Employing defensive approach and holding on to winning score

[tylerB]

I have a tactic. Pretty good one, but rather intense, players get tired. So now, playing in elite league after promotion, I needed to find a way to drop back and to hold on to winning score, say, until half-time break. To recharge. So I created another tactic. Defensive one, My team is like 70-80% familiar with it according to the bar. But the moment I switch to it, something strange starts to happen. My opponent (not a good team), that was absolutely nowhere to be seen, suddenely starts playing like Bayern. Like there is literally not a pause between highlights. They create chance after chance after chance and eventually score not once, but twice or even three times. In space of 10-15 minutes! They score crazy long shots, they score from set pieces, they score from possesion play. Easily. Like my team is not there. Again, they are nowhere to be seen until I switch.

Even if my defensive tactic is flawed, even if my defenders are not that good, I still keep my whole team behind ball. In a classic defensive formation. That alone should be enough to create problems for their attackers. Attackers that are not elite, I am not talking about playing top teams. But no, they have absolutely no problem with breaking my walls. And it happens almost every time.

I'd be very grateful if someone explains to me what is this with these magical resurecctions and crazy comebacks. Because frankly it looks like the game's trying to make a point. Like "we don't encourage defensive approach and we will punish you if you switch". It happens visa versa by the way. If my opponent takes foot off gas, I am almost certain that I will at least equalize the score. Even if I barely had one shot on target before.

So please, Some explainatins would be nice. And I really hope to not hear something like "switch your full-back to defend".

 

Edited December 2, 2021 by tylerB

[Andrew Marines]

You didn't share the tactic so this is gonna be a generic comment of what could happen:

1. Your players are leaving too much space to the opponents;
2. Your players can't handle that kinda pressure;
3. The tactic is not that good.

Obv could be other things but i think these are the things you should check before going on with your season.

[fraudiola]

there is no "defensive approach" to hold on to leads, you just keep pressing and that's it. 

but seriously, every time i take off the throttle near the end of a match to try and preserve some energy the other team just starts to dominate, even when we're the far better team. in my experience, trying to play pure defensive football where you want to hold a lead or something is a very bad idea in FM but playing defensive yet counter attacking on the other hand is very effective. 

[CKBrahMa]

As someone said, it is hard to help you without screenshot, tactic or data.

A common mistake when trying to hold a score is to lower too much the intensity. As an example, if you have regroup AND hold shape (and not counter), you’re saying to your team to stop moving with and without the ball, which is the perfect scenario for a team which tries to catch up !

A defensive tactic doesn’t mean a low intensity tactic (look at IRL Atletico Madrid, especially in the previous seasons)

[tylerB]

3 hours ago, fraudiola said:

but seriously, every time i take off the throttle near the end of a match to try and preserve some energy the other team just starts to dominate

That's the point! I want them to dominate. I give up the ball and the territory. But dominating doesn't equal creating many chances. Dominating doesn't mean that your long shots suddenely start to go in. You don't get super powers just because your opponent decided to park the bus. And yet this is exactly what's happening. Yeah, with this approach over time set pieces would start piling up and eventually you can very well concede. That would be 100% understandable. But I am talking about ten minutes! Ten minutes at the end of each half. I usually employ this on minute 35 in the first half and minute 80 in the second if I am okay with the score. 

 

2 hours ago, CKBrahMa said:

As an example, if you have regroup AND hold shape (and not counter), you’re saying to your team to stop moving with and without the ball, which is the perfect scenario for a team which tries to catch up !

Regroup when the ball is lost, counter when the ball is won. Exactly like in default "park the bus" style. 

Edited December 2, 2021 by tylerB

[Lesterfan_Cambiasso]

I think the best way to "hold a lead" in a passive way, is to go into a 4-4-2 type block shape.

You dont need to move the mentality down too much. Balanced works just fine. But you might want to use the "regroup" instruction just to ensure your players recover their defensive shape quickly.

I then look to counter the specific threats with marking and pressing. Ive detailed it in a previous thread here. If the opposition is going with 4231 and a midfield double pivot for example, i will look to bring the 2 strikers back to press the double pivot whilst the rest of the team holds its shape.

A good thing to do when retreating as well, is used an advanced forward who can run onto through balls. I think its always good to use such a player in conjuction with a ball playing defender, or a midfielder willing to make risky passes, as the ball over the top/through ball can be an ideal weapon with a pacey advanced forward.

Playing for set pieces can also be a way of slowing the game down, as can tackling hard, and making fouls (use this selectively of course)

[Robson 07]

13 hours ago, tylerB said:

But the moment I switch to it, something strange starts to happen.

To help people will need to know what you are switching from and to.  Are you keeping the same formation, similar roles, what instructions are changing?  Etc.  There are so many permutations here it's almost impossible to give meaningful advice with you providing additional background and description.

[CARRERA]

Throwing over your whole tactic is usually a bad idea. So to be effective in saving energy is to keep your overall concept, but take off some risks or intense elements. For example, switch to shorter passing so your players focusing on playing safe, lower the tempo to make more thoughtful decisions and play less intense. Switch up your in transition instructions to none or more conservative ones. Drop lines slightly and lower the amount of pressing triggers.

Falling back into a super low block with a defensive mentality doesn’t work and it doesn’t make sense in many ways. 

 

 

[tylerB]

22 hours ago, Robson 07 said:

To help people will need to know what you are switching from and to. 

I switch from balanced pressing play to "park the bus".

 

12 hours ago, CARRERA said:

Falling back into a super low block with a defensive mentality doesn’t work and it doesn’t make sense in many ways. 

It makes perfect sense. It is ABC of managing below average struggling teams: if you are lucky to score - drop back and defend it. Defend in numbers. Hold your ground. This is what you can see IRL every weekend. In any league. Anything other then a low block will make you vulnerable. That's why managers IRL do that. Because it works. Not always, but works. Even if you eventually lose, it is at least not by four or five goals. And IRL low block gives a struggling team a much better chance to grab a point, then chasing opponent players all over the field. How many times did we hear managers complaining that their opponent parked the bus and didn't want to actually play. And it pisses me off that the game doesn't reflect that. You drop back and you like making a gift to your opponent. It is not a gift. Like at all. No manager IRL likes to play against a low block.

Edited December 3, 2021 by tylerB

[CARRERA]

19 minutes ago, tylerB said:

I switch from balanced pressing play to "park the bus".

 

It makes perfect sense. It is ABC of managing below average struggling teams: if you are lucky to score - drop back and defend it. Defend in numbers. Hold your ground. This is what you can see IRL every weekend. In any league. Anything other then a low block will make you vulnerable. That's why managers IRL do that. Because it works. Not always, but works. Even if you eventually lose, it is at least not by four or five goals. And IRL low block gives a struggling team a much better chance to grab a point, then chasing opponent players all over the field. How many times did we hear managers complaining that their opponent parked the bus and didn't want to actually play. And it pisses me off that the game doesn't reflect that. You drop back and you like making a gift to your opponent. It is not a gift. Like at all. No manager IRL likes to play against a low block.

 Sorry maybe my answer was misleading. I meant in football manager terms it doesn’t make sense as a low mentality already comes with a low block and passive defending. So lowering those settings even more will over so it.

generally of course parking the bus is a common strategic choice

[Johnny Ace]

It's finding the balance

Park the Bus invites pressure, it's an extreme tactic 

Best way is to just tone down your current successful tactic, some things to try: 

- Switch some A duties to S

- Lower the Tempo

- Decrease the pressing 

- Waste time

- Dribble less

Just try one or two of those to conserve energy & keep the scoreline steady 

Shifting down the mentality & using park the bus style instructions is a massive shift, especially if the other team is trying to claw a few goals back 

[Lesterfan_Cambiasso]

Just now, Johnny Ace said:

It's finding the balance

Park the Bus invites pressure, it's an extreme tactic 

Best way is to just tone down your current successful tactic, some things to try: 

- Switch some A duties to S

- Lower the Tempo

- Decrease the pressing 

- Waste time

- Dribble less

Just try one or two of those to conserve energy & keep the scoreline steady 

Shifting down the mentality & using park the bus style instructions is a massive shift, especially if the other team is trying to claw a few goals back 

And on that point, remember that the opposition if chasing the game will be over committing men forwards. So you still need to think about how you can exploit the space left behind.

An all out defence tactic is bound to concede eventually. You have to same some sort of attacking outlet.

[tylerB]

1 hour ago, CARRERA said:

I meant in football manager terms it doesn’t make sense as a low mentality already comes with a low block and passive defending.

Then what's the point of having it in football manager in the first place? One of the first things you have to do in the game is to create a tactic. And right there in the tactic creator among other mentalities you can choose "park the bus". With all the required tuning (press less, lower tempo) already there by default. Why is it in the game if all it does is creating the opposite effect of what you are going for? 

 

1 hour ago, Johnny Ace said:

Best way is to just tone down your current successful tactic

I thought they give you three tactics for a reason. So that you don't pause the game for playing with bars and simply order you team to switch to tactics #3. Or #2, depending on whether you are winning or losing. Now I know that if you do that all opposition instructions set in the beginning will dissappear and players will be unmarked again. Learned it the hard way. Also a very helpful feature.

Edited December 3, 2021 by tylerB

[Robson 07]

1 hour ago, tylerB said:

I switch from balanced pressing play to "park the bus".

And you are doing that by just changing the tactical style or by using another tactic?  Any tactic based on a defensive mentality must usea  suitably defensive formation.  A 4231 for example, might be great for pressing but would be inefficient for a defensive purposes. You would need to get out of that 4231 setup, just flipping to Park The Bus TI's alone would not work. 

[afailed10]

It's all about knowing your opponent's strengths and weaknesses as well as your own.

Last year's Inter with their 352 and Lukako were a nightmare to play against if you allowed them space to cross by sitting deep. Their 3 men midfield would also get plenty of chances to win the 2nd ball and score from just outside the area. So the solution could be to nullify their midfield by pressing high and thus forcing direct balls from the defenders from deep. This would isolate their 3 main stratas and render them practically useless.

Against PSG's 433 with Neymar, Mbappe and the likes they usually have very low work rate on the wings so you could expose them with attacking full backs and overloading the flanks. You could the minimize their threat by forcing wide players to dead ends or even by inviting early crosses to the area if the forward wasn't that dangerous in the air.

Naturally you have to pay attention to when you have the ball. Where are you losing it and if you need to reenforce a certain area of the pitch with another player, perhaps a more defensive formation, or instead more presence upfield. It all depends on what is happening.

[Prepper_Jack]

I'll lend support to what some others have said here. Tactical styles with a low or very low defensive line are really intended to be used with a counter attacking team. Without a very solid defense in terms of tackling or marking, all you are doing is inviting the opposition to be next to your goal. This is bad, particularly if your objective is to lower your tackling intensity and rest. 

If you want to reduce the impact on your players once you are in control of a game, there's a few things you can do. Reducing the area you try to control is a big one. Instead of trying to control all the opposition half, go for a high block with much higher defensive line and much lower line of engagement. Slow your tempo down, and reduce passing distance. Turn on dribble less, and perhaps be more disciplined. Amp up time wasting.

Also, if you want to waste even more time, set each of your players to mark opposition positions (not necessarily tightly, unless the players have the skills), so that when they do get the ball, they are continually hampered in forward motion.. and that's great if it starts at the other end of the pitch from your goal line. With that, you can usually lower pressing intensity to standard and they'll pick off the ball when they get a good opportunity, instead of furiously trying to win the ball back at every second. While using marking broadly doesn't help your possession stats, it can certainly mitigate the impact of what the opposition can do with their time on ball. You do, however, need to set this stuff up in player instructions, and not just click the tight marking button and think you're done.

[tylerB]

39 minutes ago, Robson 07 said:

And you are doing that by just changing the tactical style or by using another tactic?  Any tactic based on a defensive mentality must usea  suitably defensive formation.  A 4231 for example, might be great for pressing but would be inefficient for a defensive purposes. You would need to get out of that 4231 setup, just flipping to Park The Bus TI's alone would not work. 

No. I have a 4-2-3-1 tactics. It is my defalt tactics. If I like the score and if it is not long until the break or final whistle I switch to another tactic. To "park the bus" which in my case is 4-4-1-1. So basically my attacking wingers simply drop back and everything else stays the same, but duties and mentality differ very much.

 

18 minutes ago, afailed10 said:

It's all about knowing your opponent's strengths and weaknesses as well as your own.

I'd say it is about knowing your stature. There is a common rule that a much weaker team usually don't press high. Regardles of opponent's style and tactis. The opponent is simply a much stronger team. This alone is enough to drop the high pressing idea. Beacause they will break it and you will get exposed. So most weak teams usually choose a very short period of time when they can try their luck, but then they would immediately drop back to ultra defensive positions.

[glengarry224]

Please post your killing-time tactic.  Hard to respond without seeing it.  Note which positions/players tend to wear out using your main tactic, then maybe you can construct a fall-back which protects those positions.

I have had success in FM21 and FM22 doing what you propose but often it takes a good amount of trial and error:  i.e. I fail miserably but adjust until I have a good, park-the-bus tactic.  It's good to play your defensive tactic in friendlies to learn what works and to train your team.

For example, in my current FM22 save with a Vanarama North team, this is my primary tactic for most home matches, where I'm a favorite or when I want to go more for a goal.  Depending upon the opposition and situation, I often up the mentality to 'Positive', up the pressing/tackling, sometimes make the passing more direct and/or counter:

And this is my primary underdog tactic.  I usually have my wide midfielders man-mark opposing wingbacks or wide midfielders, and have wide players aim crosses at the TM.  And if I'm having too much trouble connecting the midfield to the strikers, I can play my LM on IW, and drop my LB to FB(a), or drop my RStr to PF(s).  Often don't use Pass Into Space until I see if there is space:

But if I'm trying to hold a lead against a good team, or like you, I want to rest my players for the final 6-10 minutes of the first half, I can go to this:

[afailed10]

15 horas atrás, tylerB disse:

No. I have a 4-2-3-1 tactics. It is my defalt tactics. If I like the score and if it is not long until the break or final whistle I switch to another tactic. To "park the bus" which in my case is 4-4-1-1. So basically my attacking wingers simply drop back and everything else stays the same, but duties and mentality differ very much.

 

I'd say it is about knowing your stature. There is a common rule that a much weaker team usually don't press high. Regardles of opponent's style and tactis. The opponent is simply a much stronger team. This alone is enough to drop the high pressing idea. Beacause they will break it and you will get exposed. So most weak teams usually choose a very short period of time when they can try their luck, but then they would immediately drop back to ultra defensive positions.

I never had much success with that approach in FM and I've been playing since legends like Claudio Lopez and Jardel were in the game. Defending too deep will just make you unable to put them away from your goal and thus increase the chances of conceding. But that's paer of the game strategy, what's important is having numerical superiority in key areas and nullifying their game. For that often you can't take many risks or commit many players forwars but that doesnt mean you have to sit back and invite pressure.

[tylerB]

9 hours ago, afailed10 said:

9 hours ago, afailed10 said:

Defending too deep will just make you unable to put them away from your goal and thus increase the chances of conceding.

 

You mean in the game or IRL? Because that's the reason of my irritation. That something that works IRL doesn't work in the game. IRL if you score on minute 80 and then park the bus you will win the game 9 times out of 10. In the game if you do that you most likely will concede. 

[SpartyOn]

Parking the bus doesn't just automatically shut down the opponent, IRL or in FM. It requires players who are good at defending. Teams that regularly play that way usually employ tough, physical, defensive-minded personnel. Teams that do it to see out victories often sub off a couple attackers and replace them with better defenders first. Telling a bunch of technical, attack-minded guys to drop back doesn't work and shouldn't work.

[tylerB]

7 hours ago, SpartyOn said:

Parking the bus doesn't just automatically shut down the opponent, IRL or in FM. It requires players who are good at defending.

Parking the bus is not about skills, it's about numbers. Again, when two below average teams play IRL and one of them score a late goal (75 min.+) – even if there's no substitutions left and the coach have to defend with what he has, it is most likely game over. Because the opponent is also a below average team. It means that they can not create chances from open play when there's no space and on the other hand don't have enough time for 6-7 corners to make something out of it.

 

[CARRERA]

40 minutes ago, tylerB said:

Parking the bus is not about skills, it's about numbers. Again, when two below average teams play IRL and one of them score a late goal (75 min.+) – even if there's no substitutions left and the coach have to defend with what he has, it is most likely game over. Because the opponent is also a below average team. It means that they can not create chances from open play when there's no space and on the other hand don't have enough time for 6-7 corners to make something out of it.

 

I dont think anyone is arguing, that Parking the bus cant be effective to close a game. However, what you miss here is that FM has several layers of tactical depth and if you stack up passivity over all layers, your "defensive" tactic becomes ineffective. Unfortunately preset tactics often do that (in both directions) which is why they are most likely bad except maybe 1 or 2.

Edited December 5, 2021 by CARRERA

[Matt_1979]

Did you know there’s statistical evidence that teams who go more defensive to protect a lead lose that lead more often than teams who don’t?

[tylerB]

13 hours ago, Matt_1979 said:

Did you know there’s statistical evidence that teams who go more defensive to protect a lead lose that lead more often than teams who don’t?

Yeah, that because it includes situations when the losing team has enough skills and enough time to "open the can". It includes situations when MC concedes a goal on minute 5 playing against some bottom half team. But I am talking about a certain situation: two below average teams, a goal, 15 minutes to go. If you narrow it down to that, I am afraid you will see something really really different.

 

22 hours ago, CARRERA said:

However, what you miss here is that FM has several layers of tactical depth and if you stack up passivity over all layers, your "defensive" tactic becomes ineffective.

I understand that. But my main question is why my opponent "attacking" tactics becomes effective. They have good players to exploit my mistakes? No. But they suddenly become physically stronger. They literally start winning everything in the air. As if my target forward became shorter and lighter because of my tactical approach. Their long shots suddenly become to go in. Just because they are in attacking mode and my team is in defensive. If it is not the game "helping" (if you know what I mean) the attacking side, then I don't know what that is. Because it also helps me when I go into attacking mode. My team can be absolutely dreadful for the most of the game, but then I just become desperate and switch to ultra-atacking style and voilà, things start to happen. Really?

 

 

Edited December 6, 2021 by tylerB

[Matt_1979]

4 hours ago, tylerB said:

Yeah, that because it includes situations when the losing team has enough skills and enough time to "open the can". It includes situations when MC concedes a goal on minute 5 playing against some bottom half team. But I am talking about a certain situation: two below average teams, a goal, 15 minutes to go. If you narrow it down to that, I am afraid you will see something really really different.

 

I think it was that the winning team goes on to score another goal if they continue to play as normal, more often than the losing team scores an equaliser. I think it was in the book Football Hackers.

[Prepper_Jack]

11 hours ago, tylerB said:

I understand that. But my main question is why my opponent "attacking" tactics becomes effective. They have good players to exploit my mistakes? No. But they suddenly become physically stronger. They literally start winning everything in the air. As if my target forward became shorter and lighter because of my tactical approach. Their long shots suddenly become to go in. Just because they are in attacking mode and my team is in defensive. If it is not the game "helping" (if you know what I mean) the attacking side, then I don't know what that is. Because it also helps me when I go into attacking mode. My team can be absolutely dreadful for the most of the game, but then I just become desperate and switch to ultra-atacking style and voilà, things start to happen. Really?

Players have unseen mental states in the background. While you can see certain things like complacent body language, it's not telling the whole story. Some teams may go into a match being overconfident and think they don't really have to put in the effort to win. Other teams may just be too intimidated and defeatist that they don't even really try to take their chances. You choose to tell them what their mentality should be for the match, but their own personal mentalities can take precedent over such things.

When a goal is scored against a team, this changes their personal mentalities. If it's a bigger side, they might all of a sudden realize they were taking things for granted, and actually start engaging in the match. If you're beating a supposedly inferior team 5-0, they might get annoyed at being humiliated, see that their defense is worthless, and go for broke on the offense. The personalities of the captain on the pitch, and their mentality for the given match, seem to have a great impact on how the team responds overall to such situations. If you have a very determined and professional captain, expect them to fight hard. If you have a very determined captain with difficulties in handling pressure and poor sportsmanship, prepare for things to get a little crazy and red cards to start flying.

Recently had a cup match where my team was facing off against a team a division below. Nothing happened for 45 minutes, until shortly after half-time the opposition got one in. The absolute indignity. This lit a fire under my captain, apparently, because our team went on to score 4 goals within 5 minutes. Then the opposing team had the temerity to score again. My team went nutso, abandoning all pretenses of defense, and the game closed out 18-6 I think it was. Captain alone had 8 goals.

So, yeah, unless you're facing a squad characterized by lack of ambition or something, you should generally expect some push-back after you start winning. Dropping down to your goal and lowering your play intensity in such a circumstance is the wrong way to go about preserving a lead.

[tylerB]

13 hours ago, Prepper_Jack said:

So, yeah, unless you're facing a squad characterized by lack of ambition or something, you should generally expect some push-back after you start winning. 

That's the point – "some pushback". I should expect desperate and ineffective attempts to equlize, but that's about it. You see, if you playing bad for 70-75 minutes and eventually concede, you're done. Nothing except pure luck can save you. You are badly prepared for the match and now that you conceded a late goal, you are also absolutely devastated and broken. Once again, badly prepared, devastated and broken. You can not magically resurrect. You can not just suddenly start playing good football. And yet that's exactly what happens. Over and over again. My goal instead of killing them resurrects them. And it's not that they go into overload mode, thay actually start playing some good football.

I really tried different approaches. It's not that I always drop back and defend. I started this topic because I am basically out of options. Whatever I do, I can't prevent the opposing team from coming back to life after I score. 

 

 

Edited December 7, 2021 by tylerB

[Prepper_Jack]

1 hour ago, tylerB said:

That's the point – "some pushback". I should expect desperate and ineffective attempts to equlize, but that's about it. You see, if you playing bad for 70-75 minutes and eventually concede, you're done. Nothing except pure luck can save you. You are badly prepared for the match and now that you conceded a late goal, you are also absolutely devastated and broken. Once again, badly prepared, devastated and broken. You can not magically resurrect. You can not just suddenly start playing good football. And yet that's exactly what happens. Over and over again. My goal instead of killing them resurrects them. And it's not that they go into overload mode, thay actually start playing some good football.

I really tried different approaches. It's not that I always drop back and defend. I started this topic because I am basically out of options. Whatever I do, I can't prevent the opposing team from coming back to life after I score.

Well, you started off the thread by saying how your team gets tired, because your tactic is intense. This is the big potential pitfall of gegenpress and control possession tactics with high tempos. If your players cannot last an entire match with the intensity you require, they will absolutely falter in the end. You've identified this yourself, but don't seem to understand that this doesn't necessarily apply to the opposition. Their team has likely had a suitable intensity to last an entire match, so you fall to attrition. They see that your players are exhausted. They see your team fall back for a desperate and ineffective defense. Then they go in for the kill. Your team is done, not theirs. Your team is badly prepared and broken, not theirs, and they absolutely know this. What you mistake for "playing badly" in conceding a single goal from a relentless assault for 70 minutes is flawed, as they are prepared to play an entire game and you are not. "Playing badly" is only scoring a single goal while exhausting the team with 20-25 minutes left to play.