levels.

Well the answer is obvious if you see how the ai plays it's game. 

A team who wants to defend goes to very defensive /defensive mentality and it makes ai to play safe passes. Then add the mentality ladder of the defensive mentality which causes the players to choose safe passes even more 

If they constantly take safe passes when they will take long passes which is what they need to counter. This is one of the reason where ai keeps the ball at back so effectively as the back line and probably dm ahead of them have so many touches and so many successful passes in previous versions. 

If we talk Chelsea in fm terms they sit deep but they don't play defensive mentality at all. They play more like positive to create faster transitions to catch them out of position.

If ai plays counter or defensive on higher mentalities the game would open up alot and we can truly see how the ME plays out. Right now they sit deep but with little to no movement to create transitions due to mentality ladder. With little counter movement the pressing team just has the chance to press them even more probably causing it to be more op. If they go for counter This would also reduce the ge gen press or extreme pressing as the chances would force players to track back and go defend more which drains their stamina even more. 

I trust devs to find a way to make the ai game to counter more. Hopefully they will find it in this version. 

Edited October 18, 2021 by ferrarinseb

[kiwityke1983]

2 hours ago, ferrarinseb said:

Why is that passing is on high accuracy levels.

Well the answer is obvious if you see how the ai plays it's game. 

A team who wants to defend goes to very defensive /defensive mentality and it makes ai to play safe passes. Then add the mentality ladder of the defensive mentality which causes the players to choose safe passes even more 

When they constantly take safe passes when they will take long passes which is what they need to counter. This is one of the reason where ai keeps the ball at back so effectively as the back line and probably dm ahead of them have so many touches and so many successful passes in previous versions. 

If we talk Chelsea in fm terms they sit deep but they don't play defensive mentality at all. They play more like positive to create faster transitions to catch them out of position.

If ai plays counter or defensive on higher mentalities the game would open up alot and we can truly see how the ME plays out. Right now they sit deep but with little to no movement to create transitions due to mentality ladder. With little counter movement the pressing team just has the chance to press them even more probably causing it to be more op. If they go for counter This would also reduce the ge gen press or extreme pressing as the chances would force players to track back and go defend more which drains their stamina even more. 

I trust devs to find a way to make the ai game to counter more. Hopefully they will find it in this version. 

This has been a problem with the AI managers for years and by the looks of the stream it hasn't changed much.

Only Stoke and Barnsley really gave them a game out of the 5 or 6 teams they played.

[ferrarinseb]

51 minutes ago, kiwityke1983 said:

This has been a problem with the AI managers for years and by the looks of the stream it hasn't changed much.

Only Stoke and Barnsley really gave them a game out of the 5 or 6 teams they played.

I know. This is one of the reasons I feel holding the ME back to be more expansive. The game pushes towards defensive mentalities the moment player / ai team picks up form. 

Which is why I hope devs find some way to get more counters in this version. 

Edited October 18, 2021 by ferrarinseb

[Mars_Blackmon]

4 hours ago, ferrarinseb said:

Why is that passing is on high accuracy levels.

Well the answer is obvious if you see how the ai plays it's game. 

A team who wants to defend goes to very defensive /defensive mentality and it makes ai to play safe passes. Then add the mentality ladder of the defensive mentality which causes the players to choose safe passes even more 

If they constantly take safe passes when they will take long passes which is what they need to counter. This is one of the reason where ai keeps the ball at back so effectively as the back line and probably dm ahead of them have so many touches and so many successful passes in previous versions. 

If we talk Chelsea in fm terms they sit deep but they don't play defensive mentality at all. They play more like positive to create faster transitions to catch them out of position.

If ai plays counter or defensive on higher mentalities the game would open up alot and we can truly see how the ME plays out. Right now they sit deep but with little to no movement to create transitions due to mentality ladder. With little counter movement the pressing team just has the chance to press them even more probably causing it to be more op. If they go for counter This would also reduce the ge gen press or extreme pressing as the chances would force players to track back and go defend more which drains their stamina even more. 

I trust devs to find a way to make the ai game to counter more. Hopefully they will find it in this version. 

Yea this needs to be address before release. I’m currently in my save and I recently started scouting every team before I play and even though I am predicted to finish last in my league, everyone is playing a cautious mentality against me even when they are home. I’m 15 games in so far and haven’t even seen one team start out as attacking. They will usually switch to attacking late in the game.

[ferrarinseb]

8 minutes ago, Mars_Blackmon said:

Yea this needs to be address before release. I’m currently in my save and I recently started scouting every team before I play and even though I am predicted to finish last in my league, everyone is playing a cautious mentality against me even when they are home. I’m 15 games in so far and haven’t even seen one team start out as attacking. They will usually switch to attacking late in the game.

Well I think it will be in final stages so doubt it can drastically change before beta release. But I wish it will be addressed before March patch which is likely the final patch of this version. 

Edited October 18, 2021 by ferrarinseb

[Johnny Ace]

4 hours ago, ferrarinseb said:

Why is that passing is on high accuracy levels.

Well the answer is obvious if you see how the ai plays it's game. 

A team who wants to defend goes to very defensive /defensive mentality and it makes ai to play safe passes. Then add the mentality ladder of the defensive mentality which causes the players to choose safe passes even more 

Exactly, in FM terms, defensive mentalities sit the team deep & have them make short safe passes at a lower tempo around the back. Attacking mentalities push a team forward & have them be more forward thinking with their passing at a faster pace so its skews possession & passing rates

In real life you think of an attacking team chasing a game are going to be more direct & players won't dally about with the clock ticking, they get the ball forward asap by any means. A defensive team, defending a 1-0 lead, clinging onto the game would slow everything down & play safe which fits with FM. But if an attacking team is starting out, they'll be more patient in deeper areas & look to break through faster in attacking areas & defensive teams looking to make inroads from deep  

I think at one point, lower mentalities had deeper players pass more direct with the passing shortening as you went up the field and vice versa, attacking teams would pass short in deep areas of the pitch & more direct as they moved the ball into attack  

I believe now, playing on a Cautious mentality & maxing out the passing directness would bring the team passing up to the same as Balanced & reducing the Attacking mentality's passing right down would be level with Balanced too. It's why I'd rework the mentalities but it's a whole different topic really & a really difficult one 

[ferrarinseb]

5 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

Exactly, in FM terms, defensive mentalities sit the team deep & have them make short safe passes at a lower tempo around the back. Attacking mentalities push a team forward & have them be more forward thinking with their passing at a faster pace so its skews possession & passing rates

In real life you think of an attacking team chasing a game are going to be more direct & players won't dally about with the clock ticking, they get the ball forward asap by any means. A defensive team, defending a 1-0 lead, clinging onto the game would slow everything down & play safe which fits with FM. But if an attacking team is starting out, they'll be more patient in deeper areas & look to break through faster in attacking areas & defensive teams looking to make inroads from deep  

I think at one point, lower mentalities had deeper players pass more direct with the passing shortening as you went up the field and vice versa, attacking teams would pass short in deep areas of the pitch & more direct as they moved the ball into attack  

I believe now, playing on a Cautious mentality & maxing out the passing directness would bring the team passing up to the same as Balanced & reducing the Attacking mentality's passing right down would be level with Balanced too. It's why I'd rework the mentalities but it's a whole different topic really & a really difficult one 

Yes. It's where the whole problem stems. We players can fine-tune the settings but the question is can ai do the same.This is where it starts to get tricky for devs.

As much fun the game is , it has become complex more and more so fine tuning is getting harder and it might require a big rework soon. 

But I believe a rework helps alot or even removal of global mentalities particularly now we have role and duty mentalities so maintaining them and adjusting them might be simpler.

[toffee71]

Couldn't watch it live, but have now managed to watch the video, from my pov I'm happy with the polish/shuffling of menus data hub, and maybe tempted by the dark skin, though kind of miss the purple in the stream. Am curious to see more of the ME, if they do another stream, maybe they can play one match on comprehensive/full highlights one click faster match speed. Very much looking forward to beta release.

[Jack722]

Watched about half of the livestream yesterday.

I wouldn't be too concerned just yet about the continued success of the gegenpress tactic. We should find out pretty quickly once the beta comes out if you can still jut plugnplay it with any random players of any ability. I think that Sheffield United are a top Championship team with a large squad, so the gegenpress success across a limited number of games isn't too suprising. I rarely use gegenpress, so somebody can correct me if this is normal, but I did notice in the highlights that despite the instructions maxing out the pressing, the team were still dropping back into a midblock at times, which could be a result of the players deciding not to press at that moment due to tiredness / lack of a trigger.

What I was certainly impressed with though, is the increased compactness of the defending teams, with attack duty strikers helping out the defensive team. I think even if the whole accuracy/innacuracy concept doesn't have as much of an effect as expected, the ability to defend in a more compact manner is going to go a huge way into improving deep defensive play and nerfing the overly attacking tactics for FM22.

I'm a huge fan of the data hub as well, it looks really exciting. When it was first announced, I thought it was only really going to be a rebranding of the statistics that we have already and putting them in to one spot, but it's so much more than that.

Overall I'm quite hyped for FM22. I liked FM21 a lot, and the only thing that really bothered me about it was how teams defend when not pressing high. A while ago I made a feature request about it, and while I doubt they looked at my specific post (since it was too recent) they've changed it in the exact way that I was hoping they would, so I appreciate the effort made 

[rdbayly]

Just watched Zealand's video of his early access to the FM22 Alpha build.

I continue to be baffled why the entire back of the goal net flies up in the air when a tap in is scored. If anything, it's worse than FM21 for this. Yet another graphical aspect that wasn't an issue back on FM17.

 

Edited October 18, 2021 by rdbayly

[JordanMilly]

9 minutes ago, rdbayly said:

Just watched Zealand's video of his early access to the FM22 Alpha build.

I continue to be baffled why the entire back of the goal net flies up in the air when a tap in is scored. If anything, it's worse than FM21 for this. Yet another graphical aspect that wasn't an issue back on FM17.

 

Zealand might have had an older build than the FM stream did, as I didn't spot that net issue on the livestream.

[sedge11]

Watched a couple of the YouTube videos, and I know people were concerned with amount of goals from corners so I thought would check out the goals. From what I saw on Lollujo video, he was Dortmund so had Haaland who is just insane on the game. But he showed 4-5 games, in them games he showed 15 goals (which 2 were disallowed) and 3 of the goals were from corners.

There were a pretty good variety of goals, and animations did look quite nice.

[janrzm]

3 hours ago, rdbayly said:

Just watched Zealand's video of his early access to the FM22 Alpha build.

I continue to be baffled why the entire back of the goal net flies up in the air when a tap in is scored. If anything, it's worse than FM21 for this. Yet another graphical aspect that wasn't an issue back on FM17.

 

 

I don't want to get on people's case but I really think issues like the bulging net really devalues statements like this. If given a choice between the long standing bulging net issue being fixed and seeing a different warm up cut scene for a friendly I think I know what most people would chose.

 

 

 

 

[warlock]

4 hours ago, rdbayly said:

Just watched Zealand's video of his early access to the FM22 Alpha build

Me too... thought it was excellent. Improved 3d match animations, showed the fitness changes impacting gegenpress. Watched Lollujo's and Work the Space's videos, too. Also excellent. Data hub looks like a complete game-changer, staff meetings are great, big improvements to scouting and transfer dealings. Youth and country development saves are not my thing, but I'm sure changes there will make a lot of people happy.

For me, FM21 was the best game in the series, bar none. And FM22 already looks like another stride forward. Can't wait to play it!

[kiwityke1983]

Lollujo did seem to confirm Geggenpress is still very much plug and play although again the caveat being he was a top team.

[Dan_987]

4 hours ago, warlock said:

Watched Lollujo's and Work the Space's videos, too.

For me, FM21 was the best game in the series, bar none. And FM22 already looks like another stride forward. Can't wait to play it!

WorkTheSpace Top 10 video been my favourite so far.

Had to pause, but saw a screenshot of Staff being rated out of 5 Stars (recall Stars for reputation, but can't remember Ability.. other than Training Assignment). 

I've put x2-3 more hours in FM21, than FM20, which I can only remember for repetitive outside the box goals. 

[Nahuelzn]

3 hours ago, kiwityke1983 said:

Lollujo did seem to confirm Geggenpress is still very much plug and play although again the caveat being he was a top team.

Most of the streamers who were assigned the alpha did overperform, such as the stream from FM. I might think that the problem might not lie directly with gegenpress but with the AI being too passive again. But we'll have to wait until the beta comes out.

In reality, gegenpress should be OP as it factors one some things that will always work. But the trade offs should be more noticeable: if you don't have the players to do it, you should lose (this is what the stamina fix for FM22 should address). If you press high all the time and the other team is better than you, you'll have holes in your defense and eventually you'll lose. That's what's doesn't happen in FM right now.

But Dortmund should be able to gegenpress. The problem in FM21 and before is that I can do it with Mbeya City fighting for relegation in Tanzania 😂. What I didn't see that much was the inaccuracies they described. But again, all content creators played with top teams. Let's wait until the beta.