[FM21] Entering the Mysterious Paths of the 4231 DM Wide - Help Needed

[Keyzer Soze]

Hi,

Just a little introduction to the reason of the this thread.

I've been playing the game since the old CM times, and i think, from what i can recall, i've always play with some kind of formation: 4123 DM Wide.

Some years i could go with the variation with the flat 3 in the midfield, or with the wingbacks playing in the DM strata, but it was always around that idea of 4 in the back, 3 in the middle and 3 guys in front.

With the years passing by, and with me skipping FM22, things got a little boring so, why not trying a different formation.

Endend up messing around the 4231 DM Wide. Saw threads from @Cleon and @crusadertsar, a lot of videos from @Rashidi, saw the descriptions from players roles that i never used, like the Segundo Volante, the Engache, even go to the rate my tactic site to see how my ideas would work on paper (not very well by the way), and.... end up with a tactic and so many doubts...

 

 

The basic idea behind the players roles and duties is, in attack, having a main creator (AP) to make trough passes for the AF and the IF, with the Volante arriving late. The attacking width is provided by the Winger+Wingback on the life and by the wingback on the right, while the HB provided the defensive cover.

In defense, i want to take advantage of having 4 guys in front, so i think it makes sense to press high, with instructions to counter-press and to counter attack.

To obtain these, i've went with these team instructions:

Mentality: Balance/Positive (depending on the opponent)

In Possession: Play Out Of Defense, Whipped Crosses

In Transition: Distribute Quickly, Counter, Counter-Press

Out of Possession: Higher D-Line, Higher LOE, Press More

I also added some instructions to the AP(s): More direct passes, dribble more, roam from position. Like i said i what him to drift around the pitch and make some killer passes to the AF and IF.

 

I don't have many skills, and knowledge, in terms of analysing the game and what i see in the pitch, so some doubts come to my mind:

1) Does it make sence to push the AP more to the left? The idea was for him to make more space for the forwards runs from the right IF. 

2) Does these players roles/duties go well with the team instructions? According with the rate my tactic site, this tactic has a low support and solidity score on the right side. Why?

3) Is the Segundo Volante also a kind of a playmaker, and if so, should a choose another role for the AP? Perhaps a AMC(s)?

4) Should i give the instruction to dribble more and take more risks to the Segundo Volante?

Thank you in advanced.

[Johnny Ace]

I think RMT looks a little broken, the right CD is forming a partnership with the IF? 

I don't think you can have a Half-back in the left DM slot? Well, you might be able to but the idea is he drops in-between the centre backs so having a HB dead centre makes the most sense (in my FM brain anyway)

57 minutes ago, Keyzer Soze said:

1) Does it make sence to push the AP more to the left? The idea was for him to make more space for the forwards runs from the right IF. 

I don't think an IF(A) and AF(A) makes sense, that's two of the most attacking roles in the game, it's like playing a 4-4-2 with two number 9's. I think an IF(S) here is just fine

I guess it makes logical sense to switch the AMC to AMLC, it's something a bit different so you might have to run it and have a look for yourself but I think the AP(S) will be deep enough not to block any of the IF's movement 

57 minutes ago, Keyzer Soze said:

2) Does these players roles/duties go well with the team instructions? According with the rate my tactic site, this tactic has a low support and solidity score on the right side. Why?

The IF(A), Wingback and Volante probably, Wings backs get forward, so do Volantes. The IF(A) like I said, he's pretty much a wide striker eg think Salah I'd probably change the HB to a DM(D/S) and change the Wingbacks to Fullbacks depending on how the DM base is set. ie more stable DMs the more attacking fullbacks (the position, not the role) you can get away with 

57 minutes ago, Keyzer Soze said:

3) Is the Segundo Volante also a kind of a playmaker, and if so, should a choose another role for the AP? Perhaps a AMC(s)?

No, the Volante isn't a playmaker.  Playmakers in FM attract the ball, have more creative freedom and take more risks( passes into space), a Volante does none of those. Think of the Volante as a deep Box to Box midfielder 

57 minutes ago, Keyzer Soze said:

4) Should i give the instruction to dribble more and take more risks to the Segundo Volante?

Completely up to you, if the player has the ability, absolutely  

Your TI's looks fine, just watch a few games with them and see if it plays out like you want

 

ETA: 4-2-3-1 DM is a great formation to use in FM

I'd base something similar, like this

 

                       AF(A)

W(S)               AP(S)              IF(S)

              VOL(S)         DM(D)

FB(S)      CD(D)          CD(D)  WB(A) 

The Volante then has the freedom to explore that channel inbetween the Winger and AP. The FB(S) is then more conservative on the left, the WB(A) on the right has a bit more licence to attack because of the DM on that side of the pitch and can overlap the IF. The AF then gets plenty of support he's being fed chances from every angle. It's pretty flexible DM(S)/ WB(S) on the right, the Volante could be on Attack or the Fullback could be on Attack on the left

Seeing as you mention the Enganche, I was playing around with one in 4-2-3-1 DM toward the end of the FM21 

Something like this

 

                        CF(A)

W(S)                ENG(S)             IF(S)

             VOL(A)            DM(S)

FB(S)     CD(D)             CD(D)      FB(A)

I need to have a play in FM22 with it, problem is finding teams with the suitable players 

[Poison]

5 hours ago, Johnny Ace said:

I think RMT looks a little broken, the right CD is forming a partnership with the IF? 

 What's wrong with that? I assume it refers to the passing. If you see this at RMT, i believe it would be best if you switch to a ball-playing defender which will have a more expansive passive range.

[Johnny Ace]

1 minute ago, Poison said:

 What's wrong with that? I assume it refers to the passing. If you see this at RMT, i believe it would be best if you switch to a ball-playing defender which will have a more expansive passive range.

It refers to movement 

[Keyzer Soze]

7 hours ago, Johnny Ace said:

I think RMT looks a little broken, the right CD is forming a partnership with the IF? 

I don't think you can have a Half-back in the left DM slot? Well, you might be able to but the idea is he drops in-between the centre backs so having a HB dead centre makes the most sense (in my FM brain anyway)

I don't think an IF(A) and AF(A) makes sense, that's two of the most attacking roles in the game, it's like playing a 4-4-2 with two number 9's. I think an IF(S) here is just fine

I guess it makes logical sense to switch the AMC to AMLC, it's something a bit different so you might have to run it and have a look for yourself but I think the AP(S) will be deep enough not to block any of the IF's movement 

The IF(A), Wingback and Volante probably, Wings backs get forward, so do Volantes. The IF(A) like I said, he's pretty much a wide striker eg think Salah I'd probably change the HB to a DM(D/S) and change the Wingbacks to Fullbacks depending on how the DM base is set. ie more stable DMs the more attacking fullbacks (the position, not the role) you can get away with 

No, the Volante isn't a playmaker.  Playmakers in FM attract the ball, have more creative freedom and take more risks( passes into space), a Volante does none of those. Think of the Volante as a deep Box to Box midfielder 

Completely up to you, if the player has the ability, absolutely  

Your TI's looks fine, just watch a few games with them and see if it plays out like you want

 

ETA: 4-2-3-1 DM is a great formation to use in FM

I'd base something similar, like this

 

                       AF(A)

W(S)               AP(S)              IF(S)

              VOL(S)         DM(D)

FB(S)      CD(D)          CD(D)  WB(A) 

The Volante then has the freedom to explore that channel inbetween the Winger and AP. The FB(S) is then more conservative on the left, the WB(A) on the right has a bit more licence to attack because of the DM on that side of the pitch and can overlap the IF. The AF then gets plenty of support he's being fed chances from every angle. It's pretty flexible DM(S)/ WB(S) on the right, the Volante could be on Attack or the Fullback could be on Attack on the left

Seeing as you mention the Enganche, I was playing around with one in 4-2-3-1 DM toward the end of the FM21 

Something like this

 

                        CF(A)

W(S)                ENG(S)             IF(S)

             VOL(A)            DM(S)

FB(S)     CD(D)             CD(D)      FB(A)

I need to have a play in FM22 with it, problem is finding teams with the suitable players 

@Johnny Ace

Thank you for the time and detail explanation. 

I understand your point regarding the two forwards, AF+IF, both with attack dutie, but if I change the IF to a support dutie I'll get all players in the AM strata with a support dutie, leaving just the AF to actually attack the box. 

I also appreciate the point about the HB, when is playing ahead of the CD. 

So, I've change a bit my formation. I want to keep two guys with attack dutie upfront, so I end up with this:

                           DLF(a) 

              W(s)       AP(s)       IW(a) 

                  DM(d)     VOL(s) 

        WB(a)   CD(d)    CD(d)     FB(s) 

                             SK(s) 

I think the VOL+IW combo  can work well in the right side, with a more conservative FB(s) providing the cover. 

About the player instructions to the VOL, atm I don't have a player that gives me 100% to that role. Playing with Samaris, from Benfica. He has the right mental and physical attributes, but lack the right technical ones. So for now I'll leave with the default instructions. 

So far, this tactic, is working well. 8 games, 8 wins, 18 goals for, 5 against. Good win against Marseille win the champions league. I'm playing with Benfica. Curious to know how this will work against the top sides in the Portuguese league (Porto and Sporting). 

 

Edited April 6, 2022 by Keyzer Soze

[Johnny Ace]

That looks great @Keyzer Soze, all the best with it 

[andrewsgn]

I actually think the HB works OK in the left/right DM slots. They still drop in between the centre backs from a side DM position, much like they do when played centrally. The only issue I've encountered playing 2 DM's is IWBs will not cut inside properly. 

EDIT - Just noticed this was FM21 so not 100% sure the HB works in FM21. It does in FM22.

Edited April 6, 2022 by andrewsgn

[Keyzer Soze]

26 minutes ago, andrewsgn said:

I actually think the HB works OK in the left/right DM slots. They still drop in between the centre backs from a side DM position, much like they do when played centrally. The only issue I've encountered playing 2 DM's is IWBs will not cut inside properly. 

Yeah 

I've notice this too. 

IWB won't cut inside I this formation. 

Something that I think should work 

For example, playing with a VOL(a), when he goes forward, the IWB should cut inside to occupied that space. 

[Johnny Ace]

10 hours ago, Keyzer Soze said:

For example, playing with a VOL(a), when he goes forward, the IWB should cut inside to occupied that space. 

There's nothing wrong with setting up a friendly and hawking these roles to watch how they behave

Try a HB in the DMCL/R and see where he sits while your team defend, try an IWB and a DM and see how they interact  Part of the FM fun 

[prched55]

15 hours ago, Keyzer Soze said:

IWB won't cut inside I this formation. 

Something that I think should work 

For example, playing with a VOL(a), when he goes forward, the IWB should cut inside to occupied that space. 

 

16 hours ago, andrewsgn said:

The only issue I've encountered playing 2 DM's is IWBs will not cut inside properly. 

This is something hardcoded into the IWB role for some reason. It might have changed in FM22. You could always play a FB(s) and tell him to sit narrower, cut inside with ball, roam from position, cross less often, etc. He should act similarly to the IWB then.