The Winter Update has ruined me

[ReadingFan82]

Hello everyone!

I just wanted to ask if anyone else had been as hit by the winter update as I have? I started a new save with Everton and in my 1st season finished 13th, which just met objectives but still not great at all, paired with disappointing cup performances. I got away mainly due to a decent start but apart from that had a very poor season, my team kept just 4 clean sheets all season in all competitions, only 3 in the league. I've tried pretty much every pre-set, every tactic that I've used earlier in the game cycle from different saves, everything, and nothing has seemed to work for me. I'm just a bit clueless to be honest and have no idea where it is I'm going so wrong with it. My teams been fine scoring goals, I have DCL and Richarlison who are both quite good, especially DCL, but I just have absolutely no idea how to stop shipping so many goals and thus actually manage to get any results.

I've also found set pieces to be completely neutered, at the start of the year they were far too overpowered but recently, and particularly after the winter update, I've found set pieces of any form to be completely useless, I honestly can't recall scoring one all season. I almost certainly did but I just can't remember.

Saying all this, I have no idea if I'm being too ambitious with the team I have but just thought it might be worth posting anyway to see if anyone else had felt the same. Thanks for reading!

[Johnny Ace]

No massive change really

Post up what you're using so people can try and help

[Sharkn20]

I am actually playing better after the update with the IF doing IF things now.

[jens_dewit]

3 minutes ago, Sharkn20 said:

I am actually playing better after the update with the IF doing IF things now.

Same, although I didn't have any complaints before either. Sometimes he cut in and scored, other times he ran the byline and assisted. Playing mostly counter-attacking might've had a different effect on the behavior of IF perhaps?

[ReadingFan82]

1 hour ago, Sharkn20 said:

I am actually playing better after the update with the IF doing IF things now.

I have been using an inverted winger on both sides, one on support and one on attack, but I might have to go the inside forward a go, at least on the left side were I have the attacking inverted winger.

[ReadingFan82]

These are the 2 tactics I've been using, with slight variations at times, but this is generally the idea. The 4231 I've used to a fair bit of success on other saves previously. I've also used 5 at the back from time to time to see if that prevents the flow of goals but even that hasn't seemed to help a whole lot either. Just let me know where you think I'm going so wrong on it if you can!

Also just attached my last seasons results from the league. I go through little spells when I do ok and then collapse again completely, to change to a new tactic or style to then have a 3/4 game ok spell and then to collapse again, but that's not going to work and eventually I'll just sink all the way and be in real trouble.

[prched55]

46 minutes ago, ReadingFan82 said:

Just let me know where you think I'm going so wrong on it if you can!

I think your roles and duties are fine in both tactics. The first one is just super aggressive in possession so you're opening a lot of space on the wings for the AI to take advantage of. You're on attacking mentality, with overlaps on both sides, and aggressive fullback roles. For the second tactic it is the same thing. Even though you're on balanced, your fullbacks are pushing super high with no support for the CBs because of the lack of a DM. 

 

[RPM_01]

Second one especially is prone to being wide open. Counter + extremely high tempo + pass into space just means instability. Maybe look at knocking the tempo down one and taking off counter and pass into space. 

I'd also look at your pairings. So IF-At and BBM may, being narrow, try occupy the same space at times, so try and look to a CAR-Su to provide options between that and your WB with a little more defensive cover. 

Let me know if that helps!

[ReadingFan82]

29 minutes ago, RPM_01 said:

Second one especially is prone to being wide open. Counter + extremely high tempo + pass into space just means instability. Maybe look at knocking the tempo down one and taking off counter and pass into space. 

I'd also look at your pairings. So IF-At and BBM may, being narrow, try occupy the same space at times, so try and look to a CAR-Su to provide options between that and your WB with a little more defensive cover. 

Let me know if that helps!

When I have a crack at the game in a little bit I'll give it a go and let you know how it goes!

 

[ReadingFan82]

2 hours ago, prched55 said:

I think your roles and duties are fine in both tactics. The first one is just super aggressive in possession so you're opening a lot of space on the wings for the AI to take advantage of. You're on attacking mentality, with overlaps on both sides, and aggressive fullback roles. For the second tactic it is the same thing. Even though you're on balanced, your fullbacks are pushing super high with no support for the CBs because of the lack of a DM. 

 

Do you think for the first tactic knocking the Wb attack down to a support would be helpful? 

My logic for having super aggressive tactics were because I worried I might not have the quality of players to break down the opposition and thought that if I maybe kept a more aggressive, really high tempo approach might have a better chance to score goals as opposed to a more measured approach with the set of player I have.

Do you think that a 433 with a DM would be better for a 4231 if I want to consist with full backs who will be going forward, given that if I have them on a defensive role to stay back and try to have a back 3 in a way to try and deal with counter attacks?

[odigweg]

Just took some time off work so I should be able to attempt to help in depth (ish). I am probably going to echo some of the replies already posted but here we go:

• Generally when I create tactics I try to imagine the ball being played out from the back and through the team until a goal is scored. I use a tactics board for this but this is a good free resource: https://tactical-board.com/uk/big-football. I am also very risk averse so as I do this, I try to pause at different points to think about where the opposition could exploit if we lost the ball right then. I make notes of that, fix them and then resume. The key truth is that it is virtually impossible to remove all risk in a football game. 
• Having said all that, I tried doing the same with your first tactic and the AI would lick their lips at the counter attacking prospects. The left side would be exploited very easily if you lost the ball - the Mez(s), while not as aggressive as the attack variant, is still one of the more aggressive midfield roles (get further forward is baked into the role). This combined with the WB(s) on his side and the fact that Mykolenko has "get forward whenever posisble" as a trait mean you could get into some risky situations. I would remedy this by making Mykolenko a Fullback(S). And perhaps removing the overlap instruction on that side as well. 
• Speaking of overlaps, they're a good way to move your wing backs into good crossing positions but there needs to be adequate cover. Your right side isn't as problematic at all. However being the least gutsy person that I am, I would give Doucoure a midfield role that is more willing to cover - carrilero(s), bwm(s). 
• I realize this post is longer than I planned but I must power on haha. Another thing that is important is to look at the quality of team you have. You can do this by looking at the media predictions or if it's not your first season, where you finished last season.  The lower down the table you're expected to finish, the more risk averse you probably should be. The reason is that the AI is more aggressive with attacking when you're not the cream of the crop. 
• Based on that logic, an attacking mentality combined with high lines when managing Everton is asking for a lot of trouble. If you were managing Man City, Liverpool, or even United and Chelsea, then you could probably get away with this because teams would be too scared to attack you.  You'd also get away with it if you led Everton to league/champions league glory. There are many ways to remedy this. I personally wouldn't go with a low block because your team is actually quite capable. A mid block could work well. 
• Work Ball Into Box could also make things tough on the offensive end since you do not have creators of the calibre available at the big teams. 
• Odds and Ends: If you do take the defensive line suggestions above, then it might make sense to reduce your pressing frequency (your players and physios would probably thank you for it ). Counter pressing vs regrouping is something I'd take on a game by game basis. There are a few other things I would do differently but I think this is a good start. I also think that Calvert Lewin is quite good but not good enough to play the Complete Forward to the highest potential. He doesn't have the passing, vision, dribbling required of the role. I currently have him in my Arsenal save performing quite well as either a Target Forward (A) Or Poacher - there are other reasons for this but I fear I am venturing into obnoxious territory with this post.

NOTE: I want to stress that I don't think there is any such thing as wrong or bad tactics (within reason). I also didn't comment on the second tactic  but you can use these same ideas to think of how to fine-tune that one as well. 

[prched55]

1 hour ago, ReadingFan82 said:

Do you think for the first tactic knocking the Wb attack down to a support would be helpful? 

I would change the TIs. Remove the overlaps and lower the tempo. You're already playing on attacking so the fullbacks will be getting up the field. 

 

1 hour ago, ReadingFan82 said:

My logic for having super aggressive tactics were because I worried I might not have the quality of players to break down the opposition and thought that if I maybe kept a more aggressive, really high tempo approach might have a better chance to score goals as opposed to a more measured approach with the set of player I have.

I think the aggression will benefit you out of possession. But in possession if you're players aren't good, they won't make the decisions quick enough and will lose the ball. 

[ReadingFan82]

22 hours ago, odigweg said:

Just took some time off work so I should be able to attempt to help in depth (ish). I am probably going to echo some of the replies already posted but here we go:

• Generally when I create tactics I try to imagine the ball being played out from the back and through the team until a goal is scored. I use a tactics board for this but this is a good free resource: https://tactical-board.com/uk/big-football. I am also very risk averse so as I do this, I try to pause at different points to think about where the opposition could exploit if we lost the ball right then. I make notes of that, fix them and then resume. The key truth is that it is virtually impossible to remove all risk in a football game. 
• Having said all that, I tried doing the same with your first tactic and the AI would lick their lips at the counter attacking prospects. The left side would be exploited very easily if you lost the ball - the Mez(s), while not as aggressive as the attack variant, is still one of the more aggressive midfield roles (get further forward is baked into the role). This combined with the WB(s) on his side and the fact that Mykolenko has "get forward whenever posisble" as a trait mean you could get into some risky situations. I would remedy this by making Mykolenko a Fullback(S). And perhaps removing the overlap instruction on that side as well. 
• Speaking of overlaps, they're a good way to move your wing backs into good crossing positions but there needs to be adequate cover. Your right side isn't as problematic at all. However being the least gutsy person that I am, I would give Doucoure a midfield role that is more willing to cover - carrilero(s), bwm(s). 
• I realize this post is longer than I planned but I must power on haha. Another thing that is important is to look at the quality of team you have. You can do this by looking at the media predictions or if it's not your first season, where you finished last season.  The lower down the table you're expected to finish, the more risk averse you probably should be. The reason is that the AI is more aggressive with attacking when you're not the cream of the crop. 
• Based on that logic, an attacking mentality combined with high lines when managing Everton is asking for a lot of trouble. If you were managing Man City, Liverpool, or even United and Chelsea, then you could probably get away with this because teams would be too scared to attack you.  You'd also get away with it if you led Everton to league/champions league glory. There are many ways to remedy this. I personally wouldn't go with a low block because your team is actually quite capable. A mid block could work well. 
• Work Ball Into Box could also make things tough on the offensive end since you do not have creators of the calibre available at the big teams. 
• Odds and Ends: If you do take the defensive line suggestions above, then it might make sense to reduce your pressing frequency (your players and physios would probably thank you for it ). Counter pressing vs regrouping is something I'd take on a game by game basis. There are a few other things I would do differently but I think this is a good start. I also think that Calvert Lewin is quite good but not good enough to play the Complete Forward to the highest potential. He doesn't have the passing, vision, dribbling required of the role. I currently have him in my Arsenal save performing quite well as either a Target Forward (A) Or Poacher - there are other reasons for this but I fear I am venturing into obnoxious territory with this post.

NOTE: I want to stress that I don't think there is any such thing as wrong or bad tactics (within reason). I also didn't comment on the second tactic  but you can use these same ideas to think of how to fine-tune that one as well. 

Thanks for responding, and I hope you have enjoyed/are enjoying your time off work!

I’ll give that tactic board thing a little go then; I’ve never used something like that, but it could be really useful to see where it is I’m going so wrong. As you say I think I need to be far more risk averse, obviously my sides defensive performances have been pretty dire so I might need to be a bit more cautious and a bit more sensible with the way I’m trying to play.

I’ve found the overlap seems to slow things down a little bit waiting for the run from the wing backs so as long as they roles or player traits on they should get forward and still provide the width I’m looking for

I had been thinking of dropping the Mez to a different role, do you think perhaps swapping the box to the box to the left side and the carrilero/BWM onto the right side with the more attacking wing back could work? Could also maybe putting the BWM at the DM spot and the DLP (on support maybe) up into one of the CM positions?

My media prediction the start of this season was 13^th, and I think that’s where I finished last season (it might have been 12^th but ultimately not a huge difference) so in comparison to a lot of the teams in the league were one of the lesser teams. Were predicted to be as close to relegation places as we are to the European places. So, by your logic, I need to be very risk averse, which judging by the tactics I’ve posted here I have not been so.

That’s something I’ve always wondered, does what mentality you’re an effect things like defensive lines and lines of engagement? So, is a high defensive line on an attack mentality going to be higher than the same defensive line but on the cautious mentality, if that makes sense? A mid-block makes more sense, I did try a low block at points in my last season and while I did concede far fewer goals it pretty much neutered any sort of attacking capability I had so a mid-block would make more sense as you suggest.

My logic with work ball into box was that my team was having a lot of shots but not a whole lot of quality ones, particularly against lesser teams, so I thought adding that instruction could perhaps stop us being so wasteful on the ball. Obviously against Man City or someone, or even like Leicester or West Ham I might not have the quality to break down a team, but against the Burnley’s, Brentford’s of the world could it not be viable option from time to time?

Yeah, that’s a good point about DCL, he isn’t exactly someone I’d put as a deep lying forward so that makes sense. I have thought of putting him as a pressing forward or as an advanced forward. He’s definitely more of a finisher though so I do need to try and lessen his input in the build-up play

Don’t worry about the post being long at all, I’ve found it really helpful, so thank you!

[Dieuwert]

Hi all,

Hopefully it is okay to post this as a reply and not a new post. This is my first time on this forum.

I have had similar succes with the winter update. I struggled with this years FM in finding a successfull tactic, partly because my love for the simple 442. After moving from sc Heerenveen (my local team in The Netherlands) to Betis Sevilla in Spain, i finally had it all together. High on scoring, low on conceding. Everything clicked. 

Last season:

Then, winter update came just as the new season would start, and I just keep conceding. Before the winter update I almost never conceded from balls over the top, now it feels like almost 2 a game. Players make stupid decisions. Defenders are defending mostly air. Because also the scoring has diminished, my results are very dissapointing. And I almost surpassed my goals conceded after just 12 games, in comparison to the entire previous season.

New season:

My 'old' tactic

I am no expert in tactics, why is it not working anymore? I have experimented with tweaks here en there (especially removing instuctions, since there are so many), but I feel like al stability has been lossed since the update.  Can someone advise?

PS. is there a way to get to the data hub of a previous season as to better compare? 

Thanks for the help!

[Johnny Ace]

24 minutes ago, Dieuwert said:

Hi all,

Hopefully it is okay to post this as a reply and not a new post. This is my first time on this forum.

It's fine but a fresh topic would've been nice 

Do like a good ol' 4-4-2 myself, from your roles, the only thing that stands out to me is the right hand side of your midfield. the BBM and Winger on Attack. I like "sturdy" roles in central midfield and never usually have both wingers on Attack and feel you could drop the right winger down to Support 

TI's, you have the overlaps on both flanks, I'd be tempted to try taking those off and the Counter Press is a high risk TI that might be worth experimenting with  

[Tfunk]

On 02/03/2022 at 12:40, Sharkn20 said:

I am actually playing better after the update with the IF doing IF things now.

How when they still don't cut in? they run to the line, stop, turn and pass inside every time no matter the instruction or player

[CARRERA]

1 hour ago, Tfunk said:

How when they still don't cut in? they run to the line, stop, turn and pass inside every time no matter the instruction or player

Without know, this sounds like you are playing with an increased attacking width. Did you try to play more narrow and have fullbacks create the width? IW/IF should be acting more in the channels

[NeilUK]

I am also really struggling after the update, I have tried creating my own, using downloaded tactics, nothing seems to work. I know bad runs of form are famously difficult to get out of in FM but this is crazy. Has the new update "nirfed" Gegenpress?

I was managing Leeds before the update on a 5 year save and all was fine, mid table the first couple of seasons and then I started qualifying for Europe.

My last season I got to the final of the Champions League (well beaten by Real Madrid) After the update I decided to start a new save, managing Leeds again but also a second manager trying to get Scarborough back through the leagues.

Things aren't doing too badly with Scarborough but with Leeds it's relegation struggles and currently can't buy a win.

The tactic I used to use with Leeds was Gegenpress , Inverted wingers on Support (AMR and AML) Full backs with WB role (best role for my full backs according to the advice) tried a Mezzala and BWM in central midfield , also tried 2 BWM, the best role for my two central midfielders are BWM according to the advice. Adams and McKennie . 

I have also tried a tactic from JoshDaly on YouTube where he created a tactic based on BielsaBall , simulated a season by going on holiday and finished top 4! I tried that but still , maybe slightly better but still struggling near the bottom of the table. 

(Separate question : Is it a thing that teams get better results on simulated than playing the games?)

I then tried creating a narrow tactic with no wingers , Bamford as Pressing Forward and Rodrigo as an AMC with Shadow Striker role, still no real improvement and I don't really want to use a narrow tactic as Leeds have so many pacy wide players. 

 

[Johnny Ace]

Post your tactic up @NeilUK, see if there's anything obvious you can tweak

If you say the wide areas are Leeds strengths, focus on those, maybe a 4-3-3 with a DM letting the wingbacks go forward, or a 4-2-3-1 DM with Rodigo in a supporting role could work well  

[NeilUK]

24 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

Post your tactic up @NeilUK, see if there's anything obvious you can tweak

If you say the wide areas are Leeds strengths, focus on those, maybe a 4-3-3 with a DM letting the wingbacks go forward, or a 4-2-3-1 DM with Rodigo in a supporting role could work well  

Thanks Johnny, yes my old tactic in the previous game was focused on the wide players with overlap because Leeds' full backs are known for getting forward (defending not so much!!) but this update seems to have changed everything. The wide play doesn't seem to be working now, if I'm honest I think it was overpowered before. Harrison would often end the season with 30 or more goals from the Inverted Winger role. They just seem to have been a bit brutal with it now, I'll find a tactic I can settle on and post it , at the moment I am changing them too often. As an aside, JoshDaly on YouTube has posted that he will have to re-do the Leeds tactic he did after the update so it does seem to have changed things. 

I did just score 4 goals away at Leicester, problem is they scored 6!!! I made Patson Daka look like Mbappe!!

[Johnny Ace]

1 minute ago, NeilUK said:

Thanks Johnny, yes my old tactic in the previous game was focused on the wide players with overlap because Leeds' full backs are known for getting forward (defending not so much!!) but this update seems to have changed everything. The wide play doesn't seem to be working now, if I'm honest I think it was overpowered before. Harrison would often end the season with 30 or more goals from the Inverted Winger role. They just seem to have been a bit brutal with it now, I'll find a tactic I can settle on and post it , at the moment I am changing them too often. As an aside, JoshDaly on YouTube has posted that he will have to re-do the Leeds tactic he did after the update so it does seem to have changed things. 

Personally, I feel like the wings are still strong, especially Wingbacks  Wingbacks and IWs/IFs are a fantastic combo down the wings. Maybe craft a tactic and try and stick to it with just small tweaks here and there and I wouldn't worry about what YouTubers do, it wouldn't be much fun if they were posting tactics up that got them relegated  

5 minutes ago, NeilUK said:

I did just score 4 goals away at Leicester, problem is they scored 6!!! I made Patson Daka look like Mbappe!!

Ooof  I'm sure something can be done about that 

[NeilUK]

So frustrating now, I've realised its the momentum and confidence that's the issue rather than the tactic I was using . It's always been a feature that player's confidence and morale affects performance , as it should be of course but I think its overpowered now. For example after struggling with the wide tactic and using Inverted Wingers/Inside Forwards after the Leicester result I mentioned. I created a tactic using a DM as Deep Lying Playmaker (Marc Roca) and two central midfielders, usually Adams and McKennie, two Shadow Strikers as AMCs, Harrison and Gnonto with Bamford as a Pressing Forward. This would be September time in game , I just missed out on European Qualification that season by a point or two. A defeat to Man Utd in the last game meant I finished 9th instead of 7th but still beating the board's expectations. 

I start season 2 in great style a few new players in, I win 5 of my first 6 games , including Liverpool and Chelsea at home, my loss was Man City away so tough start. The loss to Man City was followed by a draw at home and then the defeats started, I now can't buy a win. Just seemed that one defeat followed by a couple without a win and my team's confidence and morale just fell like a stone. I tried a few team meetings and the player messages were all positive, they loved it! Then they go and lose 3-0 at home to bottom of the table Norwich!!! 

I know AI teams do adapt to your tactics but I do alternate at times and change certain aspects even if the formation is similar.

Edited March 30, 2023 by NeilUK

[Cloud9]

1 hour ago, NeilUK said:

So frustrating now, I've realised its the momentum and confidence that's the issue rather than the tactic I was using . It's always been a feature that player's confidence and morale affects performance , as it should be of course but I think its overpowered now. For example after struggling with the wide tactic and using Inverted Wingers/Inside Forwards after the Leicester result I mentioned. I created a tactic using a DM as Deep Lying Playmaker (Marc Roca) and two central midfielders, usually Adams and McKennie, two Shadow Strikers as AMCs, Harrison and Gnonto with Bamford as a Pressing Forward. This would be September time in game , I just missed out on European Qualification that season by a point or two. A defeat to Man Utd in the last game meant I finished 9th instead of 7th but still beating the board's expectations. 

I start season 2 in great style a few new players in, I win 5 of my first 6 games , including Liverpool and Chelsea at home, my loss was Man City away so tough start. The loss to Man City was followed by a draw at home and then the defeats started, I now can't buy a win. Just seemed that one defeat followed by a couple without a win and my team's confidence and morale just fell like a stone. I tried a few team meetings and the player messages were all positive, they loved it! Then they go and lose 3-0 at home to bottom of the table Norwich!!! 

I know AI teams do adapt to your tactics but I do alternate at times and change certain aspects even if the formation is similar.

Start of the season the AI is usually weak since their players aren't match sharp. 

Sounds like your players are struggling as the season progresses. Yes the AI adapts to you (and your perceived strength) but you could also be running them into the ground. If you're losing 3-0 to Norwich with good moral, that's probably the problem. I'd take a break and come back with fresh eyes.

Post your tactic tho lol

Edited March 30, 2023 by Cloud9