Was Counter Attacking 4-4-1-1 - Now 4-4-2 Counter (FM21)

[Harpoon76]

I wonder if the first place to start here is my expectations?

I'm trying a Dafuge challenge and I picked Tamworth.  Two seasons ago we managed to get promoted from the VNN to the VNL.  Last season we were one of the favourites to go straight back down but managed to finish 18th, 6 points clear of the bottom four.  We're utterly skint, are still semi-pro and with a low reputation mean recruitment is fighting for free transfers with all the other VNL/VNN teams in the same boat!  There's a "Favoured" board expectation to play counter-attacking football.

I did try the 4-4-1-1 counter last season but exasperated, went back to a 4-4-2 for a few matches which got us some crucial wins.  Looking at matches when starting as the 4-4-1-1, we generally got 45 to 50% possession.  Now, my expectation is that we're not living on the counter and have spells of possession where should be creating some sort of chances.  If we had just 30% possession, I could entirely understand that would be the brief foray up the pitch before ending up sat deep again.

Mentality: Positive.  Why Positive?  Well, I've read endless other forum posts and blogs.  Some, like the tactic creator, go with Cautious for counter.  Other examples I've found go with Positive.  I also thought Positive fitted in more with my idea that we're not just living on the counter.  At some point in most matches, we should have spells of possession and try to do something with it.

TIs: I thought @engamohd excellent thread on counter attacking (here) made sense.  As we're not the best team (my defenders are very quick), drop the DL and LOE to reduce space behind.  When we do press, press More Urgent to try to get the ball back and thus release a counter.  Hence in transition, I went with Counter and Distribute Quickly.  As we only have 1 striker on support, anything hoofed up the pitch is coming straight back at as, so I want to Play out of Defence.

Roles: I was trying an AM(A) at AMC.   However, I switched it up to a SS(A) and BBM(S) during the first match of the season to hopefully get a bit more bite.  Last season I also tried a CM(S) in midfield but wanted the BBM(S) to hopefully get further forward.

The season started well against Dag & Red.  It should have been 3-0 but my striker had a second penalty saved and then hit the post with the follow-up.  The match stat's for us were 7 shots, 4 OT (2.08 xG) and 49% possession.  D&R had 8 shots with 3 OT (0.38 xG).  A good result but we didn't have a single shot in the first half which is concerning (hence going from AM(A) to SS(A)).

My thinking was the Mansfield result was a freak / bad luck.  We had 12 shots, 7 OT and 0.96 xG.  Mansfield were 16 shots, 10 OT and 1.85 xG - their strikers rated 9.3 and 8.6, plus their GK got 7.5.  I thought my defence were way too lightweight but they took their chances.

My bigger concern is the Dulwich Hamlet match.  We created two-thirds of nothing:

Our first shot was in the 1st minute, then our 2nd and 3rd were in the 89th and 90th minute.

Are there a glaring errors in my tactic?  Am I expecting the wrong thing in that we can counter when the chance is presented but otherwise "be in the game"?

Edited December 8, 2021 by Harpoon76
Added FM21 to title for clarity of version

[Johnny Ace]

I'd just try changing the SS(A) to a Support Role & the PF on A, I think that will give you more bite, everything else looks fine. I'm finding Counters a bit spare in this ME myself, they don't occur as much as they did in FM21

[Wrap God]

As I myself am struggling to construct a consistently working, solid defensively, counter-attacking system in this year's FM (haven't had any issues last two editions) I'm also interested in hearing what other suggestions people may have.

 

Regarding your roles and duties I don'see any glaring issues. Maybe try switching one of the defenders to a BPD since you are playing without a PM. Maybe add some PI's to one of the CM's to take more risks and more direct passing instead.

Lower defensive line from my personal experience is just asking for trouble. From what I've seen in the match engine it's just too deep. Your team will have to practically the entire length of the pitch to work through after recovering the ball.

 

But as I said at the beginning, I'm also struggling with counter attacking setups this year

[Harpoon76]

Sorry, I should say this is still FM21!

[Johnny Ace]

2 minutes ago, Harpoon76 said:

Sorry, I should say this is still FM21!

It should Counter just fine then

[_mxrky]

I would move your d line up one notch. You may be dropping too deep

[Wrap God]

18 minutes ago, Harpoon76 said:

Sorry, I should say this is still FM21!

Yeah, as Johnny said already - it should work fine. I used a very similar setup myself as Wrexham in FM21.

Try bumping your DL to Standard to be more compact and do not invite too much pressure. If your defenders are slow and you are afraid they might be exposed by balls over the top you can try setting one of them to cover.

[fraudiola]

i personally think you should always go with attacking mentality in FM if you want to play on the counter. also with a lone striker on support you'll find yourself without an option for an outball as support strikers drop to help out on defense. play out of defense is something i would avoid on a counter attacking side because you want to move the ball from the back to the front asap before the opposition players are back in their positions. as others stated, bump DL up to standard. leave pressing on default or you might be too aggressive in trying to win the ball back, leaving too much space for better sides to play through. the mainstay of all my counter sides is a nice pacey advanced forward preferably with good dribbling. TM is definitely my favorite partner for an AF but AM/a also works well, play around with the AF+TM/AM combos. if you have a proper TM or even a strong CB capable of winning headers i'd suggest setting them to attack near post on all set pieces and aim all set pieces at near post, you can rack up at the very least 10 goals a season just like that. 

 

heres what i ran for a majority of FM21, long balls were way over powered (still is), basically over-achieved with every side as long as my AF was pacey and my TM was reliable at winning headers. 

 

this is what im currently running in FM22. only 6 games in but it feels exploitive, won every game by a large margin against mostly bigger sides. might work in FM21 too? 

[Jack722]

Never understood why so many people try playing on the counter by closing down more and using attacking mentality.

It's really not that hard. The cautious mentality is literally designed for playing on the counter, and you can't hold your shape and absorb pressure when your players are rushing out to close down like headless chickens.

I've made really successful counter tactics by using cautious, close down less, (sometimes) drop deeper + drop loe, using a 442. It's honestly really simple, i think most people massively over complicate it.

[Wrap God]

@Jack722 The problem with lower mentalities (as discussed SO many times on this forum) is that it keeps your player playing very safe. Your players will refrain from taking risks and bombing forward and will prefer to recycle the ball. Hence all the problems with AI having often more than 50% possession when playing away from home.

Higher team mentality encourages the players to take more risk in possession and attempt risky passes, carry the ball forward etc.

If you watch football in real life that's exactly how counter attacking teams play - patient and compact without the ball, but if they win the ball back they transition immediately without passing the ball around in defensive third. They look to progress the ball as quickly as possible forward - and that's what higher mentalities in FM do.

I would say it is more a flaw of how Mnetalities are described/work in FM.

Cautious is suited to possession football more than quick counters as it tells your players to take time and do not take on unnecesary risks.

[Jack722]

53 minutes ago, Wrap God said:

@Jack722 The problem with lower mentalities (as discussed SO many times on this forum) is that it keeps your player playing very safe. Your players will refrain from taking risks and bombing forward and will prefer to recycle the ball. Hence all the problems with AI having often more than 50% possession when playing away from home.

Higher team mentality encourages the players to take more risk in possession and attempt risky passes, carry the ball forward etc.

If you watch football in real life that's exactly how counter attacking teams play - patient and compact without the ball, but if they win the ball back they transition immediately without passing the ball around in defensive third. They look to progress the ball as quickly as possible forward - and that's what higher mentalities in FM do.

I would say it is more a flaw of how Mnetalities are described/work in FM.

Cautious is suited to possession football more than quick counters as it tells your players to take time and do not take on unnecesary risks.

I get why youre saying that but transitions only make up like 10% of the game (that's an estimate)

I don't disagree that using an attacking mentality will lead to more counters. But there is a difference between Mourinho's Real Madrid and Klopp's Liverpool, to Hodgson's Crystal Palace. If you're a rubbish team that struggles for quality (Like in the OP) you want to keep things tight at the back, chill out when you're in possession to give your defenders a breather, and only look to score if there's a decent opportunity on the break, like a 3v3 or 4v3 or something. This is exactly what cautious mentality does. But if you're a big team with bags of pace and skill, you want to actively try and score when on the ball in settled possession, and transition immediately on the counter when the ball is won back, even if you're outnumbered 5v3, because you have faith that your players can take defenders on, run faster in behind the defence, and maybe score a long shot. If you have a **** team doing this, then you're going to be losing the ball in settled possession (as you're actively trying to score) and the extra, more ambitious, counters that you try to do (the ones that won't be triggered on cautious) likely won't succeed, and your counters will be countered.

[ta11zx]

1 hour ago, fraudiola said:

heres what i ran for a majority of FM21

what did you do to see the game out?  and what did you do when you really needed gols?

[fraudiola]

3 hours ago, Wrap God said:

Hence all the problems with AI having often more than 50% possession when playing away from home.

THIS! FM's mentalities are counter-intuitive

[fraudiola]

2 hours ago, ta11zx said:

what did you do to see the game out?  and what did you do when you really needed gols?

bring mentality down a notch, full waste time, regroup, hold shape, slow pace down, put a couple attack duties to support, maybe even lower DL & LOE. might not wanna do all of those at once, you could end up being too passive. 

those counter-attacking tactics aren't really suited for when youre behind. 

[engamohd]

On 19/11/2021 at 17:01, Harpoon76 said:

I wonder if the first place to start here is my expectations?

I'm trying a Dafuge challenge and I picked Tamworth.  Two seasons ago we managed to get promoted from the VNN to the VNL.  Last season we were one of the favourites to go straight back down but managed to finish 18th, 6 points clear of the bottom four.  We're utterly skint, are still semi-pro and with a low reputation mean recruitment is fighting for free transfers with all the other VNL/VNN teams in the same boat!  There's a "Favoured" board expectation to play counter-attacking football.

I did try the 4-4-1-1 counter last season but exasperated, went back to a 4-4-2 for a few matches which got us some crucial wins.  Looking at matches when starting as the 4-4-1-1, we generally got 45 to 50% possession.  Now, my expectation is that we're not living on the counter and have spells of possession where should be creating some sort of chances.  If we had just 30% possession, I could entirely understand that would be the brief foray up the pitch before ending up sat deep again.

Mentality: Positive.  Why Positive?  Well, I've read endless other forum posts and blogs.  Some, like the tactic creator, go with Cautious for counter.  Other examples I've found go with Positive.  I also thought Positive fitted in more with my idea that we're not just living on the counter.  At some point in most matches, we should have spells of possession and try to do something with it.

TIs: I thought @engamohd excellent thread on counter attacking (here) made sense.  As we're not the best team (my defenders are very quick), drop the DL and LOE to reduce space behind.  When we do press, press More Urgent to try to get the ball back and thus release a counter.  Hence in transition, I went with Counter and Distribute Quickly.  As we only have 1 striker on support, anything hoofed up the pitch is coming straight back at as, so I want to Play out of Defence.

Roles: I was trying an AM(A) at AMC.   However, I switched it up to a SS(A) and BBM(S) during the first match of the season to hopefully get a bit more bite.  Last season I also tried a CM(S) in midfield but wanted the BBM(S) to hopefully get further forward.

The season started well against Dag & Red.  It should have been 3-0 but my striker had a second penalty saved and then hit the post with the follow-up.  The match stat's for us were 7 shots, 4 OT (2.08 xG) and 49% possession.  D&R had 8 shots with 3 OT (0.38 xG).  A good result but we didn't have a single shot in the first half which is concerning (hence going from AM(A) to SS(A)).

My thinking was the Mansfield result was a freak / bad luck.  We had 12 shots, 7 OT and 0.96 xG.  Mansfield were 16 shots, 10 OT and 1.85 xG - their strikers rated 9.3 and 8.6, plus their GK got 7.5.  I thought my defence were way too lightweight but they took their chances.

My bigger concern is the Dulwich Hamlet match.  We created two-thirds of nothing:

Our first shot was in the 1st minute, then our 2nd and 3rd were in the 89th and 90th minute.

Are there a glaring errors in my tactic?  Am I expecting the wrong thing in that we can counter when the chance is presented but otherwise "be in the game"?

Firstly, I am glad you found my thread helpful!

Secondly, I can see, theoretically, 6 issues with your tactic:

1. You are playing in the VNL, the level of the players there lack the required mental attributes to absorb such sustained pressure.

2. You are too deep. Low DL is an overkill. I'd leave either the DL or the LOE on standard, preferably the DL.

3. Your strikers both seek chances, not create them. Thus, your attack will be disjointed. I prefer a AP/AM and DLF/TM combo

4. Your BBM roams from position, and this is an unwanted effect in a disciplined system, with 2 CMs. CM-S or DLP-S are better choices.

5. Your pressing is too aggressive. Positive mentality + Press Harder + no regroup is too risky imo. I'd add the Regroup shout to balance the high pressing instructions.

6. An attacking fullback will expose you, especially that they would most probably lack the physical and mental attributes. I'd rely on the wingers more than overlapping fullbacks. Perhaps a WB-S is a good balance.

Edited November 22, 2021 by engamohd

[Harpoon76]

Some very interesting points - thank you all.  Very thought provoking that counters attempted on Positive wouldn't be attempted on Cautious.

I had thought things were picking up well, especially when we won the three on bounce with the 4-0 nil win.  Then when we went back to hardly creating anything.  Chester properly pulled our pants down, though their last two goals came when we were trying to chase the game and leaving space at the back.  Chester are also professional.  That said, we didn't have a shot (on or off-target until 67 minutes).  I still want to counter when the a good opportunity is presented but we need to do more in "normal" possession.

3 hours ago, engamohd said:

Firstly, I am glad you found my thread helpful!

Secondly, I can see, theoretically, 6 issues with your tactic:

1. You are playing in the VNL, the level of the players there lack the required mental attributes to absorb such sustained pressure.

2. You are too deep. Low DL is an overkill. I'd leave either the DL or the LOE on standard, preferably the DL.

3. Your strikers both seek chances, not create them. Thus, your attack will be disjointed. I prefer a AP/AM and DLF/TM combo

4. Your BBM roams from position, and this is an unwanted effect in a disciplined system, with 2 CMs. CM-S or DLP-S are better choices.

5. Your pressing is too aggressive. Positive mentality + Press Harder + no regroup is too risky imo. I'd add the Regroup shout to balance the high pressing instructions.

6. An attacking fullback will expose you, especially that they would most probably lack the physical and mental attributes. I'd rely on the wingers more than overlapping fullbacks. Perhaps a WB-S is a good balance.

I think point 1 is very valid.  Another poster on this thread (sorry, can't find the comment) also said lower league players will just hoof the ball up the pitch (despite Play out of Defence) and watching segments of some matches on full, I've noticed defenders doing exactly that.  I'm therefore thinking dropping to Cautious would have a number of benefits.  Tempo is lowered to Slightly Lower, so gives players more time to think and hopefully might the right (or better!) decision.  Attacking Width would drop from Fairly Wide to Standard, bring players closer together so hopefully offer easier passing options and reduce interceptions.

The BBM I will change to CM(S) - I considered DLP(S) but that and the CM(D) both have hold position which sounds too static for supporting attacks.

[engamohd]

1 hour ago, Harpoon76 said:

Some very interesting points - thank you all.  Very thought provoking that counters attempted on Positive wouldn't be attempted on Cautious.

I had thought things were picking up well, especially when we won the three on bounce with the 4-0 nil win.  Then when we went back to hardly creating anything.  Chester properly pulled our pants down, though their last two goals came when we were trying to chase the game and leaving space at the back.  Chester are also professional.  That said, we didn't have a shot (on or off-target until 67 minutes).  I still want to counter when the a good opportunity is presented but we need to do more in "normal" possession.

I think point 1 is very valid.  Another poster on this thread (sorry, can't find the comment) also said lower league players will just hoof the ball up the pitch (despite Play out of Defence) and watching segments of some matches on full, I've noticed defenders doing exactly that.  I'm therefore thinking dropping to Cautious would have a number of benefits.  Tempo is lowered to Slightly Lower, so gives players more time to think and hopefully might the right (or better!) decision.  Attacking Width would drop from Fairly Wide to Standard, bring players closer together so hopefully offer easier passing options and reduce interceptions.

The BBM I will change to CM(S) - I considered DLP(S) but that and the CM(D) both have hold position which sounds too static for supporting attacks.

I would not worry a lot about support from midfield with a dlp, the hold position PI makes them just more considered when taking runs forward. You also have a dedicated AMC for that role.

[Harpoon76]

This game delights / puzzles / frustrates / annoys / <insert expletive here> you off in equal measures!

I really struggled to find an AMC last season, so moved to a 4-4-2 and we managed to finish 11th which was a massive over-achievement.  This season I've stuck with the 4-4-2 but it's not done very well at all.  We're still expected to battle against relegation but I'd managed to keep the squad together and also got a new Poacher to hopefully convert more chances.

 

The two wins at the start of October were really pleasing.  We came from behind in both to take points off a fellow struggler (Scarborough) and a playoff team (Carlisle).  Here's our primary tactic:

I'd spent some time looking at the negatives and decided:

• We've given away more penalties than any other team in the league, so turned on "Stay On Feet"  (that's the old "Ease of Tackling" right?) to hopefully reduce pushes and stupid tackles in the box
• Long range shots keep suckering us (the ability of non-league players to keep lashing in 25 yard screamers does make me question the realism but hey-ho!).  A look just now shows we've conceded 6 goals from outside the box in our last five matches.  Thus I pushed the DL up a notch
• We give the ball away with poor passes too often, or just punt it up the pitch to nobody, so I dropped the width to narrow to try to bring the players closer and reduce the risk of passing
• My FBs were flagged as losing possession a lot, so the left FB has "Pass it shorter" and "Take fewer risks".  The right FB has "Pass it Shorter". Likewise my starting CM(D) is a good tackler but terrible passer, so also has "Pass it Shorter" and "Take fewer risks"
• Both players I use at IW(S) seems to rate really poorly - 6.2 to 6.5 seems very common but I'm struggling to figure out why they get rated so bad.

The next match was against fellow strugglers Ebbsfleet.  They lined up with a back 3, WBs and then two CMs, an AMC and two strikers.  Difficult to face with a 4-4-2 as they have 3 vs 2 at the back against my strikers and overload the middle.  My hope was the use the wings and outnumber their WBs.  However, we got utterly spanked 5-0.

Two minutes in they played straight through my higher DL but hit the post.  That's the risk of the higher DL so I kept it set.  Fast forward to 25 minutes and a cross field ball finds their AMC on the left on my area.  He takes a touch and smashes a 25 yarder across the box and into the net.  That was really frustrating given my higher DL had already been exposed and it was meant to deal with the long range screamers.  Thus I decided to drop back to a normal DL.  I made the change but before it's gone through, a punt from the centre spot goes over my CBs who are busy debating what to have for tea and I'm 2-0 down.  Sixty-eight minutes in Ebbsfleet get a free kick in the D... which gets curled round the wall for 3-0. 

By this time, Ebbsfleet have 5 players on yellow cards, so I decided to turn off "Stay On Feet".  Couple of minutes later... we give away a penalty for a push in the box  To finish the kicking, their WB ran onto a blocked shot and hit a first time "worldie" in from 25 years - almost the same spot as the first goal.

Anyway, comments welcome on my tactic.  Is there anything more I can do against the 25 yard screamers?