[Discussion] Are Striker Roles Described Incorrectly?

[Jack722]

On 17/11/2021 at 10:05, Johnny Ace said:

Great post 

That's the role I have him on in FM11 & you could say Lukaku plays in a similar way for Chelsea now

 

 

I definitely wouldn't say that Lukaku is a deep lying forward. Most of the time he occupies the centrebacks, probably as an AF. But when he does hold up the ball, it's more for facilitating build up, as a midfielder or a defender plays direct pass forward, past lines of pressure. They're not aimless long balls, but they are clearly using Lukaku as a target to recieve direct passes. So either a TMa or AFa.

Edited November 21, 2021 by Jack722

[Johnny Ace]

1 minute ago, Jack722 said:

I definitely wouldn't say that Lukaku is a deep lying forward. Most of the time he occupies the centrebacks, probably as an AF. But when he does hold up the ball, it's more for facilitating build up, as a midfielder or a defender plays direct pass forward, past lines of pressure. They're not aimless long balls, but they are clearly using Lukaku as a target to recieve direct passes. So either a TMa or AFa.

Why? He drops off the frontline with his back to goal, lays off & gets forward, DLF(A) for all day long for me, he doesn't play off the shoulder like an AF(A) would & certainly not a TF, all open to interpretation I suppose & Lukaku doesn't go onto the pitch with a label over his head  

[Jack722]

On 13/11/2021 at 00:03, zyfon5 said:

From what I can see that is pretty much a false 9. He is playing no different than a creative attacking midfielder. The deep lying forward is largely extinct in the modern game because creative midfielders are much physically fitter now and hence are able to perform the hybrid creator and scorer role that is associated with the deep lying forward. The deep lying forward existed in the past because English football evolved without a pure creative midfielder and hence there is a need for a striker to help link up the play while still providing a secondary goal threat. And herein lies the biggest difference between the false 9 and the deep lying forward. The false 9 is more of a pure creator role while the deep lying forward is a hybrid role.

Warning: below are my personal opinions of the game and should not be taken as fact

You can play a technically proficient target man and will look exactly the same as a deep lying forward in FM. Both roles still exist individually because of how the game codes the target man by increasing long balls towards the role. If you have a short but strong player that you want to hold up the ball you are screwed by playing him as a target man due the hidden mechanic of the role that it attracts aerial balls from the team.

I play with a TM most of my game in my most recent half season. we have mixed passing and we don't play out of defence. I really don't notice many 'lumped' long balls, like people say happens with target men. I imagine that the frequency of this is overexaggurated. 

Based on my experience, I think you get an increase in direct passes (more vertical passes ie. CB -> ST) but they aren't necessarily aeiral, and they're still high percentage passes, because that's the point of a TM, to use his strength and first touch to control direct passes and allow the team to move up the pitch. Also, if the TM automatically meant that your team would start playing long ball, then what would be the point of the passing slider when using this role?

PS can someone link me to an official SI post that comfirms the changes to passing when you use a TM?

Edited November 21, 2021 by Jack722

[Jack722]

4 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

Why? He drops off the frontline with his back to goal, lays off & gets forward, DLF(A) for all day long for me, he doesn't play off the shoulder like an AF(A) would & certainly not a TF, all open to interpretation I suppose & Lukaku doesn't go onto the pitch with a label over his head  

I think that's more TMa or AF behaviour. Most of the time he stays in the ST position occupying the centrebacks (remember attacking forwards can still drop deep and help buildup frequently, like how an F9 can still attack the box). And when he drops deep to recieve with his back to goal, it's more to 'lay off' to a team mate. he doesn't really recieve the ball to turn and make a defence splitting pass to another player further forward.

Although I agree you can't put labels on irl players, I would definitely say he's mix between a TMa and AFa.

[Jack722]

Lukaku's first goal in this game is a TMa all day for me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=of-6Br69srs&t=30s&ab_channel=SkySportsFootball

Kovacic uses him as a target to play a controlled, direct pass, and then Lukaku simply lays it off to another player. Most the time he is the furthest player forward and is the main goal threat as he attacks the box. He doesn't drop deeper to recieve the ball, but him being able to control the ball and occupy a CB means that other players sense danger and make runs forward.

[The #9.5]

Think the difference between DLF/a and AF/a is what they do on the ball. Both are attacking CFs who will look to roam the channels and generally aim to get into the box to finish moves.

The former is more about playing with his back to goal and do lay-offs (as you said), instead of dropping deeper and orchestrating team moves to then send someone through on goal (this is DLF/s, F9, CF/s role). The AF/a is more about staying higher up most of the time and when on the ball, looking to primary dribble his way to a shooting position. He will play far less with back to goal. 

I agree that DLF/a could probably have a different name when on attack duty as the label DLF is what confuses people, more than his actual behaviour or role. 

EDIT: TM is just an even more physical and less technical equivalent of the DLF role. He does less running and passing and is even more concentrated on back to goal play and lay-offs/knock-downs. 

Edited November 21, 2021 by The #9.5

[Jack722]

4 minutes ago, The #9.5 said:

Think the difference between DLF/a and AF/a is what they do on the ball. Both are attacking CFs who will look to roam the channels and generally aim to get into the box to finish moves.

The former is more about playing with his back to goal and do lay-offs (as you said), instead of dropping deeper and orchestrating team moves to then send someone through on goal (this is DLF/s, F9, CF/s role). The AF/a is more about staying higher up most of the time and when on the ball, looking to primary dribble his way to a shooting position. He will play far less with back to goal. 

I agree that DLF/a could probably have a different name when on attack duty as the label DLF is what confuses people, more than his actual behaviour or role. 

EDIT: TM is just an even more physical and less technical equivalent of the DLF role. He does less running and passing and is even more concentrated on back to goal play and lay-offs/knock-downs. 

Again I would say staying up front with your back to goal doing lay offs is more like a TM to me. Even if we agree that DLF is a strong hold up player (which I still don't really) then it would be a bit silly to have two completely differently labeled roles with the only difference being that one attracts more long balls.

[The #9.5]

Agree but I think the TM role is purposefully more rudamentory in his overall approach, while DLF is more technical and versatile. And I like this is well represented in FM.  

DLF won't always just play with back to goal but TM might. DLF will do other stuff as he has the skills, TM player is just a someone who is big and strong and nothing else. Which is why you need an even more limited role that the DLF, which is TM for such old-school type of CFs. 

EDIT: 

Think about Andy Carroll and Lukaku. The former is a proper old-school TM and he can't do anything else. Lukaku can be TM if you like, but he is far more than that, so DLF/a suits him more. But he isn't mobile, technical and creative enough to be a proper CF/a, so DLF/a is perfect. And I like how FM has all this roles to suit the different type of players.

 

Edited November 21, 2021 by The #9.5

[Johnny Ace]

25 minutes ago, Jack722 said:

Lukaku's first goal in this game is a TMa all day for me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=of-6Br69srs&t=30s&ab_channel=SkySportsFootball

Kovacic uses him as a target to play a controlled, direct pass, and then Lukaku simply lays it off to another player. Most the time he is the furthest player forward and is the main goal threat as he attacks the box. He doesn't drop deeper to recieve the ball, but him being able to control the ball and occupy a CB means that other players sense danger and make runs forward.

That first goal is exactly DLF(A) behaviour though, drops off, holds up, lays off, bursts forward even the second goal you can see he's dropped off the defensive line which is key behaviour for a DLF(A). A DLF(A) will still occupy the CBs like a 9 when his team has the ball high up the pitch, on support, probably not 

[Jack722]

17 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

That first goal is exactly DLF(A) behaviour though, drops off, holds up, lays off, bursts forward even the second goal you can see he's dropped off the defensive line which is key behaviour for a DLF(A). A DLF(A) will still occupy the CBs like a 9 when his team has the ball high up the pitch, on support, probably not 

He doesn't drop off though. He stays in position. It looks like he goes deeper, but that's just because teammates are making runs around him in behind, forcing the other defenders to step back. Also the DLF says nothing about laying off passes to teammates, it's more about fashioning chances out for himself or his teammates. Simply laying off the ball isn't 'fashioning out a chance'. Recieivng the ball and laying it off is more target man behaviour.

Also, attacking strikers aren't glued to the shoulder of the last man. All strikers will drop deeper at times, it's part of the role. But if you compare Luakau to someone like Firmino, or Kane last season, you can see how much higher up the pitch Lukaku is than the other two. He also makes lots more runs in behind and spends more time occupying centrebacks.

 

Edited November 21, 2021 by Jack722

[Johnny Ace]

9 minutes ago, Jack722 said:

He doesn't drop off though. He stays in position. It looks like he goes deeper, but that's just because teammates are making runs around him in behind, forcing the other defenders to step back. Also the DLF says nothing about laying off passes to teammates, it's more about fashioning chances out for himself or his teammates. Simply laying off the ball isn't 'fashioning out a chance'. Recieivng the ball and laying it off is more target man behaviour.

Also, attacking strikers aren't glued to the shoulder of the last man. All strikers will drop deeper at times, it's part of the role. But if you compare Luakau to someone like Firmino, or Kane last season, you can see how much higher up the pitch Lukaku is than the other two. He also makes lots more runs in behind and spends more time occupying centrebacks.

 

But he has dropped off, if he was an AF(A), TM(A), P(A) he'd stay with the backline. Look when he receives the ball, he's not trying to get inbetween the CBs, he's trying to hold off the defender so he can hold up the ball. That's what a DLF(A) does. They're not going to hold the ball up facing the opposition, playing with your back to goal is about laying off passes. The fashioning out chances is the risky passes PI. You can play Lukaku any role you like, so can the AI but to say he's not a DLF, isn't right.   

Lukaku's nothing like Kane or Firmino, he's far more attacking than Firmino & Kane drops far too deep for his own good 

In FM terms, generally, a TF suits more direct passing, a DLF, shorter passing 

[Jack722]

On 21/11/2021 at 13:41, Johnny Ace said:

Look when he receives the ball, he's not trying to get inbetween the CBs, he's trying to hold off the defender so he can hold up the ball. That's what a DLF(A) does

You're literally describing a target man 

On 21/11/2021 at 13:41, Johnny Ace said:

In FM terms, generally, a TF suits more direct passing, a DLF, shorter passing 

I just think this just a false and over simplistic way of putting things. Like I said before, the use of a target man in my experience, maybe not yours, doesn't turn your team into a longball side, and the target man can be a really useful physical player to hold up the ball and improve overall team play. I agree with what @The #9.5 said earlier about the DLF being more like the technical striker in a 442, Le Tissier, Cantona, Zola etc.

I don't think we're gonna change each other's mind, but i'd recommend playing a simple 442 against a rubbish team in a friendly with a TFa and DLFa up front. What I notice doing this is that the TMa stays slightly further forward but takes a step just in front of the centrebacks to show himself for the ball, while the DLF drops deep and recieves the ball in much more space, rarely holding off a centreback unless they have stepped out to mark him.

[Johnny Ace]

1 minute ago, Jack722 said:

You're literally describing a target man 

I'm not 

4 minutes ago, Jack722 said:

I just think this just a false and over simplistic way of putting things. Like I said before, the use of a target man in my experience, maybe not yours, doesn't turn your team into a longball side, and the target man can be a really useful physical player to hold up the ball and improve overall team play.

You do understand Target Forwards have the focus play effect? They trigger balls to them, you may notice they get more headers than other forward roles. So more direct passing suits them, simplistic (like I said)  yes, false, no 

 

13 minutes ago, Jack722 said:

I don't think we're gonna change each other's mind

Nah, the joys of Footy Manager, bringing different opinions & discussions, it's interesting 

17 minutes ago, Jack722 said:

but i'd recommend playing a simple 442 against a rubbish team in a friendly with a TFa and DLFa up front. What I notice doing this is that the TMa stays slightly further forward but takes a step just in front of the centrebacks to show himself for the ball, while the DLF drops deep and recieves the ball in much more space, rarely holding off a centreback unless they have stepped out to mark him.

I shall, I'm always messing out with roles 

[Beerwulf]

On 16/11/2021 at 20:39, _mxrky said:

I’m using a 442 right now with a false nine. , but I’m unsure what role to use. Advanced forward works well, but I ideally want my striker to be involved in the build up as well as be the main goal scorer. Which role would be best. For that purpose. Cf(a), dlf (a) or pf (a)

Don't forget about Poacher.

He'll stay central, lay the ball off, and look to run in behind.

But the great thing about Poacher are all the things he doesn't do. He won't run the channels, he won't drop deep and won't roam to the flanks.

If he's roaming around or dropping deep, he's moving away from goal.

[Jack722]

11 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

I'm not 

You do understand Target Forwards have the focus play effect? They trigger balls to them, you may notice they get more headers than other forward roles. So more direct passing suits them, simplistic (like I said)  yes, false, no 

 

Nah, the joys of Footy Manager, bringing different opinions & discussions, it's interesting 

I shall, I'm always messing out with roles 

Good response. I appreciate your input, like everyone else's, even if we don't agree.

[olegmelnikov]

Interesting discussion, lads!

I manage Reading now, my second season, using rather simple 442, with classic pair: TF and AF. In my opinion, in fm22 TF plays completely differently to previous fm. My key observations: TF (A) drops much deeper than ever in FM and attracts fewer long balls. My AF attracts much more long balls from deep, trying to beat the offside trap. I need to play more games to be completely sure about it, but this is what i saw in first 6 matches.

 

 

[nidhar.ram]

On 24/11/2021 at 06:37, olegmelnikov said:

Interesting discussion, lads!

I manage Reading now, my second season, using rather simple 442, with classic pair: TF and AF. In my opinion, in fm22 TF plays completely differently to previous fm. My key observations: TF (A) drops much deeper than ever in FM and attracts fewer long balls. My AF attracts much more long balls from deep, trying to beat the offside trap. I need to play more games to be completely sure about it, but this is what i saw in first 6 matches.

 

 

But I am not sure if that's what TF especially on attack is supposed to do.  IMO, he must be the player always sitting on the last defender with his back to the goal, trying to win long balls and clearances from deep and laying it to runners from wing and midfield. 

[olegmelnikov]

3 hours ago, nidhar.ram said:

But I am not sure if that's what TF especially on attack is supposed to do.  IMO, he must be the player always sitting on the last defender with his back to the goal, trying to win long balls and clearances from deep and laying it to runners from wing and midfield. 

Yes, agree with you. To be honest, the way of how TF drops deep totally ruined my plan how I want my team to play the first season after promotion. 

[bibird.]

1 hour ago, olegmelnikov said:

Yes, agree with you. To be honest, the way of how TF drops deep totally ruined my plan how I want my team to play the first season after promotion. 

Might be obvious, but does he have a PPM like "comes deep to get ball" or are you playing with a shorter passing TI? These things could mean that your TF will come deeper to get the ball.

[zZzZzZzZzZzZzZz]

On 21/11/2021 at 12:39, Jack722 said:

the only player I can think of (off the top of my head) that fits the FM's version of DLF is Che Adams at Southampton. But even then, I'd argue that he plays more as a supporting TM. he frequently drops off the forward line to recieve the ball with his back to goal as a way of moving the ball up the pitch with direct passes. Not as a way to recieve the ball when your team has moved up the pitch already and try to create chances for his strike partner through dribbling and flair and passing, like the players you listed.

I would say that Haller at Frankfurt and Joelinton at Hoffenheim both played much like the description of the DLF in Football Manager.

Tifo made videos on both and why they struggled at the Premier League teams that bought them:

[olegmelnikov]

10 hours ago, bibird. said:

Might be obvious, but does he have a PPM like "comes deep to get ball" or are you playing with a shorter passing TI? These things could mean that your TF will come deeper to get the ball.

 

No, I signed Mitrovic with PPM "Plays with back to goal" - in my opinion this is ideal PPM for TF.

I play more direct passes with balance mentality and standard with positive.

[Prepper_Jack]

5 hours ago, olegmelnikov said:

 

No, I signed Mitrovic with PPM "Plays with back to goal" - in my opinion this is ideal PPM for TF.

I play more direct passes with balance mentality and standard with positive.

Plays with back to goal means they generally stay a little deeper, and wait for something to be dropped towards them. It's more for a TM(Su) than a TM(At), because they'll dwell on the ball a little before deciding what to do with it, which in the case of a TM(Su) would usually be to flick it to a passing AF or P for their run on goal. A better trait for a TM(At) would be "Stays inside the Penalty Area", where they'll follow the line of play up and wait for a cross to come in.

[Jack722]

5 hours ago, Prepper_Jack said:

Plays with back to goal means they generally stay a little deeper, and wait for something to be dropped towards them. It's more for a TM(Su) than a TM(At), because they'll dwell on the ball a little before deciding what to do with it, which in the case of a TM(Su) would usually be to flick it to a passing AF or P for their run on goal. A better trait for a TM(At) would be "Stays inside the Penalty Area", where they'll follow the line of play up and wait for a cross to come in.

If you want someone in the box to wait for crosses, just pick a tall poacher who's good in the box. I think the TM movement is actually decent as the role should be looking to recieve passes as much as possible.

[Prepper_Jack]

53 minutes ago, Jack722 said:

If you want someone in the box to wait for crosses, just pick a tall poacher who's good in the box.

Depends on how good their heading and jumping reach are, and not just height. The only role on the pitch outside central defenders that receive primary training in jumping and heading are the target men, whether in ST(C) slots or in the advanced wings. Poachers are given secondary training in heading, but are given no training in jumping at all. The complete forward receives primary heading and secondary jump training. Aside from that, the only role I can recall getting any jump training outside of the centers is the half back, who gets secondary training in jumping, and no heading training. In order to train a poacher to have that same ability, you'd have to either use extra individual training, which will eventually just stop working at a relatively low point, or frequent strength sessions that will probably annoy the squad. So, I'm not really sure I see the sense in training a giant to be a poacher, instead of a target man. It's not like you can really find such players on the market, either, as if you had a tall player good at heading, the physicals to jump, decent finishing, they would be listed as a target man, and not a poacher. The other thing a target man has that benefits them in such a situation is a training in bravery, which is necessary when you're getting in the box and basically attempting to outpower the defense to do what needs to be done.

No, the TF(At) is the king of dealing with crosses, typically floating or whipped, and the trait "stays inside penalty box" was once named "static target man" pretty much because the instruction was designed for the TM(At). They either receive a direct pass, and with the benefit of a good first touch, flick it to their strike partner for an easy goal, or take a cross to the face and hopefully overwhelm the defense with aerial ability and the resulting header.

1 hour ago, Jack722 said:

I think the TM movement is actually decent as the role should be looking to recieve passes as much as possible.

But that's not really what the target man is built for. If it were, they'd be in the back line, passing between all the central defenses for minutes at a time, as they do. Their function is to receive the ball at the most advantageous spot possible, and do the most dangerous thing they can with it. To this end, they will stick near the opposition defensive line, much like other forwards. They will attempt to win the header (and we can only hope they do), control the ball quickly with good first touch, and then hold it while the opposition defense try to get it, using their immense strength to hold them at bay, waiting for someone to run past while the defense is engaged with them. In this way they operate as a distraction and pivot for the real play, which is hopefully a rush on goal after a quick pass off.

[Jack722]

4 hours ago, Prepper_Jack said:

Depends on how good their heading and jumping reach are, and not just height.

Sorry - this is what I meant by good in the box - like a big, tall, strong, high jumping, good header player. Wasn't clear 

4 hours ago, Prepper_Jack said:

he only role on the pitch outside central defenders that receive primary training in jumping and heading are the target men, whether in ST(C) slots or in the advanced wings. Poachers are given secondary training in heading, but are given no training in jumping at all. The complete forward receives primary heading and secondary jump training. Aside from that, the only role I can recall getting any jump training outside of the centers is the half back, who gets secondary training in jumping, and no heading training. In order to train a poacher to have that same ability, you'd have to either use extra individual training, which will eventually just stop working at a relatively low point, or frequent strength sessions that will probably annoy the squad. So, I'm not really sure I see the sense in training a giant to be a poacher, instead of a target man. It's not like you can really find such players on the market, either, as if you had a tall player good at heading, the physicals to jump, decent finishing, they would be listed as a target man, and not a poacher. The other thing a target man has that benefits them in such a situation is a training in bravery, which is necessary when you're getting in the box and basically attempting to outpower the defense to do what needs to be done.

Not really sure what you mean by this. If you already have a good jumper and headerer, then you won't need to worry about training him in those attributes? You can also train a player in a different role to whay he plays.

An example of what I meant is that if you want to have a 'target man' like player to just stay in the box and wait for headers, then just play a 'target man' as a poacher. Like set Andy Carroll's role to a poacher if you get me. Otherwise any other target man role will rightfully try to get more involved in buildup.

[Jack722]

4 hours ago, Prepper_Jack said:

But that's not really what the target man is built for. If it were, they'd be in the back line, passing between all the central defenses for minutes at a time, as they do. Their function is to receive the ball at the most advantageous spot possible, and do the most dangerous thing they can with it. To this end, they will stick near the opposition defensive line, much like other forwards. They will attempt to win the header (and we can only hope they do), control the ball quickly with good first touch, and then hold it while the opposition defense try to get it, using their immense strength to hold them at bay, waiting for someone to run past while the defense is engaged with them. In this way they operate as a distraction and pivot for the real play, which is hopefully a rush on goal after a quick pass off.

Again I feel like you're just describing a player with the build of a target man but given the instructions for a poacher. Play someone like Carroll or Calver-lewin upfront as a lone poacher and I think you'll find they do exactly this. Poachers are told to dribble less and play simple passes, so they end up naturally laying the ball of a lot. And playing a natural TM as a P won't make them lose their ability to head the ball or be strong.

[Prepper_Jack]

2 hours ago, Jack722 said:

Not really sure what you mean by this. If you already have a good jumper and headerer, then you won't need to worry about training him in those attributes? You can also train a player in a different role to whay he plays.

Skills aren't permanent, and players have occasional dips in their attributes that are offset by training. Over the long term this leads to significant changes in attributes. Personally I would be hesitant to train anyone who is a more versatile and well rounded striker as a poacher, because the poacher skill set is the most limited in the game. I've only ever done this when a player I really like has low potential ability, because you can turn people who would not naturally be Premier players into such by hyper-focusing their abilities. This, however, burdens the team, because the poacher contributes literally nothing to the play leading up to goal.

The target man is more versatile, contributes to build up play rather significantly, and gets into areas that poachers wouldn't in order to be able to effectively score. If you have someone who is perfectly suited to be a target man, there is little reason to play him as something else, unless he is even more versatile, like a complete forward.

3 hours ago, Jack722 said:

An example of what I meant is that if you want to have a 'target man' like player to just stay in the box and wait for headers, then just play a 'target man' as a poacher.

If you're referring to what I said about the trait "stays inside penalty area", then you're misunderstanding what the trait does. It asks a TM in the ST(C) role to stay in the center of the pitch and lead the line into the penalty box, where they will make space for an attempt on goal or bang in a cross. It also tells them to not go into channels, more or less forcing them to go head to head with the opposition centers. They don't literally just stand in the opposition penalty box the entire match, chatting with the keeper or whatever.

2 hours ago, Jack722 said:

Again I feel like you're just describing a player with the build of a target man but given the instructions for a poacher.

What I described is what Target Forwards do in real life, as well as in the game. I will say that in the real world target men also have a bit of pressing forward in them, and will be aggressive in tackling on the line. They kind of do this in game, though aren't given the "tackle harder" instruction. But, hey, you can always add that in there, and I'm glad the option is not always on by default.

Poachers do something different, namely to wander around the penalty box sneakily, finding a dangerous spot that is not well defended, and wait for a pass to finish, or opportunity to head something in. They don't contribute to build up play very well (if at all), and they aren't looking to hold up the ball and draw defenders out of position to make a pass to someone else to score. They are only focused on scoring, and do so in a far less aggressive and physical manner than the target man.

So, I'm not sure why you would associate the qualities of what I described as a poacher.