I don't know what makes a good striker anymore

[Gunblade]

Have this player for my struggling league one team:

 

Signed him in league 2 last season as a squad player since well, as you can see...

Attributes are ok but not great.

Ability was only 2 and half stars in league 2, National League standard.

 

Yet he ended crushing the league 2 scoring charts with 34 league goals in 41 games (Seriously not a flex), and he's practically single-handedly keeping me afloat in league one with 16 goals in 19 starts.

Look at him!

The only thing he has going for him is pace!

Compared to all my other strikers over the last and current season they are either better, (like the example below) or about the same but attributes spread over other areas (better finishing, better mentality).

Less than half the goals and second top striker.

I don't understand it. After all at the end of the day, FM is game based on numbers. And luck and coincidence over two seasons starts to trend to zero.

It's great Felix is a finishing legend, but apart from pace what else is there that he has that my other players don't have? Answer: nothing.

Is pace such a large attribute that I should only focus on that for my striker? I'm pretty sure that shouldn't be the case as while quite a few goals is him breaking away from the defense, he scores plenty when in the mix also.

Geniunely, I'm clueless. 

 

[HUNT3R]

I first thought about the difference in that one is right footed and the other left. That may have some influence depending on the type of chances you're creating, but:

Depending on the position/role they're playing, a player trait could be the difference - for example, if they play on a support duty, you will be able to clearly see the difference in runs made between Felix and Kamara. It may be that Felix gets more chances because of it.

They both played around the same amount of matches, but Felix has double the xG that Kamara has. That's a big clue. As mentioned, that player trait could make a difference. It looks like it's Kamara's first season, so perhaps he's still trying to fit in and getting used to the system as well?

You don't show the coach reports, but it could be that one is consistent and the other inconsistent, perhaps?

[Johnny Ace]

2 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

You don't show the coach reports, but it could be that one is consistent and the other inconsistent, perhaps?

First thing I thought

Post up the coach reports @Gunblade. Would be interesting to see 

Both played the same role as each other I take it?

[Gunblade]

The three other pros below is just can play multiple positions (AML, AMR), possesses pace (duh), and balanced personality.

LEADING PLAYER for Vanarama North/South XD in Cons.

And you can also see from the list how many other players are ahead of him in the ability pecking order.

Abu's report:

The bottom three pro's aren't anything special either:

Balanced and normal personality.

can improve a lot

a league one standard player.

And yup, both playing as advanced forward (attack).

Also I've had Felix on the left side of a duo strike force back in league 2 for a bit (not with Kamara), still a scoring legend. I'd imagine nothing much would change if I put Felix on the left and another striker on the right.

Edited March 14, 2022 by Gunblade

[Johnny Ace]

There's a little negative on Kamara being inconsistent but I don't think that would have a huge impact, unless he's in the 1-5 rating for Consistency. Maybe it is, there have been plenty of quality players that have under performed because they are inconsistent  

It's really interesting

Would you mind posting up your tactic? Just trying to figure if one benefits more from it than the other

[DarJ]

I haven't read everything yet but something that stands out immediately to me is his xG compared to the other player. His xG is almost double which means your team creates good chances for him and even if he's not that good, the probability of him scoring goals are higher than that of the other player just by looking at the quality of chances 

[HUNT3R]

2 minutes ago, DarJ said:

I haven't read everything yet but something that stands out immediately to me is his xG compared to the other player. His xG is almost double which means your team creates good chances for him and even if he's not that good, the probability of him scoring goals are higher than that of the other player just by looking at the quality of chances 

Yeah, that still stands out to me, as I mentioned earlier.

@Gunblade, how are you playing them? It looks like Felix is getting a lot more chances than Kamara. Would be great if you could show that, as @Johnny Ace asked.

[Johnny Ace]

Could be the ones playing versus easier opponents than the other re the XG. The team creates more chances vs a weaker team than it does vs a stronger team. Kamara's taken 3 penalties which will inflate that XG rating too making the open play difference even larger 

[Gunblade]

Standard 4-4-2

Switching between Defensive to Balanced, scores in all three mentalities.

[HUNT3R]

Okay, so they're playing in the same role, but not the same position. The difference here may well be down to where they're playing in the tactic, rather than the quality of the strikers.

Where are your assists coming from? With how you're setting up, it looks like it might be early crosses from the left to Felix, which takes advantage of his pace.

[Johnny Ace]

It's not what I thought above then about them playing against different teams 

[fc.cadoni]

Both has below average Decision, 7. 

[DarJ]

Also I don't think the fact that all players have personalized roles gives you consistency 

[Gunblade]

3 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

Okay, so they're playing in the same role, but not the same position. The difference here may well be down to where they're playing in the tactic, rather than the quality of the strikers.

Where are your assists coming from? With how you're setting up, it looks like it might be early crosses from the left to Felix, which takes advantage of his pace.

Ah but remember, I've had Felix both right and left. I'm confident I could put him on the left side and he'd still bang them in. Maaaybe a little less (or hell maybe even more, who knows) but I don't think that'd make a huge difference.

Assists wise Kamara is top with 7 followed by Felix himself with 6. Then it's CM viveros with 5 and right mid Helm with 4, after that it's dregs of 1 and 2's elsewhere split between rotated players.

[fc.cadoni]

The tactic itself has many flaws and conflicts. Take Long Kicks + Slow Pace Down is an example. Low Tempo + Players Roles which is based on Speed another example. BWM is for high pressing system; but not trying to hold the shape another example.

I am advice you to start from here:

 

[Johnny Ace]

1 minute ago, fc.cadoni said:

The tactic itself has many flaws and conflicts. Take Long Kicks + Slow Pace Down is an example. Low Tempo + Players Roles which is based on Speed another example. BWM is for high pressing system; but not trying to hold the shape another example.

I am advice you to start from here:

 

He's not asking for tactic help and it's working for him 

[HUNT3R]

7 minutes ago, Gunblade said:

Ah but remember, I've had Felix both right and left. I'm confident I could put him on the left side and he'd still bang them in. Maaaybe a little less (or hell maybe even more, who knows) but I don't think that'd make a huge difference.

Assists wise Kamara is top with 7 followed by Felix himself with 6. Then it's CM viveros with 5 and right mid Helm with 4, after that it's dregs of 1 and 2's elsewhere split between rotated players.

Thanks for the extra info. Why I mentioned the left wing is because I can see you getting good passing combinations there between the CWB, W and AP. The playmaker being a 'ball magnet' would certainly help that. I am guessing that Kamara gets dragged into that as well (possibly even pulling a defender with him) leaving more space for Felix.

With how that is set up and Kamara being better on the ball (in general) it would be interesting if you swap the two strikers. I would imagine that the supply from Felix to Kamara would be worse than the other way around, but Kamara might well do better at finishing the fewer chances he gets IF the fact that he's left footed isn't a problem.

If I were you though, I wouldn't make that change. It looks like it is working well!

[fc.cadoni]

2 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

He's not asking for tactic help and it's working for him 

OCD is killing me. 

[Johnny Ace]

5 minutes ago, fc.cadoni said:

OCD is killing me. 

[Gunblade]

9 minutes ago, fc.cadoni said:

The tactic itself has many flaws and conflicts. Take Long Kicks + Slow Pace Down is an example. Low Tempo + Players Roles which is based on Speed another example. BWM is for high pressing system; but not trying to hold the shape another example.

I am advice you to start from here:

 

Oh I remember reading about that and try to put some of those ideas into my roles.

Actual tactical instructions though...

Well...

Blame the Assistant manager XD (I do try to sort it out myself sometimes... sometimes.)

[Johnny Ace]

@HUNT3R nailed it there. The CWB & Winger will get high up on the pitch , possibly bringing more players from the opposition out with them, with the playmaker that side on the midfield, that left hand side will be the focus of play. Kamara probably gets outnumbered so Felix has an easier time of it  

Just for interest's sake @Gunblade, who scores the most out of the wingers?

[Gunblade]

The right side Helm has 4 goals.

My left side though is weaker quality wise and gets rotated often though it also totals around 4 between the 3 players I rotate between (though more games required).

[Mars_Blackmon]

I’ve always said attributes don’t matter as much as they should. For one, things like pace is OP.If he’s faster than everyone else then he’s going to get chances. Especially with a well put together tactic.

 

It’s a reason way we can plug and play most tactics. Attributes don’t matter as much as it should. It’s very telling when you can put a tall GK near post for corner kicks and score hella Goals with him…

[Mars_Blackmon]

4 hours ago, fc.cadoni said:

The tactic itself has many flaws and conflicts. Take Long Kicks + Slow Pace Down is an example. Low Tempo + Players Roles which is based on Speed another example. BWM is for high pressing system; but not trying to hold the shape another example.

I am advice you to start from here:

 

Lol despite that he seems to be doing just fine. The game is obviously unbalanced in this area.

[kandersson]

Interesting.

I think maybe Felix with his set of traits (gets forward whenever possibile) and attributes (pace, acceleration but also strength, agility and balance) tends to naturally assume a 'more advanced' AF role and focus on just finishing and creating chances for himself, while Kamara might use his superior mental/technical attributes to make more versatile movement off the ball and work as a more complete forward? Just a guess, btw I see Kamara also takes penalties so goals and XG comparison with Felix is even more surprising 

Does Felix have other Player Traits (we can only see gets forward whenever possible, knocks ball past opponents and gets crowd going)?

Edited March 14, 2022 by kandersson

[GreenTriangle]

If the invisible trait is "runs with ball often" then this is a very powerful combination of traits ... but only if the player is really fast, determined and brave. Anyway, it also depends on his opponents. When he'll deal with better opponents, it will probably be harder and harder for him to score.

[santy001]

Scoring goals makes a good striker. The rest is purely academic. If he fits your team well and scores a lot hold on to him. 

Some players will just be the right blend and work in your setup. 

[Gunblade]

On 15/03/2022 at 18:02, GreenTriangle said:

If the invisible trait is "runs with ball often" then this is a very powerful combination of traits ... but only if the player is really fast, determined and brave. Anyway, it also depends on his opponents. When he'll deal with better opponents, it will probably be harder and harder for him to score.

He does indeed have that trait XD

Well, I know how train my strikers the next time I get a fast one (Assuming his dribbling is also at least passable).

 

After loading up my game I noticed that you can't train a player to get forward as often as possible or am I overlooking the training trait?

Edited March 17, 2022 by Gunblade

[Svenc]

If one forward has basically almost double the amount of xG (league stats), this will be down to the team's and his behavior (tactics, PPMs, etc), and the patterns of play that continously emerge out of those. Basically, one of the forward will see much more of the ball in finishing situations, whereas the other will not. It is notable that the forward with lesser xG even had it boosted by 2 penaltys (whopping ~0.7xGs each), else it would look even "worse". The gulf is simply  far too large to be simply down to attributes -- it's the repeat patterns of play that emerge. Plus it's not like both the forwards are leagues apparts in base attributes as well.

Re: Attributes. Debatable if the succceed, but SI have always tried to do somewhat of a simulation. Despite public perception being otherwise and fans as well as pundits arguing some players were absolute ***** and some godlike, players (and forwards) in particular on their level aren't as far apart as is perceived. (Which is also one of the reasons why on every release there's players to get barely average forwards scoring plenty-- whereas others struggle to get Messi going). It's not that Messi's that much more deadly (though he's one of the few elite players who outperform their xG every season.). It's like that he has multiple times the chances than your average forward per match (at least at Barca, his shot volume has come down significantly ever since his move to PSG). Which is party down to skill, but also the way how guys like these are continuously fed by their team mates and made the focal points of play almost every other attack (CR7's shot volume alone average throughout his career sits at like like ~6 per match, which is almost thrice as much as your average forward. It's probably no wonder that Benzema started to score more goals at Madrid when he left, obviously a huge part of Real's play consisted of feeding their starlet prior.)

Any competitive sports is about margins of edges on absolutely any level. If you compete with Messi, chances are you're already pretty damn good at what your doing, belonging to a seleect few of elite players of your generation. 

On that note, even if you'd put a defender in front of the opposition goal as a lone forward and would feed the ball to him all match, eventually he's going to score some goals. In that I challenge the notion that scoring regularly does necessarily indicate that a player must be an above average forward. Any player put in front of the opposition goal and scoring some eventually only does his job in the team -- like a keeper would if he'd faced some shots or a play maker if he provided some key passes. No more, no less. What makes an above average forward is that he'd score more than you'd expect off him given his chances presented -- and/or carving out chances for himself (or others) that else may not have existed. And that over a longer period, as matches, even isolated fully league seasons, are always goingn to be influenced by large amounts of chance.

Edited March 20, 2022 by Svenc