When to use a False 9?

[HotPizza87]

Some assumptions:
1) A team using a false 9 has no expectation of pressing high up the pitch because the false 9 is naturally a role that has the striker stand off defenders.

2) A false 9 should only be used in a lone striker system, normally also with wide players coming inside to attack the vacated space (but it could also work with a narrow formation, though it's less common).

3) A team wishing to largely employ a counter attacking style of play with a low block would not benefit from a false 9 because the STC player should be looking to attack space in behind which will work more consistently than for example a false 9 and shadow striker.

4) A false 9 absolutely needs at least one attack duty player either from the flank, AMC or even central midfield (I suspect that a Mez(A) or CM(A) with a F9 would not be enough on is own to be effective at creating chances and scoring)

5) The best time to use a false 9 is when you expect your team to dominate the game and face opposition that sits deep because that will cause the opposition defence to occasionally leave their box to follow the F9.

Question A:
How accurate are these assumptions? Explain your reasoning.

Question B:
What in your view are the ideal circumstances to use a False 9?

Question C:
What roles and duties would you typically be looking to employ to maximise the benefit of a false 9?

Question D:
If you use a F9 in a 4-3-3 (or 4-1-2-3 DM Wide in some FM terms), at least one of the AML/R players should be on attack duty IMO. But this means that they will not track back and help their full back very much when the team is out of possession. How do you go about compensating for this?

[Johnny Ace]

You've got a good grasp of it there @HotPizza87I think you can still press high with a F9 (see City) because the idea of him dropping so deep it to prevent congestion & allow others into the space he vacates

A) 

B) If you have a great player suitable for the role or you're a top team (you don' really see the none elite teams deploy a F9)

C) IF(A), RMD(A), CM(A) etc

D) Yeah, one or two IF(A)s, maybe an option from deep if you're only using the one IF(A) 

Time to try it out!!  If you have any problems, post your tactic up on here

[Tsuru]

1 hora atrás, Johnny Ace disse:

B) If you have a great player suitable for the role or you're a top team (you don' really see the none elite teams deploy a F9)

I think this should be the starting point - to have a player that can be a good F9. Sometimes we have great tactical ideas but is not that they don´t work, in fact they do - it is just we don´t have players good enough to do what we want.

[Jack722]

9 hours ago, HotPizza87 said:

Some assumptions:
1) A team using a false 9 has no expectation of pressing high up the pitch because the false 9 is naturally a role that has the striker stand off defenders.

2) A false 9 should only be used in a lone striker system, normally also with wide players coming inside to attack the vacated space (but it could also work with a narrow formation, though it's less common).

3) A team wishing to largely employ a counter attacking style of play with a low block would not benefit from a false 9 because the STC player should be looking to attack space in behind which will work more consistently than for example a false 9 and shadow striker.

4) A false 9 absolutely needs at least one attack duty player either from the flank, AMC or even central midfield (I suspect that a Mez(A) or CM(A) with a F9 would not be enough on is own to be effective at creating chances and scoring)

5) The best time to use a false 9 is when you expect your team to dominate the game and face opposition that sits deep because that will cause the opposition defence to occasionally leave their box to follow the F9.

Question A:
How accurate are these assumptions? Explain your reasoning.

Question B:
What in your view are the ideal circumstances to use a False 9?

Question C:
What roles and duties would you typically be looking to employ to maximise the benefit of a false 9?

Question D:
If you use a F9 in a 4-3-3 (or 4-1-2-3 DM Wide in some FM terms), at least one of the AML/R players should be on attack duty IMO. But this means that they will not track back and help their full back very much when the team is out of possession. How do you go about compensating for this?

I don't agree with the majority of your assumptions,

1. The point of the F9 is that it starts high when possession is won and when the team is defending, it only drops off reguarly when your're attacking. Remember the formation is your defensive shape, so if he is in the ST position, he will position himself in defence like a lot of other strikers.
2. In FM you can absolutely use a F9 in a pairing. It is viable in the tactics creator, and you can easily create a strong tractic with a F9 and a partner. However, I don't think FM should let you use a F9 in a partnership. It's description is that of an 'unconventional lone striker' and the term is generally saved for teams that aren't playing with a conventinal striker. I personally only ever use the F9 as a lone striker for this reason. Others would disagree.
3. A F9 can absolutely be used in these systems. Roles basically just give general tendencies. player decisions are based off of TI's, roles and player attributes. If your F9 has decent off the ball and decisions, and the most obvious thing to do is to run in behind (like in a counter) the F9 will do it. Roles don't turn players into robots. Sometimes it might be better to use a F9, since a lone attacking striker could get isolated if the rest of the team is being pushed back defending.
4. Not true. The only not ST role IIRC that is focused on running in behind and attacking open spaces is the raumdeuter. Like in the previous point, if the F9 pulls away and opens up a space in the defensive line, almost any top player in the AMR/AML/CAM will be able to recognise the space and exploit it. Also, don't think in terms of duties, an IFs has an equal if not higher mentality than a Wa.
5. Firstly, the defenders won't always leave their line to follow a F9, they could easily just pass off the F9 to a midfielder to mark. Sometimes it's more beneficial to use a traditional striker to pin the opposition CB's and open up spaces for wide attackers to exploit. Also what if a team uses a 5atb? a centreback may step out to mark the F9, but then you still won't open up any space since the remaining defenders can converge the gaps to form a temporary back 4. If this was the case, why would Man City be interested in Halaand? and why would Chelsea have spent all that money on Lukaku? 

Hope this helps.

[Prepper_Jack]

12 hours ago, Tsuru said:

I think this should be the starting point - to have a player that can be a good F9. Sometimes we have great tactical ideas but is not that they don´t work, in fact they do - it is just we don´t have players good enough to do what we want.

Not sure the game really calculates the star ratings of certain advanced roles very well. I've had, in lower leagues, set up a regista who has maybe 3 silver stars, and he performed 8+ form in every match in a season.

I've been playing with F9's lately a little bit in the lower leagues. They have worked decently so far, but I'm hesitant to change it to that full time. One thing I have noticed as a side bonus from switching to F9/SS combo in game is that, because they always hard press and tight mark the AM(C) role hard, when his role becomes SS, and he starts rushing the box, I've been getting lots of penalty kicks. Kind of where most of the goals have come from with this strat, to be honest.

Edited November 18, 2021 by Prepper_Jack

[EnigMattic1]

4 hours ago, Prepper_Jack said:

Not sure the game really calculates the star ratings of certain advanced roles very well. I've had, in lower leagues, set up a regista who has maybe 3 silver stars, and he performed 8+ form in every match in a season.

I've been playing with F9's lately a little bit in the lower leagues. They have worked decently so far, but I'm hesitant to change it to that full time. One thing I have noticed as a side bonus from switching to F9/SS combo in game is that, because they always hard press and tight mark the AM(C) role hard, when his role becomes SS, and he starts rushing the box, I've been getting lots of penalty kicks. Kind of where most of the goals have come from with this strat, to be honest.

Aren't the star ratings just your own staff members opinion of said player in comparison to the rest of your team? I know I've fallen into that trap before and couldn't work out why a players star rating dropped after I signed a bigger/better player. 

[Prepper_Jack]

4 minutes ago, EnigMattic1 said:

Aren't the star ratings just your own staff members opinion of said player in comparison to the rest of your team? I know I've fallen into that trap before and couldn't work out why a players star rating dropped after I signed a bigger/better player. 

Partially. Your best players potential ability, as seen by the coaching staff, sets the upper bar for what's considered 5 star in your team. Otherwise the game does take into account the stats of a player to determine whether they are well suited to it or not. In the case of these "advanced" roles, I just think they misapplied the weightings or something. I've tinkered with it in the editor before, giving them a point here and there to see what happens with that rating, and sure enough, once you hit a certain threshold, which is rather low, you suddenly jump up a few stars. Literally 1 ability point can be the difference between 1 star and 5 stars in suitability. So, yeah, if your player is decent in those particular stats it outlines for the role, as per the league average, he should be able to function with it fairly well, regardless if the game says he's suitable or not.

[TheGhostofPaulLambert]

On 18/11/2021 at 00:34, HotPizza87 said:

Some assumptions:
1) A team using a false 9 has no expectation of pressing high up the pitch because the false 9 is naturally a role that has the striker stand off defenders.

2) A false 9 should only be used in a lone striker system, normally also with wide players coming inside to attack the vacated space (but it could also work with a narrow formation, though it's less common).

3) A team wishing to largely employ a counter attacking style of play with a low block would not benefit from a false 9 because the STC player should be looking to attack space in behind which will work more consistently than for example a false 9 and shadow striker.

4) A false 9 absolutely needs at least one attack duty player either from the flank, AMC or even central midfield (I suspect that a Mez(A) or CM(A) with a F9 would not be enough on is own to be effective at creating chances and scoring)

5) The best time to use a false 9 is when you expect your team to dominate the game and face opposition that sits deep because that will cause the opposition defence to occasionally leave their box to follow the F9.

Question A:
How accurate are these assumptions? Explain your reasoning.

Question B:
What in your view are the ideal circumstances to use a False 9?

Question C:
What roles and duties would you typically be looking to employ to maximise the benefit of a false 9?

Question D:
If you use a F9 in a 4-3-3 (or 4-1-2-3 DM Wide in some FM terms), at least one of the AML/R players should be on attack duty IMO. But this means that they will not track back and help their full back very much when the team is out of possession. How do you go about compensating for this?

Personally I'd disagree with this. Won the league first season with villa using a counter attacking 442 that was really a 4231 inspired by Dean Smith. The F9 was crucial. They are essentially an AM that lines up in the striker tier so perfect for creating a compact shape but still moving between the lines. Honestly revolutionized things for me.

[HotPizza87]

On 19/11/2021 at 08:56, TheGhostofPaulLambert said:

Personally I'd disagree with this. Won the league first season with villa using a counter attacking 442 that was really a 4231 inspired by Dean Smith. The F9 was crucial. They are essentially an AM that lines up in the striker tier so perfect for creating a compact shape but still moving between the lines. Honestly revolutionized things for me.

What part did you disagree with and why?