Fining players for 2weeks wages for bad perfomance always leads to unhappiness

[Metal]

I've had players perform in the the red  in the 5's rating and warranted the maximum fine but then they always complain about it being unfair. It seems the maximum you can fine your players for bad performance without them kicking up a fuss seems to be one week so what is the point of having the option of 2 weeks if it's only going to always lead to a player being disgruntled?

Anyone else noticed this?

[FrazT]

The 2 week fine is the maximum penalty that you can invoke and should only be used after going through the normal warning system- you shouldn't be fined at that level unless you have had a number of previous warnings.

[mitchell11]

3 hours ago, Metal said:

I've had players perform in the the red  in the 5's rating and warranted the maximum fine but then they always complain about it being unfair. It seems the maximum you can fine your players for bad performance without them kicking up a fuss seems to be one week so what is the point of having the option of 2 weeks if it's only going to always lead to a player being disgruntled?

Anyone else noticed this?

Don't ever go into a management role at work irl.

[Metal]

24 minutes ago, mitchell11 said:

Don't ever go into a management role at work irl.

Don't know what you imply by that but I don't mean I always fine them 2 weeks wages, I fine a player 2 weeks wages if they put in a below 6.0 performance and it's in the red red red and they cost me a result. 

So I don't think you should be penalised for using an option which is there to get across the gravity of the players below par performance. If it was up to me there'd be an option to fine them a months wage

[Lord Rowell]

5 hours ago, Metal said:

I've had players perform in the the red  in the 5's rating and warranted the maximum fine but then they always complain about it being unfair. It seems the maximum you can fine your players for bad performance without them kicking up a fuss seems to be one week so what is the point of having the option of 2 weeks if it's only going to always lead to a player being disgruntled?

Anyone else noticed this?

I'm not surprised. How would you feel if this happened to you at your workplace?
At the end of the day it can be easily forgotten that footballers are just people, flesh and blood with feelings, like you and I.

[podunkboy]

Forgive me for my density, but WHO exactly determines/imposes the match player rating? Is it media, club staff, etc? Can you imagine going home after a match and telling the wife that you don't get paid for two weeks because the media thought you didn't measure up to standards and the coach cancelled your paycheck? I've NEVER fined a player for performance, and the only time they get penalized if they violate the agreed-upon club discipline plan. I have enough problems with players complaining about game starts to worry about taking money from their pockets. 

[Metal]

1 hour ago, Lord Rowell said:

I'm not surprised. How would you feel if this happened to you at your workplace?
At the end of the day it can be easily forgotten that footballers are just people, flesh and blood with feelings, like you and I.

1. there is an option there for use, so it should have a purpose other than making players unhappy. It should serve to have player face a consequence for putting in way below par performance and then spur them on to do better next time. The fact fining them 1 weeks wages does the trick should show you it has a purpose.

2. This is just a game not the real world, nevertheless players get docked  irl wages for performance related issues

3- footballers get paid tens of thousands per week so they a have a higher expectation to perform to a required standard.

As for the post above, the game decides the ratings through the coaches, and you can tell a player is having a bad game costing you a penalty, red card or a goal. Just because you don't use the function which actually helps improve morale between you and the player when it's used in the right circumstance doesn't mean it's wrong

[themadsheep2001]

Footballers rarely get fined 2 weeks wages in reality, its for the most serious of breaches, that's how it's treated in game. Yes you can use it as a tool, but don't complain when they kick off when you have used a tool in an unreasonable manner

[HUNT3R]

Was it completely the player's fault for the poor rating? Did you, as the manager, have no part in the player receiving the poor rating?

Fining someone 2 weeks worth of wages is the harshest we can do on FM, so it's not surprising that players aren't going to like it. We fine players 2 weeks for violet conduct and other extreme actions. I don't see a poor performance in the same light as those offences.

[Metal]

15 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

Was it completely the player's fault for the poor rating? Did you, as the manager, have no part in the player receiving the poor rating?

Fining someone 2 weeks worth of wages is the harshest we can do on FM, so it's not surprising that players aren't going to like it. We fine players 2 weeks for violet conduct and other extreme actions. I don't see a poor performance in the same light as those offences.

That's fine and understandable but then why is 2weeks fine an option on the game for poor performance? This is my issue with it. If players are going to kick off as madsheep put then it shouldn't really be an option. 

It should be removed if this is the case, which is it doesn't ever work to improve performance like fining them 1/2 weeks or 1 weeks wage does.

And no its not my fault if the player performs like a donkey, unless I played them out of position which I don't, sometimes like the goalie they let in 4-5 goals the only option is to sub them or berate them with a shout but then they still play badly, which leads me to fining or warning them about performance

[HUNT3R]

10 minutes ago, Metal said:

That's fine and understandable but then why is 2weeks fine an option on the game for poor performance? This is my issue with it.

What you're seeing are the general options for disciplining a player.

10 minutes ago, Metal said:

And no its not my fault if the player performs like a donkey, unless I played them out of position which I don't, sometimes like the goalie they let in 4-5 goals the only option is to sub them or berate them with a shout but then they still play badly, which leads me to fining or warning them about performance

It's any manager's responsibility to give those under him/her the best possible situation/tools/environment to succeed. I was trying to lead you toward the line of thought that it's possible your tactic contributed to it. Or that the player match up meant that your player never stood a chance. Or if you saw issues, the player should have been subbed off earlier or changes made earlier to not let it get as bad as a 5.x rating. If you're seeing someone struggle, something should be done to prevent things getting worse, no?

 

[vikeologist]

The game allows us to do lots of counterproductive things. Should there be warnings or ways to know more easily that it would be counterproductive? maybe, but at least with fines players kick off (or not) straight away.

I don't think there's ever any advantage to fining players 2 weeks for poor performances. I'd certainly welcome further experiments, but 1 week maximum (for a band of performances) seems to have the optimum effect.

I'm being coy, because fining players has such a huge effect, it's practically a cheat code, so up to y'all if you want to read the spoiler.

Spoiler

I have no idea if fining players improves their performances per se.

What it does do is improve their determination and work rate attributes. A lot.

I mean, A LOT!

What others have suggested is the following

6.5 Warning

6.3-4 1 day fine

6.2 or below 1 week fine.

If there is a way to make this more effective, I haven't seen proof as yet.

Not all players will react the same way. I have a slack player, which I think must mean a professionalism attribute of 1, which will not budge, and he does not like being fined, but generally speaking you should be improving players' professionalism as a priority, meaning that you can fine with impunity. Players who complain do seem to have no increases to their Det/WR as a result of that fine. 

Basically though, I fine every single player according to the guidelines above.

Any negative consequences?

Well, your manager personality ill quickly become disciplinarian, but I don't see that as a problem.

Your squad personality will become highly determined, which might be bad if it 'drowns out' an otherwise professional squad personality, but I don't know enough about squad personality to evaluate whether it does any harm. It might not be doing much for my slack player (although his determination and work rate have improved, either through fines or mentoring. Anyway, my expectations for Mr Slack are understandably minimal.

Basically, if there's any reason at all not to get fining, I'm unaware of it. Just don't fine them 2 weeks. Ever.

 

Edited February 15, 2022 by vikeologist

[Metal]

20 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

What you're seeing are the general options for disciplining a player.

It's any manager's responsibility to give those under him/her the best possible situation/tools/environment to succeed. I was trying to lead you toward the line of thought that it's possible your tactic contributed to it. Or that the player match up meant that your player never stood a chance. Or if you saw issues, the player should have been subbed off earlier or changes made earlier to not let it get as bad as a 5.x rating. If you're seeing someone struggle, something should be done to prevent things getting worse, no?

 

It's not my tactics I just accept sometimes just like irl players have stinkers and man management you deal with by warning or fining the player in hand. Sometimes if it's the goalkeeper performing bad I cant always sub as don't always put goalie on the bench, I usually touchline shout berate or demand more if I see they are on a downward trajectory in form during the match

But now I know never to use 2 week fine, I just thought it had a purpose when it comes to disciplining action in regards to player performance. However from reading the replies it's never an option so I'll stick to 1 week as the harshest punishment when I want a player to have a kick up their backside to improve their form

[Mons]

I don't think any player irl has ever been fined for a poor performance, let alone fined two (2) weeks' wages. How would you like it if your boss at work deducted two weeks from your monthly pay packet arbitrarily?

[vikeologist]

This is generally a sort of limitation (Hope that's not too strong a word) with the game that the players will lack intuition when it comes to fines.

People used to build up fines for repeat offences, such as sending offs, so you gave a warning the first time, a day's fine the next, but players could not recognise that progression. This has now been sorted out of course with agreed codes of conduct, but generally players can't and won't contextualise fines, because they're, well, lines of code.

This means that you can deliberately cause bad match ratings by playing them out of position, or arranging friendlies where they're monumentally outmatched, were there to be a reason to do that.

 

[Spurs08]

Kurt Zouma got a two-week fine for going Kung-Fu fighting with his pet tabby, it's not for whenever someone gets sent off...

[FrazT]

The discipline system is most workplaces would normally work like this:

First offence- verbal warning
Second offence- written warning
Third offence- 1 weeks fine
Fourth offence- 2 weeks fine

Obviously you can skip some of these steps depending on the severity of the offence, but poor performance would not be deemed as a serious offence and would incur the above penalties only for consistent poor performances.

Keep a note when you warn a player and use the notes to decide on what punishment is merited if and when another offence occurs

[sdx15]

9 hours ago, Metal said:

1. there is an option there for use, so it should have a purpose other than making players unhappy. It should serve to have player face a consequence for putting in way below par performance and then spur them on to do better next time. The fact fining them 1 weeks wages does the trick should show you it has a purpose.

It does serve its purpose. Some options may be in the game to simply **** off players or for you to severely punish someone regtardless of what they'll think of the fine.

While this is a game, we all know FM isn't an easy game in which 99 per ent of your actions will end up with a positive result so you must have this in mind when you're clicking yourself through the game. This is a hit and miss game, especially when it comes to interacting with players.

On the other hand, I do remember my players sometimes accepted two-week fines on FM20, I was lucky enough not to need this on FM22 yet so I've got no idea whether something has changed.

Edited February 16, 2022 by sdx15

[Metal]

9 hours ago, FrazT said:

The discipline system is most workplaces would normally work like this:

First offence- verbal warning
Second offence- written warning
Third offence- 1 weeks fine
Fourth offence- 2 weeks fine

Obviously you can skip some of these steps depending on the severity of the offence, but poor performance would not be deemed as a serious offence and would incur the above penalties only for consistent poor performances.

Keep a note when you warn a player and use the notes to decide on what punishment is merited if and when another offence occurs

That's the problem frazT the game doesn't register this escalation. I've had the same player under perform in several matches because they're in a vein of bad form, I fine them first 1/2 or 1 week which they accept, but then the same player still puts in another crap performance and then I try to escalate it to 2 weeks so they get the message and then they want to kick off

I think like others have suggested, it's just there to just upset a player who you dont want any longer because they never accept it they always feel it's unfair regardless how many bad performances they put in which was my initial point  I think some posters think I just go straight to fining the player 2 weeks wage when that isn't the case, they have to put in either consistently bad performances or a horrific performance which costs the team a big result which I feel warrants a 2 week fine.

[HUNT3R]

3 hours ago, Metal said:

That's the problem frazT the game doesn't register this escalation. I've had the same player under perform in several matches because they're in a vein of bad form, I fine them first 1/2 or 1 week which they accept, but then the same player still puts in another crap performance and then I try to escalate it to 2 weeks so they get the message and then they want to kick off

I think like others have suggested, it's just there to just upset a player who you dont want any longer because they never accept it they always feel it's unfair regardless how many bad performances they put in which was my initial point  I think some posters think I just go straight to fining the player 2 weeks wage when that isn't the case, they have to put in either consistently bad performances or a horrific performance which costs the team a big result which I feel warrants a 2 week fine.

Players don't have memories in the game, so there's no escalation that can be applied.

The player isn't underperforming on purpose. I'm going to make the same point that I made earlier - if you're having an issue with just one player and it is a consistent issue - find the root of the issue? You want to keep fining the player indefinitely, but you're not fixing any problems, so it's always going to be there. Maybe the player isn't good enough? Maybe he switches off too much? Maybe he's often nervous in matches and makes rash decisions? Maybe he gets skinned too much because he's either up against fantastic dribblers, there's a massive pace difference or your instructions cause him to be too far out of position etc.? Maybe he's required to make passes he's not capable of? There could be a lot of reasons why something is happening. Sort that out and you have no issues with unhappy players or having to fine someone.

 

[Crispypaul]

It's worth being relatively harsh on poor performances as its a good way of building up determination, particularly on more professional players.  

Two weeks is a bit much though

[crpcarrot]

player personality also play a big part in what a player would accept. seems logical not everyone reacts the same to criticism. 

[vikeologist]

10 minutes ago, crpcarrot said:

player personality also play a big part in what a player would accept. seems logical not everyone reacts the same to criticism. 

Sure, but there's not many personalities it will be a problem with. Like I say, slack.

However, I once had a very promising regen with temperamental personality, and I thought, oh no. He's not going to like being fined, but it was fine.

As I say, even if Mr Slack gets upset, I don't care. It might not be doing any good, but I can't see that it does any harm either, and if it does cause an unprofessional player to leave (because I do think it is primarily a professionalism problem), so what. With low professionalism and a determination that can't be improved, that only leaves ambition. 

Of course, if it's a really good senior player, you might not need them to improve; just to stay. I guess if you have a slack superstar, don't fine him.

[Domathon]

the title of this thread is untrue, i have successfully fined a player two weeks wages for a terrible performance, without any crys or moans from him, also when someone did complain about a 2 week fine in the past i had such good dynamics and team cohesion that my captain talked the player around, another example,

[toiletfootball]

I use the fine system regularly starting with a warning and increasing by one level with further poor performance. The two week fine does always cause issues in my experience so I don't use it and opt for the 'the team needs you to get back to form' conversation instead under 'criticise form'.

I would never fine players if I was a real manager because I think it's counter-productive as others have alluded to. In game however, you sometimes get a boost of 1 point to determination and/or work rate.