Tyler's issues with FM. Major issues. Part I. CA/PA.

[tylerB]

At first, I wanted to put this in Feature Requests, but I take it that requests should be short and specific. And I definitely cannot be short about this, because, well, so much to say. Yet still I’d pretty much like this to be considered as a request. Multiple requests actually. I registered here long time ago, but hasn’t been here for ages. So it is quite possible that much of what I am about to say was already discussed on this forum. I understand that. And also, I want to stress that in no way I’m an FM hater. It will definitely seem that way as we go, but no. I respect the hell out of each and everyone involved in the making of the series. But having said that, I unfortunately have to admit that what’s happening to FM is exactly the same thing that happens to just about anything that has no serious competitor. Stagnation. The issues, major issues that were in the game from the beginning, they’re still there. But enough introduction, let’s talk about this issues, shall we?

 

… There was this young striker I signed. My board encouraged me to sign young players, so I signed him to be my substitute striker. It was mostly a random choice. He was with Spain u-21 national team, but that’s about it. Nothing suggested that he was the next superstar. His assistant reports were okay. Some potential, can improve, blah-blah-blah. His current star rating was 2,5. Not enough for my starting eleven as I got three and four-star players there. But nevertheless he scored goals coming from the bench. Scored enough. Much more then I expected and so I decided to make him my primary striker next season. And boy, he delivered. As a primary “9” he scored 26 goals in La Liga. 26! Now, did he get a call-up? Nope. Did his price go up? Nope. 1,5 – 3,5 million euros. Did big clubs start knocking at my door? Nope. Not a single offer. Why exactly was he able to score that much is another issue and we’ll get to that in part III, but right now let’s just sum things up: 21 year old striker scores 26 goals in La Liga and creates no buzz whatsoever. Do you know why? Of course you know why. Because his CA was not big enough. I didn’t peek, but I suspect that his PA was not impressive either. And that is all AI cares about in the end. These three digits next to CA and three digits next to PA. So, no story here. You’re good, but you got wrong papers, son.

This CA/PA was in the heart of the series since it’s inception, I think. But it needs to go at last. A much more sophisticated system should be introduced instead. A system that would react to 26 goals scored by a young striker and make adjustments. I am not that stupid, I do understand what that would mean in terms of costs. But the series need to move on from this. Branding beforehand is a deeply flawed system. From any point of view. FM is supposed to mimic football life, but that is not what football life is about. Football life is not only about player’s talent. It is, among other things, also about the chance and player’s inner ability to bite into that chance and get the upper hand over his more talented competitors.

My suggestion is to remove PA altogether and let CA be calculated via multiple factors, including actual performance. Because if you think of it, your average rating is your current ability. It can be pretty much temporarily, but it doesn’t matter. “Current” means right here right now. Talent should be one of the factors affecting the performance. It should be very important factor. But it should be possible that if other factors kick in they can outweigh the lack of talent. The game is capable of generating some of these other factors. More so, it is capable of letting these other factors positively affect the player’s performance. But then, when it comes to calculating player’s stature within the gameworld, it just completely ignores the performance.

As an example I suggest you look at real life Jordi Alba's and Gareth Bale's stories. The first one was not good enough to be an attacking winger, but found a completely new life as a wing back. And the second one started as wing back, but turned out to be too talented to continue playing there and became an inside forward. Two stories here. Two world class players. Bale’s story is the story of talent. Pure and simple. And Jordi Alba’s story is very different. Unai Emery back in his Valencia's days started playing him as a wing back, he got his first call-up, signed for Barcelona and the rest is history. So it is not the story of talent. It is actually the story of three factors that overcompensated the lack of one. The first factor was Unai Emery’s factor, who found the solution, found new position for the player. The head coach’s factor. The second factor was that both Barcelona and Spain national team needed exactly this kind of player as a wing-back. An unproven winger. He would be no good on this position in a defensive-minded team. But he didn’t go to a defensive-minded team, he went to Barcelona. You can call it a perfect fit factor. And playing for Barcelona he found this special connection with Messi. And there came the third factor. We can add more, but I think these three is enough for you to get the picture. This third factor is already in the game by the way.

Get rid of CA/PA! New system will require a lot of testing. Like really a lot. And a lot of money, I'm afraid. But this needs to be done. Because this CA/PA thing simply blocks cool underdog stories. Stories that can almost happen in the game, but in the end don't happen. I mean, you can change the history of a small club, but you can't do the same thing with a player. They are not real players, not real people, but when we play we imagine that they are. Everybody does. So it's just sad.

 

So that’s it for part I. I’ll see you in part II.

[FrazT]

This will only be sure to be reviewed in the Features section, so I will move it there

[Michael Sant]

So if I'm understanding you correctly @tylerB you want a players ability to be calculated by their current ratings?

How do match ratings (which can to an extent be artificially increased or suppressed by fairly artificial/non role specific events) translate to attributes? Would it make sense to perhaps penalise the ability of your main striker if he's short but by mistake you've set him marking the near post on defensive set pieces and game in game out he's missing headers to a larger opposition player?

How do players get rated to start the game in which there are no ratings? How do players get attributes adjusted after long periods without play? How do players progress if you put them in a functional but non-exceptional role only ever scoring middle of the road ratings?

How does the research team work with this suggestion to move away from CA/PA? Keep in mind that there's over a 1000 people there, and ultimately any replacement system has to be intuitive and easy enough for researchers to pick up and accurately reflect players with.

[tylerB]

No, you do not understand correctly. There are attributes. And then there is player's stature in the game. The call-ups he gets, the interest from other clubs he attracts. Right now they are heavily bound together and they should not be. If I constantly put a short guy against a tall guy then I'm ruining his career and that should be reflected somehow. If I have world class player, but I don't play him (for any number of reasons) then he can miss the WC if there are other good players in his national team, who regularly play on high level even if their peak attributes are smaller.

 

As for research team, well as I see it, nothing really changes. This guy has "talent" (talent not PA) 170, this one 150, this one 135. It is the game that will later put this numbers into more complicated mix. 

 

 

 

[Michael Sant]

Well what is your current understanding of what governs things like international team selection? What is your understanding of what happens with a player you don't play in game at this time?

[tylerB]

 

9 minutes ago, Michael Sant said:

Well what is your current understanding of what governs things like international team selection?

You mean in real life?

[Michael Sant]

It would be in-game I'm referring to. 

[tylerB]

I'd say CA mostly. Yeah, I know that the attributes drop if you don't play a guy, if that's what you mean. 

Edited December 17, 2021 by tylerB

[Michael Sant]

CA doesn't actively play a part in national team selection, in-game staff have no way of knowing a players CA (they have a perception/judgement which can vary in accuracy).

Home Reputation is something that is used, from attribute definitions: Home Reputation is called in to play when selection of a national team squad is required. The Home Reputation rating is not used when selecting which players actually get to start an international match, however.

Being inconsistent, underperforming, not playing, these things can result in home reputation decreasing. Paul Pogba has a higher home reputation than his CA - to represent within France he's perceived as being a better player than he is in England (or at least that he plays better for France than he does for Manchester United). This gives him a substantial buffer in game though before he gets dropped. 

So in your earlier example of the player who scored 26 in La Liga, his home reputation probably has grown to eclipse his CA - but you're then also relying on his competitors for a spot to fall below his home reputation which may not happen even if they've had a less fruitful 10-15 goal season. Hopefully it provides some more information for you to factor in and provide further thoughts/suggestions about.

[tylerB]

And home reputation is based on what? I can't look inside the game, but I'd say that home reputation is some number manually written in the game for already established players like said Pogba. Thus you can manually make this gap. But for not famous established player this number would be generated by the game and it would be pretty much bound to CA and not to their perfomance. At least it seems that way.

 

And another question: if my guy's home reputation had gone up, why hadn't his price? Why hadn't his salary demands? Doesn't home reputation affect these things?

Edited December 17, 2021 by tylerB

[Michael Sant]

Once a game starts it then transitions to a 1-10,000 scale. This allows it to be quite malleable and influenced across the course of a game. It isn't bound to CA, but for an English player in England then its a reasonable starting point. Across just a few short months when playing around with the IGE I can see movements of a couple hundred points. Transfer interest/values & contract demands come from different areas. If there are suggestions/thoughts you have on those ideas then of course condense them into a thread of their own. You're clearly putting a lot of effort in so it is just the case that its worthwhile providing you with the information about how it does work in game so you can make a more compelling argument once it reaches its end point.

[azymin]

Just to add - I've seen almost the exact opposite, where my Dynamo Kyiv side had 8-10 players with a 'wnt' icon by an EPL club based on their performance. I though that was too many and the player's abilities were in some cases too low for EPL for sure (not in all cases). Work permit rules may have influenced this as well (all players were internationals).

[Abdullah Patel]

Thanks for taking the time to give us feedback, we're going to lock this thread as it has been reviewed