My false nine is useless and other tactical issues.

[_mxrky]

This is the tactic. The aim is to create a 3-1-6 shape on the ball. A sort of 442 off the ball of sorts. I want to the inside forward and amc to be the two main people in the tactic since they are my best players. I have added get further forward on pi's for both so they get behind the false nine. Why no attack duty? I find the attack duties start to high up the pitch which is bad for build up possession and they are to greedy due to individual mentality of very attacking. But I think I may have to change this because it's not really working. Why weird assymetric formation? Only way to press effectively on fm21 from my experience is having at least 3 players in amc strata and because I don't like how wide the mezzala is and how narrower the amr is since I won't him as wide as possible.

Player instructions 

AMC - take more risks, get further forward, move into channels, 

IF - get further forward, hold up ball, mark specific player (lb)

cm - roam from position, move into channels

iw - a - stay wider 

dm-s - hold position, shoot less often 

wb- s stay wier

fb - d - sit narrower, cut inside with baller

rcb - stay wider

My main issue is that my false nine is completely useless. He doesn't drop deep to recieve the ball. he doesn't play others in or create. Just completely anonymou. here is the player I am using:

He's obviously incredible and ideal to play the role, but the performances are poor:

Essentially what I want to achieve is: Getting my inside forward and amc to produce as much output as possible, but not being so aggressive that they ruin the possession dynamics of the team. Getting my false nine to create for them and others. Creating a 316 in possession with the rb forming part of back three. 

Edited February 10, 2022 by _mxrky

[De Nile]

 

44 minutes ago, _mxrky said:

Only way to press effectively on fm21 from my experience is having at least 3 players in amc strata

Not really I don't really know who said that or whether it your own opinion

Quote

My main issue is that my false nine is completely useless. He doesn't drop deep to recieve the ball. he doesn't play others in or create. Just completely anonymou.

Quote

I find the attack duties start to high up the pitch which is bad for build up possession and they are to greedy due to individual mentality of very attacking. 

The tactic as a whole doesn't make sense and it looks a lot like the style I used for zona mista tactical creation anyway the thing with asymmetric is you have to know what is viable in the ME you can't just make an asymmetric tactic and expect it to work that's why most of your important players aren't doing well. 

Edited February 10, 2022 by De Nile

[_mxrky]

20 minutes ago, De Nile said:

 

Not really I don't really know who said that or whether it your own opinion

The tactic as a whole doesn't make sense and it looks a lot like the style I used for zona mista tactical creation anyway the thing with asymmetric is you have to know what is viable in the ME you can't just make an asymmetric tactic and expect it to work that's why most of your important players aren't doing well. 

It's my opinion based on 100s of hours of testing and tweaking tactics. 

'You have to know what is viable in the ME'. The same exact assymetric formation with a couple of tweaks in the roles:

My inside forward alternated between attack and support duty with get further forward PIs :

My attacking midfielders on attack:

My important players are doing well, I just wanted to optimise it further, The tactic makes a lot of sense and it works. 

Edited February 10, 2022 by _mxrky

[Poison]

I used to use this tactic almost with relative success, got 2 championships (the English Championship I mean) with it. I used a cm-attack and a playmaker at dmcr, and a pivot at amc, enganche with no get further forward, just touch and pass, he would only enter the area in second time. My right player was right footed and a winger, but iw left-footed should work too. Left side should be more individualistic, if-a would work better, if-su doesn't have many options to feed except the mr. Put this Argentinian guy in the enganche role, he will absolutely kill it!

[De Nile]

34 minutes ago, _mxrky said:

It's my opinion based on 100s of hours of testing and tweaking tactics. 

'You have to know what is viable in the ME'. The same exact assymetric formation with a couple of tweaks in the roles:

My inside forward alternated between attack and support duty with get further forward PIs :

My attacking midfielders on attack:

My important players are doing well, I just wanted to optimise it further, The tactic makes a lot of sense and it works. 

so why are you saying this information now when you can have enlisted what you have achieved in the game at the start. I only assumed that you were struggling on the basis that your tactic wasn't working the way you intended. Next time be more clear what you to happen and show all information, otherwise no-one is going to read your mind to find out what is exactly going on your save.

Edited February 10, 2022 by De Nile

[_mxrky]

34 minutes ago, Poison said:

I used to use this tactic almost with relative success, got 2 championships (the English Championship I mean) with it. I used a cm-attack and a playmaker at dmcr, and a pivot at amc, enganche with no get further forward, just touch and pass, he would only enter the area in second time. My right player was right footed and a winger, but iw left-footed should work too. Left side should be more individualistic, if-a would work better, if-su doesn't have many options to feed except the mr. Put this Argentinian guy in the enganche role, he will absolutely kill it!

I would put the argentinian at amc, but at the moment I have this guy....

He's ballon dor level, but never gets anywhere near because of my tactic. 

I've just changed my inside forward and amc to attack and it seems to be working. AMC scored a hattrick in the last game. My false nine seems to be doing better as well and is scoring, but I still wish he dropped deeper and recieved more passes. I'll try comes deep to get ball trait

I've tried the dm at dmcr which stops that red space being exploited, but he doesn't stay central in the build up, which I value more so I've accepted the trade off

Edited February 10, 2022 by _mxrky

[Dutchy1983]

In my experience I've never had a F9 operate correctly with anyone in the AM spot, seems to need plenty of space.

how good are them youngsters!? What year into the game are you to get them ?

[_mxrky]

17 hours ago, Dutchy1983 said:

In my experience I've never had a F9 operate correctly with anyone in the AM spot, seems to need plenty of space.

how good are them youngsters!? What year into the game are you to get them ?

I’m in 2038 but I got the Portuguese guy almost 10 years ago 

Edited February 12, 2022 by _mxrky

[Bigshow1]

First thought on that tactic is the IF-s and AM-s are both in the space where the F9 needs to operate and there looks to be nobody running beyond him into the spaces 

[_mxrky]

4 hours ago, Bigshow1 said:

First thought on that tactic is the IF-s and AM-s are both in the space where the F9 needs to operate and there looks to be nobody running beyond him into the spaces 

Both have get further forward pi’s but I’ve changed their duties  to attack anyway 

Edited February 12, 2022 by _mxrky

[Novem9]

I don't see any support for your F9. This role create space and freedom for other attackers, but where are they? 

[lozzny]

En 10/2/2022 a las 7:04, _mxrky dijo:

This is the tactic. The aim is to create a 3-1-6 shape on the ball. A sort of 442 off the ball of sorts. I want to the inside forward and amc to be the two main people in the tactic since they are my best players. I have added get further forward on pi's for both so they get behind the false nine. Why no attack duty? I find the attack duties start to high up the pitch which is bad for build up possession and they are to greedy due to individual mentality of very attacking. But I think I may have to change this because it's not really working. Why weird assymetric formation? Only way to press effectively on fm21 from my experience is having at least 3 players in amc strata and because I don't like how wide the mezzala is and how narrower the amr is since I won't him as wide as possible.

Player instructions 

AMC - take more risks, get further forward, move into channels, 

IF - get further forward, hold up ball, mark specific player (lb)

cm - roam from position, move into channels

iw - a - stay wider 

dm-s - hold position, shoot less often 

wb- s stay wier

fb - d - sit narrower, cut inside with baller

rcb - stay wider

My main issue is that my false nine is completely useless. He doesn't drop deep to recieve the ball. he doesn't play others in or create. Just completely anonymou. here is the player I am using:

He's obviously incredible and ideal to play the role, but the performances are poor:

Essentially what I want to achieve is: Getting my inside forward and amc to produce as much output as possible, but not being so aggressive that they ruin the possession dynamics of the team. Getting my false nine to create for them and others. Creating a 316 in possession with the rb forming part of back three. 

If what you want from your F9 is the creative output then the problem right now is your tactic. 

Lets begin by anknowledging the tasks of a F9. Essentialy this would be to stay in front as a tradicional forward, dropping then deep to participate in the buildup play and from there setup the attacking midfielders/forwards/inverted wingers that can fill the space inside the box and score.

From that point of view, your are using your roles in a wrong way, cause right now there's nobody in your team who is been asked to consistently get inside the box to fill the gap, neither someone who supports him to create space in first place. To explain why, you have to think in the kind of runs that your players do according to their roles. (This is better explained in the Pairs and Combinations pinned guide)

Basically, depending on the role, a player will be more likely to do one of three kinds of runs:

Suntained runs - in wich the player runs at an average speed all around the place in an attept to be relevant. This is done in exchange to a lack o explosiveness in movement. This would be your classic box to box working midfielder.
Dynamic runs - where he usually runs or jogs around at a slower pace and then he explodes, using his pace and intelligence to either look for the space, make himself available for pass or disrup the  opponent's defensive line. This could be the Mezzalla, IW or SS.
And whatever is called the FB running - wich is like a crescendo run, where they start a low pace and speed up as they get closer to the box and then they jog or run slowly to either reposition to continue attacking or going back to defensive shape.

A F9 is usually set to make dynamic runs. And that is one of the reasons you usually shouldn't leave him alone as a striker whitout an AMC, a second striker or a highly aggresive IW/IF. That's because his movement most of the time is running at a low pace while looking to exploit the space. However, a lone F9 will be most of the time covered by two CF and/or DMC, where they can basically take him out of the game without even man marking him. Your player is good, has the right attributes and physically fit, but he is been asked to behave in a manner where is hard for him to participate. He may take the defensive line with him, but the space liberated is not been exploited by your AMC, neither for your wingers. In essence, he is been downplayed by your tactic.

You mentioned that your AMC and IF/IW have the get further forward PI. But you may be confusing Get further forward with Get into box. The first one basically tells them to get at least one more strata up the field than normally without playing or, more importantly, running, in a different way. The second one is a personal trait wich tells them to dynamically run into box once they get near enough. 

Your AMC is a player who makes most of the time sustained runs. Specially when he is in support duty, What your F9 needs is someone who makes dynamic runs from the AMC strata in order to disrupt the defensive shape and either make space for the other to run and score or get free from the CBs to get to the ball and use his creative skills without the enourmous pressure of the defense. That's why the most common companion to a F9 is a SS or an attaking AMC, since those can aggresively take the CBs with them as they run, liberating the creative striker.

Right now, you don't have the kind of runs needed in your other players so that he can get rid of the markers. The AMC will get forward, but his running is not aggresive enought to make the defenders move. And your IF is in support, making him much more conservative. Your attacking IW is too far back, and by the time  he possitions himself the opposition usually has rotated the marks or the DMC has man marked the striker.

So, how can you fix it if you want your F9 to deliver his part? Well, you have some choices:

- You can put behind the F9 an SS or an attacking AMC so that this one can make the runs into space as explained above.
- You can have a much more aggresive IW/IF. This one is less effective deppending on the type of player you have and if they can really get into box or just get to the final line to cross.
- You could tell the F9 to roam from possition. Is way less effective, since he will go to the sides, where he may not be that isolated by the CFs, but also makes him have a lesser impact on game. If your player has a lot of physicals he may get the ball here and fast forward run into box, but is not the more consistent.
- You could expend some time teaching him the Comes deep to look for ball (don't remember the actual name, but you get it) so that he wont get to the AMC strata when going deep, but much much deeper, kinda like 2022 Messi, making him more participative in the creative scheme but making him less of a score trait.
- You could teach some AMC or IW players the trait to get into the box for simmilar outcomes.
 

Remember that the F9 is essentially a playmaker, so the opposite CFs will be by default more willing to follow him around than they would do with another player. If you don't support him he will never be in a possition to affect the game. My favorite variation is playing with a F9 + SS until I can teach the striker the coming deeper trait, and then I can change him to a Complete Forward in support whitout the SS, and instead two aggresive IW/IF. That way he will drop deep to be very creative, we wont be that bullyed by the CFs since he is no longer considered the main creative force (on paper  ) and the inverteds can exploit the space and give the back pass to him to score from penalty mark.

 

Hope this helps you.

Edited February 13, 2022 by lozzny

[_mxrky]

58 minutes ago, lozzny said:

If what you want from your F9 is the creative output then the problem right now is your tactic. 

Lets begin by anknowledging the tasks of a F9. Essentialy this would be to stay in front as a tradicional forward, dropping then deep to participate in the buildup play and from there setup the attacking midfielders/forwards/inverted wingers that can fill the space inside the box and score.

From that point of view, your are using your roles in a wrong way, cause right now there's nobody in your team who is been asked to consistently get inside the box to fill the gap, neither someone who supports him to create space in first place. To explain why, you have to think in the kind of runs that your players do according to their roles. (This is better explained in the Pairs and Combinations pinned guide)

Basically, depending on the role, a player will be more likely to do one of three kinds of runs:

Suntained runs - in wich the player runs at an average speed all around the place in an attept to be relevant. This is done in exchange to a lack o explosiveness in movement. This would be your classic box to box working midfielder.
Dynamic runs - where he usually runs or jogs around at a slower pace and then he explodes, using his pace and intelligence to either look for the space, make himself available for pass or disrup the  opponent's defensive line. This could be the Mezzalla, IW or SS.
And whatever is called the FB running - wich is like a crescendo run, where they start a low pace and speed up as they get closer to the box and then they jog or run slowly to either reposition to continue attacking or going back to defensive shape.

A F9 is usually set to make dynamic runs. And that is one of the reasons you usually shouldn't leave him alone as a striker whitout an AMC, a second striker or a highly aggresive IW/IF. That's because his movement most of the time is running at a low pace while looking to exploit the space. However, a lone F9 will be most of the time covered by two CF and/or DMC, where they can basically take him out of the game without even man marking him. Your player is good, has the right attributes and physically fit, but he is been asked to behave in a manner where is hard for him to participate. He may take the defensive line with him, but the space liberated is not been exploited by your AMC, neither for your wingers. In essence, he is been downplayed by your tactic.

You mentioned that your AMC and IF/IW have the get further forward PI. But you may be confusing Get further forward with Get into box. The first one basically tells them to get at least one more strata up the field than normally without playing or, more importantly, running, in a different way. The second one is a personal trait wich tells them to dynamically run into box once they get near enough. 

Your AMC is a player who makes most of the time sustained runs. Specially when he is in support duty, What your F9 needs is someone who makes dynamic runs from the AMC strata in order to disrupt the defensive shape and either make space for the other to run and score or get free from the CBs to get to the ball and use his creative skills without the enourmous pressure of the defense. That's why the most common companion to a F9 is a SS or an attaking AMC, since those can aggresively take the CBs with them as they run, liberating the creative striker.

Right now, you don't have the kind of runs needed in your other players so that he can get rid of the markers. The AMC will get forward, but his running is not aggresive enought to make the defenders move. And your IF is in support, making him much more conservative. Your attacking IW is too far back, and by the time  he possitions himself the opposition usually has rotated the marks or the DMC has man marked the striker.

So, how can you fix it if you want your F9 to deliver his part? Well, you have some choices:

- You can put behind the F9 an SS or an attacking AMC so that this one can make the runs into space as explained above.
- You can have a much more aggresive IW/IF. This one is less effective deppending on the type of player you have and if they can really get into box or just get to the final line to cross.
- You could tell the F9 to roam from possition. Is way less effective, since he will go to the sides, where he may not be that isolated by the CFs, but also makes him have a lesser impact on game. If your player has a lot of physicals he may get the ball here and fast forward run into box, but is not the more consistent.
- You could expend some time teaching him the Comes deep to look for ball (don't remember the actual name, but you get it) so that he wont get to the AMC strata when going deep, but much much deeper, kinda like 2022 Messi, making him more participative in the creative scheme but making him less of a score trait.
- You could teach some AMC or IW players the trait to get into the box for simmilar outcomes.
 

Remember that the F9 is essentially a playmaker, so the opposite CFs will be by default more willing to follow him around than they would do with another player. If you don't support him he will never be in a possition to affect the game. My favorite variation is playing with a F9 + SS until I can teach the striker the coming deeper trait, and then I can change him to a Complete Forward in support whitout the SS, and instead two aggresive IW/IF. That way he will drop deep to be very creative, we wont be that bullyed by the CFs since he is no longer considered the main creative force (on paper  ) and the inverteds can exploit the space and give the back pass to him to score from penalty mark.

 

Hope this helps you.

Thanks. Yeah I’ve changed the inside forward and amc to attack

Edited February 13, 2022 by _mxrky