Struggling to finding out the problem

[CKBrahMa]

Hey !

 

TL;DR

- I don't get why i'm struggling that much (strickers not scoring, creators not creating chances)

- My solutions are at the end. Mostly : getting Partey as a Mez-a, Odegaard as a AP-s and Tierney as a WB-a

I'm playing Arsenal, S2. Manage to finish 4th in PL last season, so i got some money and bought some players (like Isak, Zapata). I also tried to have a core system, more modern than my 442 (home)/3412(away) of last season. I wanna play with a 352/3412, inspired by Conte (high pressing, back 3, good passing plays). I stop trying counter-press as my team isn't agressive enough (below average : 16th in PL). As an example, i wanted Zapata to be like Lukaku and Isak the goal scorer. But, it isn't going well, and i'm struggling to get what's wrong... Here some screenshots :

This is my current tactic. I tried to tweak it (Partey as a Carrilero, Zapata as a Target Man, Kondogbia as a DLP-d ; higher tempo/lower tempo, play wider or narrower, different focus plays) and so on.

See some analytics from the Data hub :

 

So, from the last 5 games, i can see that the two mains issues are :

- loosing possession on the left side of the pitch. Must be the consequence of the CWB's lack of options

- lack of final third entries by the central zone. Tbh, i dont get why, because most of my players are in the central area...

 

As we can see, Isak is more of the goal scorer while Zapata is the creator. They both are doing OK without being beast. However, Isak only as 2 goals scored (one being a penalty). On the other hand, i feel i'm miss-using Zapata...

 

One of the issue here is clearly Odegaard. I guess he's being find in hard position without having good solutions or options. The pro's for him is his 2 goals scored.

 Here, I see that my defenders actually are doing a great job on the defensive side.

However, my wingbacks struggles to :

- have options to pass the ball, and when they have one, it's difficult.

- be real goal creators.

 

Other analytics show me that most of my key passes are from the side of the box (highly with crosses). Even if my shots are from a good angle (inside the box, central area), I get that my strikers are in an odd situations to score (with the head maybe ?).

 

What I want to tweak now :

- Putting Odegaard as a AP-s and Partey as a Mez-a

- Putting Tierney as a WB-s

- Turning up the tempo a bit

 

Howerver, i feel i'm missing something...

What are your ideas please ?

[Sharkn20]

Unclick focus on the left / right, why do u have that? You have 2 players on the flanks vs 5 in the middle.

You have too many players congested in the same area of the field, is impossible to make runs like that. Re-think your tactic. Make the defense to get out of possesion instead of just parking the bus against You and hitting at the break. Get someone to go outside - in, instead of everyone in - in.

2 WCB is a suicide, you basically have no cover at the back flanks while you are in attacking phase.

Do You want to Counter? Or Work the ball in the box? Think about it, you want them to Couter, then work the ball in the box while the other team gets in defensive position? Non-sense.

The ME will counter automatically if there is an opportunity for that, don't need to force it.

Are the players at the back tall and strong to win balls consistently when their GK kicks long? Otherwise why you have prevent short passing by GK?

Edited November 23, 2021 by Sharkn20

[(sic)]

49 minutes ago, CKBrahMa said:

lack of final third entries by the central zone. Tbh, i dont get why, because most of my players are in the central area...

I wouldn't worry about this, as it is an issue with the game, no matter what tactic you use it's always gonna say that. Having focus play on flanks doesn't help it either.

[CKBrahMa]

il y a 12 minutes, Sharkn20 a dit :

Unclick focus on the left / right, why do u have that? You have 2 players on the flanks vs 5 in the middle.

You have too many players congested in the same area of the field, is impossible to make runs like that. Re-think your tactic. Make the defense to get out of possesion instead of just parking the bus against You and hitting at the break. Get someone to go outside - in, instead of everyone in - in.

2 WCB is a suicide, you basically have no cover at the back flanks while you are in attacking phase.

Do You want to Counter? Or Work the ball in the box? Think about it, you want them to Couter, then work the ball in the box while the other team gets in defensive position? Non-sense.

The ME will counter automatically if there is an opportunity for that, don't need to force it.

Are the players at the back tall and strong to win balls consistently when their GK kicks long? Otherwise why you have prevent short passing by GK?

First of all, thanks for your answer

As I said, I tweaked a lot, so here are some answers :

"Unclick focus on the left / right, why do u have that? You have 2 players on the flanks vs 5 in the middle." I had "focus on the middle" or nothing at all. I though that, by having focus plays on wing, it would creates some space in central area so Isak could be alone/have more space to run

"You have too many players congested in the same area of the field, is impossible to make runs like that. Re-think your tactic. Make the defense to get out of possesion instead of just parking the bus against You and hitting at the break. Get someone to go outside - in, instead of everyone in - in" Ok, i get the idea. But, it seems like you're talking about IW/IF/IWB, am I right ? If not, can you be more specific or giving some ideas pls ?

"2 WCB is a suicide, you basically have no cover at the back flanks while you are in attacking phase." you're suggesting to have the WCB with the WB-s, as there is no need to have more support on the left ?

"Do You want to Counter? Or Work the ball in the box? Think about it, you want them to Couter, then work the ball in the box while the other team gets in defensive position? Non-sense." It was an error from a tweak. At first, i was looking for counter pressing/hold position (so, with work ball in the box). I stopped counter press as my team is not agressive enough.

"Are the players at the back tall and strong to win balls consistently when their GK kicks long? Otherwise why you have prevent short passing by GK?" As you can see on the analytics, yes, they're pretty good

[Sharkn20]

26 minutes ago, CKBrahMa said:

First of all, thanks for your answer

As I said, I tweaked a lot, so here are some answers :

"Unclick focus on the left / right, why do u have that? You have 2 players on the flanks vs 5 in the middle." I had "focus on the middle" or nothing at all. I though that, by having focus plays on wing, it would creates some space in central area so Isak could be alone/have more space to run

"You have too many players congested in the same area of the field, is impossible to make runs like that. Re-think your tactic. Make the defense to get out of possesion instead of just parking the bus against You and hitting at the break. Get someone to go outside - in, instead of everyone in - in" Ok, i get the idea. But, it seems like you're talking about IW/IF/IWB, am I right ? If not, can you be more specific or giving some ideas pls ?

"2 WCB is a suicide, you basically have no cover at the back flanks while you are in attacking phase." you're suggesting to have the WCB with the WB-s, as there is no need to have more support on the left ?

"Do You want to Counter? Or Work the ball in the box? Think about it, you want them to Couter, then work the ball in the box while the other team gets in defensive position? Non-sense." It was an error from a tweak. At first, i was looking for counter pressing/hold position (so, with work ball in the box). I stopped counter press as my team is not agressive enough.

"Are the players at the back tall and strong to win balls consistently when their GK kicks long? Otherwise why you have prevent short passing by GK?" As you can see on the analytics, yes, they're pretty good

You are correct, forcing the play to the wings will create more space in the middle, but still the combination of roles you have is pretty static and the WBs won't be able to find anyone with the crosses, specially when they go low, and is almost no room for through passes in the middle.

I consider one IF / IW pretty much critical in any formation to provide that run in option from outside, so you can definitely consider that, however that means that you will have to change your shape, I would take one of the strikers out, as a IF / IW - At with sit narrower will do the trick as a 2nd striker also. With less congestion in the middle.

Always think the WCB as triangle creators, if any would have to be the right one as you have the BBM / WB / DLF to create triangles on the left already.

How much mobility your AP-At offers? Does it interfere with the DLF-Su? Might be worth to take that DLF-Su out of there or to move the AP-At to the AM centre-right position. My experience is if you want a #10 you have to give them plenty space to operate. And he is pretty much stuck between lines with just the space between the BWM and AF to operate, so you better make the most of it. I prefer the AP-At in the midfield strata as it has A LOT more room to dance.

I hope this give You some ideas for the next version of the tactic.

 

I play a 433 DM and I have plenty run ins through the middle, slaloms outside - inside, centres from the flanks or shoots from the edge of the area. Is about how you setup your roles. Just make sure that not all the players end in the same spots during the attacking phase and you have different options in each side of the pitch.

Edited November 23, 2021 by Sharkn20

[CKBrahMa]

il y a 11 minutes, Sharkn20 a dit :

You are correct, forcing the play to the wings will create more space in the middle, but still the combination of roles you have is pretty static and the WBs won't be able to find anyone with the crosses, specially when they go low, and is almost no room for through passes in the middle.

I consider one IF / IW pretty much critical in any formation to provide that run in option from outside, so you can definitely consider that, however that means that you will have to change your shape, I would take one of the strikers out, as a IF / IW - At with sit narrower will do the trick as a 2nd striker also. With less congestion in the middle.

Always think the WCB as triangle creators, if any would have to be the right one as you have the BBM / WB / DLF to create triangles on the left already.

How much mobility your AP-At offers? Does it interfere with the DLF-Su? Might be worth to take that DLF-Su out of there or to move the AP-At to the AM centre-right position. My experience is if you want a #10 you have to give them plenty space to operate. And he is pretty much stuck between lines with just the space between the BWM and AF to operate, so you better make the most of it. I prefer the AP-At in the midfield strata as it has A LOT more room to dance.

I hope this give You some ideas for the next version of the tactic.

 

I play a 433 DM and I have plenty run ins through the middle, slaloms outside - inside, centres from the flanks or shoots from the edge of the area. Is about how you setup your roles. Just make sure that not all the players end in the same spots during the attacking phase and you have different options in each side of the pitch.

Does it look better now ? Should I say to Isak to shoot less often as he has poor long shot (9) ?

 

[Sharkn20]

1 hour ago, CKBrahMa said:

Does it look better now ? Should I say to Isak to shoot less often as he has poor long shot (9) ?

 

I'd set Zapata as AF-At and the left CB into WCB-Su with the right CB into a BPD instead.

Bellerin as WB-At. Give it a go, see how it works and you can feedback the results.

[CKBrahMa]

il y a 36 minutes, Sharkn20 a dit :

I'd set Zapata as AF-At and the left CB into WCB-Su with the right CB into a BPD instead.

Bellerin as WB-At. Give it a go, see how it works and you can feedback the results.

I simed a bit your suggestions : defensively, i'm a bit stronger. However, on the attack side, it was way more worse : fewer shots, and way more fewer shots on target... I'm going to try to put Odegaard as an AP on the left-flank, pretty much like in real life

[Sharkn20]

3 minutes ago, CKBrahMa said:

I simed a bit your suggestions : defensively, i'm a bit stronger. However, on the attack side, it was way more worse : fewer shots, and way more fewer shots on target... I'm going to try to put Odegaard as an AP on the left-flank, pretty much like in real life

Still an odd shape, I don't think for a top of the league team you should be playing with a back 5, you can achieve pretty much a 414 shape in defense with other offensive shape.

I have a 433 DM Wide, which changes to 2-1-2-5 in attack and 4-1-4 in defense.

Edited November 23, 2021 by Sharkn20

[CKBrahMa]

il y a 25 minutes, Sharkn20 a dit :

Still an odd shape, I don't think for a top of the league team you should be playing with a back 5, you can achieve pretty much a 414 shape in defense with other offensive shape.

I have a 433 DM Wide, which changes to 2-1-2-5 in attack and 4-1-4 in defense.

This odd shape is pretty much how France is currently playing, and actually, Conte does play like this 352/3421

If you take a look at Chelsea, they're playing with a back 5. PSG did sign Ramos to may have a back 5.

 

Or, you're suggesting to put my WB higher, more like winger, and to have my back 3 + my BWM-d to def counter attacks ?

 

[Jaye]

5 hours ago, Sharkn20 said:

2 WCB is a suicide, you basically have no cover at the back flanks while you are in attacking phase.

The WCBs don't attack at the same time. They attack like a pendulum. The ball-side WCB will attack, while the other one stays in his position and only goes forward when the ball is switched to the other side. So it's not suicide at all.

Besides, he has one WCB on defend duty. They hang deeper and play like a deep pivot, rather than overlap/underlap.

2 hours ago, Sharkn20 said:

Still an odd shape, I don't think for a top of the league team you should be playing with a back 5, you can achieve pretty much a 414 shape in defense with other offensive shape.

Back five is perfectly fine for a top team, especially now the WCB role exists. It can sustain pressure and carve teams open through the centre with the right set-up.

5 hours ago, CKBrahMa said:

- I don't get why i'm struggling that much (strickers not scoring, creators not creating chances)

5 hours ago, CKBrahMa said:

I stop trying counter-press as my team isn't agressive enough (below average : 16th in PL).

These two things are probably related. 

Using regroup means your team is funnelling into a back five. In a narrow shape, this hurts your chance creation because your two most important outlets, the wing-backs, are too busy defending. You end up depending on the strikers and AM to hold the ball up so players can get up the pitch. 

Aggression isn't required for counter-pressing. Work Rate, Stamina, Anticipation, Concentration and Decisions are more important. If your team has all that, they can afford to counter-press.

Personally, I wouldn't use Work Ball Into Box all the time. Defensive teams will enjoy having the ball played in front of them, nor does it benefit your strikes much. Strikers benefit from early service. Zapata for instance is powerful in the air, and it'd be a waste not to use that.

Finally, the APa is a good role, but he's one that shines when he has runners in front of him to find. In both versions of your tactic, he only has one.

Edited November 23, 2021 by Jaye

[CKBrahMa]

Il y a 3 heures, Jaye a dit :

The WCBs don't attack at the same time. They attack like a pendulum. The ball-side WCB will attack, while the other one stays in his position and only goes forward when the ball is switched to the other side. So it's not suicide at all.

Besides, he has one WCB on defend duty. They hang deeper and play like a deep pivot, rather than overlap/underlap.

That's what I thought. I think i'm going back with my 2 WCB (one on def, one on support maybe)

 

Il y a 3 heures, Jaye a dit :

These two things are probably related. 

Using regroup means your team is funnelling into a back five. In a narrow shape, this hurts your chance creation because your two most important outlets, the wing-backs, are too busy defending. You end up depending on the strikers and AM to hold the ball up so players can get up the pitch. 

Aggression isn't required for counter-pressing. Work Rate, Stamina, Anticipation, Concentration and Decisions are more important. If your team has all that, they can afford to counter-press.

Personally, I wouldn't use Work Ball Into Box all the time. Defensive teams will enjoy having the ball played in front of them, nor does it benefit your strikes much. Strikers benefit from early service. Zapata for instance is powerful in the air, and it'd be a waste not to use that.

Finally, the APa is a good role, but he's one that shines when he has runners in front of him to find. In both versions of your tactic, he only has one.

Oh, I thought agression was important (I think Bust the Net said it, or i saw it on a guide). My team as the 2nd highest team play (which is also important for counter press). 6th on the league for decision and anticipation, but they're kinda low for the rest... Should I go for regroup (and saying goodbye to a back 3 or using wingers with my WB ?) or let it untick ?

You would suggest me to untick "Work ball in the Box" as I have decent strikers ? Won't they try to shot from long distance (which is not what i want as they have poor long shots attributes) ?

I agree for the AP-a. However, I'm "afraid" that telling both my strikers to go on attack duty will cut the team too much, forcing long balls and pray. If you agree, how can I use Odegaard ? If i have a striker and 2 wingers (IF/IW), would that be ok ?

[Jaye]

14 hours ago, CKBrahMa said:

Oh, I thought agression was important (I think Bust the Net said it, or i saw it on a guide). My team as the 2nd highest team play (which is also important for counter press). 6th on the league for decision and anticipation, but they're kinda low for the rest... Should I go for regroup (and saying goodbye to a back 3 or using wingers with my WB ?) or let it untick ?

Aggression is useful, but intelligence is more important. Leaving it unticked is a good choice if you're unsure. Alternatively, you can counter-press weaker teams but leave it unticked against stronger sides who have the ability to play through you. 

Regroup is useful when you want to play more defensively and use counter-attacks more. You can use it in tough games, or when you want to close a game out and your team is too tired to keep pressing. But if I'm playing a good team, I wouldn't use it in every game, especially if I'm playing a bottom heavy shape, because there's a chance we'll get penned in our own half.

14 hours ago, CKBrahMa said:

You would suggest me to untick "Work ball in the Box" as I have decent strikers ? Won't they try to shot from long distance (which is not what i want as they have poor long shots attributes) ?

They'll take long-shots if they don't have good options for a pass or dribble. If you untick it and find they're shooting from distance too much, then the problem will lie in your roles and duties. 

14 hours ago, CKBrahMa said:

I agree for the AP-a. However, I'm "afraid" that telling both my strikers to go on attack duty will cut the team too much, forcing long balls and pray. If you agree, how can I use Odegaard ? If i have a striker and 2 wingers (IF/IW), would that be ok ?

If you're playing the the AM-ST-ST set-up, you shouldn't have a problem because the AM is there to knit the team together. Even on attack duty, roles such as the AP, DLF, CF, Treq and TF are designed to drop deep and look for space; they just won't drop as deep as they would on support, and will stay higher up the pitch when you're defending.

[CKBrahMa]

I'm getting so frustrated. I don't get why i can't create chances. It is like its unplayable. I change my tactics, change the formation. It looks like my player can't play i'm going to destoy my keyboard

[Sharkn20]

1 hour ago, CKBrahMa said:

I'm getting so frustrated. I don't get why i can't create chances. It is like its unplayable. I change my tactics, change the formation. It looks like my player can't play i'm going to destoy my keyboard

Everytime you move your tactic, the tactical understanding of the players (a.k.a. the green bar) decreases, hence they won't play to their full potential until the get used to it again.

[Andros]

Hi @CKBrahMa, I am not a tactical expert, but I wonder if the problem is your central midfield?  If I was to visualize where your players might be after controlling the ball for a period of time (not during the transition, but trying to find a hole in the opposition) then there is potential for 7 players to be all in the box, near it or on the byline.  For example, both of the WBs might be at the byline looking to cross, the AF is heading to goal, the AP and DLF might be on the edge of or in the box, and possibly the BBM has pushed forward and the BWM might have closed someone down as is also in the box.  The result of this is not only the 7 players crowding the box, but also all the opposition players too.  That could prove impossible for the players to find gaps.   

 

So, try pausing the game (multiple times) whilst you have the ball near the box and see where all your players are.  Can you see a way to goal? Is it too congested?  If yes, then where are the spaces on the field?  Where can I put someone that can draw people out? Where can I put someone where they can have time to pick out someone?  or even do I have an amazing dribbler that can take people on and pull people out of position, causing space for others?

 

Like I said, I am not expert, but consider having a look and maybe you can find solutions that work for your team.

 

EDIT:

I also just had another look at your team instructions.  I wonder if what I wrote above is made worse by what seems to be a patient build up and play narrow.  The opposition will have time to crowd out the box and there will be a lot of bodies there.  Perhaps your only space is on the wings, and as you have the work ball into the box instruction, they are not willing to ping in crosses (which would probably be to a crowded box anyway).

 

So one idea would be to go to some games you have completed and consider watching them in full (or like 20 minutes of them) to see what is happening. Maybe you can spot something.  Then maybe save your game, and for the next game - play the same game multiple times (watching in full or at least a large portion of it) and make a change each time to see how this impacts your team. 

Edited November 26, 2021 by Andros

[CKBrahMa]

Hey !

Sorry for not answering for some days !

I did change à bit my tactic, repositionning Odegaard as a Mez-At, Tierney as a WB-s. I get rid off the BWM and put a Roaming playmaker at thé DM strata ! It works like a charm !!

I’ll put some screenshots very soon

[CKBrahMa]

Hey,

As i promised, here are some screenshots and results :

 

Here are my results since i changed my tactic ! 13 goals against for 53 goals scored over 16 games !

I'm still struggling away (maybe more defence side rather than the offensive side).

[Sharkn20]

21 hours ago, CKBrahMa said:

Hey,

As i promised, here are some screenshots and results :

 

Here are my results since i changed my tactic ! 13 goals against for 53 goals scored over 16 games !

I'm still struggling away (maybe more defence side rather than the offensive side).

This looks much better. I suggest You start getting depth players / promising youngsters to rotate your starters, they are all jaded, as the season moves forward they will start getting injured.

[CKBrahMa]

Hey, don't worry, i took the screenshot just after a game, but I have quality players to rotate with

[Sharkn20]

51 minutes ago, CKBrahMa said:

Hey, don't worry, i took the screenshot just after a game, but I have quality players to rotate with

When they show the "rest" tag after a game means that they are Waaaayy over used. So you might want to actually start rotating them then. It is helpful to have a "fatigue" column in the Tactics screen to prompt You with this. Players with low or worst fatigue perform worst in games and their injury risk shoots through the roof.

Edited December 1, 2021 by Sharkn20

[CKBrahMa]

il y a 59 minutes, Sharkn20 a dit :

When they show the "rest" tag after a game means that they are Waaaayy over used. So you might want to actually start rotating them then. It is helpful to have a "fatigue" column in the Tactics screen to prompt You with this. Players with low or worst fatigue perform worst in games and their injury risk shoots through the roof.

Its because I rest them before World cup, not because they're tired (I always rest them before they're at this level of fatigue, dw)