Too much weight on Silverware when applying for jobs?

[wardog]

I'm not really sure where to post this. But here goes. I feel when applying for jobs clubs are looking almost solely at what player has won.  In a recent save i started i started a Glory Hunter with Union Berlin. Now we know how strong Bayern are this year, and rightly so. I'm now into season 4. And this is whats prompted me to post this. 

My record at Union Berlin is as follows. 

Season 1 - 6th place in Bundesliga, Semis of Pokal, Semis of Europa Conference. 

Season 2 - 4th place in Bundesliga, Quarters of Europa League, Pokal Third Round (Drew Bayern Away) 

Season 3 - 3rd in Bundesliga, Quarters of Champions League, Runners up in Pokal. 

During this time applying for other jobs I've had 1 single interview. Any other jobs (even a job like Villa/Leicester) are stating while they view me as a good candidate my lack of silverware puts them off (all bar spurs have said this, their reason was my entertaining football i played). So what we're saying is change the results of one 90 min game (the pokal final) I'm open to interviews with top clubs. But without that I'm not even open to any mid table clubs. 

I struggle to believe this is how football would work in real life. We see all the time young managers who're showing strong signs of progress getting bigger jobs regularly. 

[KingCanary]

33 minutes ago, wardog said:

I'm not really sure where to post this. But here goes. I feel when applying for jobs clubs are looking almost solely at what player has won.  In a recent save i started i started a Glory Hunter with Union Berlin. Now we know how strong Bayern are this year, and rightly so. I'm now into season 4. And this is whats prompted me to post this. 

My record at Union Berlin is as follows. 

Season 1 - 6th place in Bundesliga, Semis of Pokal, Semis of Europa Conference. 

Season 2 - 4th place in Bundesliga, Quarters of Europa League, Pokal Third Round (Drew Bayern Away) 

Season 3 - 3rd in Bundesliga, Quarters of Champions League, Runners up in Pokal. 

During this time applying for other jobs I've had 1 single interview. Any other jobs (even a job like Villa/Leicester) are stating while they view me as a good candidate my lack of silverware puts them off (all bar spurs have said this, their reason was my entertaining football i played). So what we're saying is change the results of one 90 min game (the pokal final) I'm open to interviews with top clubs. But without that I'm not even open to any mid table clubs. 

I struggle to believe this is how football would work in real life. We see all the time young managers who're showing strong signs of progress getting bigger jobs regularly. 

I agree, it is something I've noticed too. Winning a domestic cup sends your stock soaring in a way that beating expectations in the League doesn't. 

[Neil Brock]

Generally in game you'll get better reputation for winning trophies, significant achievements (such as promotion) and for winning individual awards. 

Overachieving, qualifying for Europe and reaching later rounds of competitions help, but won't do as much for your reputation across the game.  

[wardog]

13 minutes ago, Neil Brock said:

Generally in game you'll get better reputation for winning trophies, significant achievements (such as promotion) and for winning individual awards. 

Overachieving, qualifying for Europe and reaching later rounds of competitions help, but won't do as much for your reputation across the game.  

And I accept thats valid, my point is right now theres too much a weight on this. I think a manager whos taken a relegation expected team to champions league latter stages would be getting offers. We finished a point behind dortmund last season in third. Fighting for second again season 4. I cant even get job interviews - this is also starting on highest rep. A west ham side that got relegated to championship refused me even an interview on this basis. 

id suggest consistent overachievement would be worth more than winning a trophy especially when you see the gap between Bayern and the rest in the league. The full reason for not even getting interviews was lack of silverware. Thus even a side just relegated are wanting a manager with a history of silverware to come in and wouldnt even interview a someone whos consistently overachieved on a mid table/lower end budget. Given we've made deep runs in these competitions too its not a one off. Essentially theres been a 90 min window that either means loads of job interviews or none. And that IMO would suggest the system is wrong. 

[Draakon]

I agree with OP. In real life there are plenty of examples of big clubs appointing overachieving managers who have had little success trophy-wise, but have proven their tactical knowledge and leadership/man management skills. 

Examples: Julian Nagelsmann to Bayern, Nuno Espirito Santos from Wolves to Tottenham, David Moyes from Everton to ManU. Erik ten Hag from Utrecht to Ajax. 

[johnnycnandy]

I definitely agree with this. I raised the point in a previous post. I think the manager reputations need to be more dynamic. There are way too many  managers aged 60+ in the top jobs as the game goes on, because no younger managers have a high enough reputation due to not winning trophies. If you take a team predicted to finish 15th to the top 5, there should be a big bump in reputation. Overperformance in the league is definitely not rewarded enough in the current game.  

[rusty217]

On 29/04/2022 at 17:42, Draakon said:

I agree with OP. In real life there are plenty of examples of big clubs appointing overachieving managers who have had little success trophy-wise, but have proven their tactical knowledge and leadership/man management skills. 

Examples: Julian Nagelsmann to Bayern, Nuno Espirito Santos from Wolves to Tottenham, David Moyes from Everton to ManU. Erik ten Hag from Utrecht to Ajax. 

Worth mentioning that every one of those had won a manager of the year award (and multiple manager of the month awards for Nuno/David) before that move though. Neil Brock above mentioned winning individual awards counts more than "just" overachieving at your club, so similar moves might be possible too.

[Prepper_Jack]

On 22/04/2022 at 04:37, wardog said:

I think a manager whos taken a relegation expected team to champions league latter stages would be getting offers.

Have been meaning to bug this. In my current save, I've taken a team from second division Sweden to first, as relegation candidates. Then I battled in first division against relegation for 4 years, until getting promoted to first division elite. I'm getting job offers from clubs, though they say this is despite my inability to steer clubs away from relegation. Think it used to track this better in prior versions... or at least they didn't mention it.

[thehig2]

agree with this, I often do journeyman saves and my rep doesn't increase much until I win a trophy. 

If I have finished in top 4 with a team who expected relegation, you would except some interest, or the game to somehow acknowledge this when you apply for other jobs.

[wardog]

Im going to add to this now as i want to compare 2 saves ive got here - One is on Mozza's independent Scotland Database (steam workshop) so unsure if thats a factor. the Other is my glory hunter with where i started with Union Berlin. 

Save 1 - build a nation i started in 6th tier of scottish football, resigned after like 10 games got a mid table job in 5th tier before getting a tier 4 promotion job. Back to back promotions via title wins before leaving for a midtable spfl prem club. Second season there we'd got 2 runners up in cups and a 2nd place league finish I was getting job offers from Man Utd and Newcastle. We won league and Premier Sports cup season 3 and spfl title, got offered real madrid and Rangers job - i accepted the latter with it being a build a nation. Starting rep Sunday league no badges

Save 2 - glory hunter started with union berlin, Season 1 semis of pokal and Europa Conference 5th in league, season 2 4th in league and quarters in europa league. Season 3 3rd i league pokal runners up and cl quarter finals. Season 4 pokal winners third in league and quarters in cl. - After winning pokal i got my first job offer at monaco which i accepted. Starting rep max and all badges

Which of these 2 cvs are better - id argue save 2 should be opening doors, yet a scottish league 2 and 1 win is getting higher weight in getting job offers. Im getting offered jobs in save 1 i couldnt even get an interview for in save 2 - the basis SILVERWARE. Is Winning Scottish league one and two actually more impressive than what i did at union berlin - that summer monaco was the only "top team" to actually offer me an interview too, rest were still declining due to my lack of silverware. 

This for me clarely highlights this is a major bug

[Neil Brock]

57 minutes ago, wardog said:

Im going to add to this now as i want to compare 2 saves ive got here - One is on Mozza's independent Scotland Database (steam workshop) so unsure if thats a factor. the Other is my glory hunter with where i started with Union Berlin. 

Save 1 - build a nation i started in 6th tier of scottish football, resigned after like 10 games got a mid table job in 5th tier before getting a tier 4 promotion job. Back to back promotions via title wins before leaving for a midtable spfl prem club. Second season there we'd got 2 runners up in cups and a 2nd place league finish I was getting job offers from Man Utd and Newcastle. We won league and Premier Sports cup season 3 and spfl title, got offered real madrid and Rangers job - i accepted the latter with it being a build a nation. Starting rep Sunday league no badges

Save 2 - glory hunter started with union berlin, Season 1 semis of pokal and Europa Conference 5th in league, season 2 4th in league and quarters in europa league. Season 3 3rd i league pokal runners up and cl quarter finals. Season 4 pokal winners third in league and quarters in cl. - After winning pokal i got my first job offer at monaco which i accepted. Starting rep max and all badges

Which of these 2 cvs are better - id argue save 2 should be opening doors, yet a scottish league 2 and 1 win is getting higher weight in getting job offers. Im getting offered jobs in save 1 i couldnt even get an interview for in save 2 - the basis SILVERWARE. Is Winning Scottish league one and two actually more impressive than what i did at union berlin - that summer monaco was the only "top team" to actually offer me an interview too, rest were still declining due to my lack of silverware. 

This for me clarely highlights this is a major bug

There are a whole host of factors in play which means this isn't really a comparable test. Different reps, a custom db etc. 

Realistically a manager who starts with a max starting rep and all badges could be offered the very best jobs straight from the off. The frequency of you being approached may not be as high given a number of other factors (contract length, salary etc). 

Whilst it could be tweaked to make it even more realistic to real life, there's not really anything we've seen that suggests there's an underlying issue here and certainly not something you would class as a major bug. But again, we're always happy to look at examples in fair testing environments. 

Thanks.