Scoring goals help.

[Captain Blackadder]

So i've been looking for advice in the quick discussion thread and someone mentioned creating a thread to get a better idea of what's wrong. I'm doing a youth challenge with Colchester so i can't sign anyone and have to tailor my tactics to the abilities of my players.

I've got lots of midfielders with good technique who are best playing centrally and struggle playing out wide and are bad at scoring goals. I've got 1 decent striker who can't score with his feet but is very good at scoring headers, but needs players around him otherwise he plays really bad. I also have full backs who are good going forward and are decent crossers and get a decent amount of assists.

After playing a normal 433 with the striker up front on his own it didn't go very well. The striker was isolated and i really struggled to create chances so i changed it to a false 9 and changed midfield roles. Surprisingly the striker was excellent as a playmaker in the no.10 role and generally this tactic was very good for me. I took inspiration from Man City with this tactic and their ability to score goals even without a recognized striker.

As i said the tactic was a very effective one. I generally had over 60% possession, created between 15-20 chances a match and often had an xg of over 2 per match. The issue is though is that the finishing was appalling and over the past season or so i've only scored over 1 goal in a match a handful of times. I've tried a few matches with a narrow formation but largely have the same problems and my job is under threat and unless i start scoring i'm set for the sack. Below are my key players for midfield and my only decent striker.

Dion Lester

Noah Chilvers

Donell Thomas

Taizo Marcel

Martin Okyere

James Williams

As you can see lots of good technique although the players that say they can play wide struggle out there no matter what role they play.

Jake Hutchinson (only decent striker)

Despite the fact his heading is only decent it's the way he can score goals. Give him a chance to his feet and he can't score for toffee but is a beast in the air.

I've tried various formations and tactical styles but always have a problem scoring, what can i do? Any help is appreciated.

[Johnny Ace]

Okay mate, to put it bluntly, I'm not surprised you're struggling 

Your striker looks like he could be a decent Poacher, I'd have some faith in him and find a way to supply him with chances and have movement around him

As you're LL, I highly suggest using a simple combination of roles, nothing fancy like the IWB or Mezzela, just a nice simple formation with as few instructions as possible

 

[Captain Blackadder]

13 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

Okay mate, to put it bluntly, I'm not surprised you're struggling 

Your striker looks like he could be a decent Poacher, I'd have some faith in him and find a way to supply him with chances and have movement around him

As you're LL, I highly suggest using a simple combination of roles, nothing fancy like the IWB or Mezzela, just a nice simple formation with as few instructions as possible

 

I agree the striker is decent, but is allergic to scoring with his feet and misses so many easy chances and one on ones. I do need to simplify things although i maintain that tactic with a better team could be brilliant. With the players above what roles could i play around the striker as they tend to struggle out wide no matter what formation or style i try to play.

[Johnny Ace]

A simple 4-2-3-1 can be good for a Poacher, I used one in Wales for a 16 year old Poacher who was the leagues top scorer but I can't find the tactic for the life of me 

He's your best finisher and is no slouch so I'd use him upfront 

Seeing as he's good on his head, I'd use a Winger and a couple of roles that cross early

                                   P(A)

 

IW/ IF(S)                AM/AP (S/A)              IW/W(S)

 

                   CM(D)                    CM(S)

 

WB(S)          CD(D)                  CD(D)             FB(S)

 

Just something really simple like that, two deep crossers in the fullback position. Two support roles out wide, a Winger that can cross on to his head and will cross from deep but it depends which players you prefer. An IF(S) can create chances for him  and score himself or an IW(S) to sweep balls to his feet. Seeing as a lot of your wide guys are right footed, I'd go for the IF(S) and Winger(S) combo. Then in the AMC slot you could have AP on Support to support play from deep or on Attack to get forward a bit and get him dribbling on the ball. Just a plain AM on Support or Attack here would be fine too, you can always switch the role when chasing or protecting a lead. 

For instructions, keep it really simple, I'd just use the Positive mentality, play out from the back if you want, press a bit more urgently with the top heavy formation and that would probably be it 

[Atarin]

Mate, your tactic made my eyes bleed. Don't worry about who can play where. Keep it simple. If you've got someone who can do a job out wide then stick them out there. Get some balls in the box. There's nothing wrong with an old fashioned 4-4-2 or 4-4-1-1 or even a 4-2-3-1 to get your team motoring. Your striker should be fine if you create good quality chances for him. The problem may well be that you're not creating a lot of chances and the ones you do create are not simple. I generally play 4-4-2 regardless of what the position indicators tell me about my squad. If they've got the attributes and don't have any obviously counter-productive PPMs then you're set. Get one winger up the line, one winger pinging balls from deeper. Get one forward dropping into space, another getting in behind. Get both midfielders on CM(s) and both fullbacks on FB(s) unless you've got one who can get up the line. In which case pair him with your deeper winger. It's not complicated.

Success is guaranteed with 4-4-2 and players with the right attitude.

[HUNT3R]

You have a good scorer, relatively speaking, but I cannot see where you're using him in that tactic. Your tactic looks to want to set the wide players free but they cannot finish well. I'd really re-think the plan.  None of the others seem good at finishing chances, so it might be worth looking into a 2 striker tactic, with one a creator and one (the only one) a scorer.

[Captain Blackadder]

16 hours ago, Atarin said:

Mate, your tactic made my eyes bleed. Don't worry about who can play where. Keep it simple. If you've got someone who can do a job out wide then stick them out there. Get some balls in the box. There's nothing wrong with an old fashioned 4-4-2 or 4-4-1-1 or even a 4-2-3-1 to get your team motoring. Your striker should be fine if you create good quality chances for him. The problem may well be that you're not creating a lot of chances and the ones you do create are not simple. I generally play 4-4-2 regardless of what the position indicators tell me about my squad. If they've got the attributes and don't have any obviously counter-productive PPMs then you're set. Get one winger up the line, one winger pinging balls from deeper. Get one forward dropping into space, another getting in behind. Get both midfielders on CM(s) and both fullbacks on FB(s) unless you've got one who can get up the line. In which case pair him with your deeper winger. It's not complicated.

Success is guaranteed with 4-4-2 and players with the right attitude.

 

15 hours ago, HUNT3R said:

You have a good scorer, relatively speaking, but I cannot see where you're using him in that tactic. Your tactic looks to want to set the wide players free but they cannot finish well. I'd really re-think the plan.  None of the others seem good at finishing chances, so it might be worth looking into a 2 striker tactic, with one a creator and one (the only one) a scorer.

I feel i should have provided more info. That wasn't my primary tactic and i had tried various formations, 442 443 4231 but i couldn't get any of them to work and the striker only managed a couple of goals in those formations. And as i said i have no out and out wingers and those players above struggle out wide. I also had problems conceding lots of chances so i tried that tactic on a whim as i was getting desperate with the aim of constant possession so i don't concede so many chances. Like i said the tactic was excellent and i create so much more chances than the normal formations but i still couldn't score. Ironically in that formation the striker played as the 10 and got 9 goals in that position which has been his best return to date for me.

Funny though is after posting here and going back to trying more traditional formations i was still impotent. I tried 4231 for a few matches and didn't go well and also 442 and doing better but still bottling loads of chances. Then the striker got ruled out for 6 weeks and the next game i won 4-0 and could have been so much more.

[HUNT3R]

Constantly changing tactics won't help as you'll always battle with tactical familiarity. During the season, I'd rather analyse what's going wrong and make smaller changes to the already familiar tactic.

[herne79]

22 minutes ago, Captain Blackadder said:

 

I feel i should have provided more info. That wasn't my primary tactic and i had tried various formations, 442 443 4231 but i couldn't get any of them to work and the striker only managed a couple of goals in those formations. And as i said i have no out and out wingers and those players above struggle out wide. I also had problems conceding lots of chances so i tried that tactic on a whim as i was getting desperate with the aim of constant possession so i don't concede so many chances. Like i said the tactic was excellent and i create so much more chances than the normal formations but i still couldn't score. Ironically in that formation the striker played as the 10 and got 9 goals in that position which has been his best return to date for me.

Funny though is after posting here and going back to trying more traditional formations i was still impotent. I tried 4231 for a few matches and didn't go well and also 442 and doing better but still bottling loads of chances. Then the striker got ruled out for 6 weeks and the next game i won 4-0 and could have been so much more.

Your problem isn't the striker.  It very rarely is.  99% of the time the problem is how he's being used in the system and the manager chopping & changing every 5 minutes.  Getting lots of chances is not the same thing as getting good chances - even if it may look like some of them are.

What's happened here is you've accidentally stumbled across something which seems to work after lots and lots of trial and error, probably without really understanding what each system you've tried does.  I'm not being disingenuous, it's happened to most of us .

If you want to learn, first of all you need patience.  Lots and lots of patience.  Even if it means you have a throw away save that you try things out in.  Then you start off small.  You pick a formation you want to play with, you pick some roles that you think look ok, might work well together and which may suit your players.  Don't just go by what the game tells you are suitable roles for your players - think about what the roles are designed to do (read descriptions, look at the standard player instructions they come with).  Leave mentality on Balanced, forget about team and player instructions.  TIs and PIs are only really there to help you define a certain style of play and/or to overcome a certain issue you might notice.

Play a match.  How did it go?  What looked good, what looked bad?  Did your players move as expected after you read the role descriptions?  The result is immaterial at this point.  Now play another match against a different opponent.  How did that go?  What looked good and bad?  Did the same things look good and bad?  Now play a 3rd match without any changes.  Do you now notice any patterns?  A single match can throw up oddities that you can't really do anything about, but similar issues over several matches will throw up inconsistencies which you can do something about.

Now add in a small change - perhaps one or two Team Instructions which you think might help with issues you've noticed.  Play another match.  Did the changes work?  No?  Then undo your changes and try something else.  Yes?  now we're getting somewhere.

Rinse and repeat.

This may seem slow and tedious (I did say you'll need patience!) but once you start getting the hang of things it'll become second nature.  Usually .

[Captain Blackadder]

10 minutes ago, herne79 said:

Your problem isn't the striker.  It very rarely is.  99% of the time the problem is how he's being used in the system and the manager chopping & changing every 5 minutes.  Getting lots of chances is not the same thing as getting good chances - even if it may look like some of them are.

What's happened here is you've accidentally stumbled across something which seems to work after lots and lots of trial and error, probably without really understanding what each system you've tried does.  I'm not being disingenuous, it's happened to most of us .

If you want to learn, first of all you need patience.  Lots and lots of patience.  Even if it means you have a throw away save that you try things out in.  Then you start off small.  You pick a formation you want to play with, you pick some roles that you think look ok, might work well together and which may suit your players.  Don't just go by what the game tells you are suitable roles for your players - think about what the roles are designed to do (read descriptions, look at the standard player instructions they come with).  Leave mentality on Balanced, forget about team and player instructions.  TIs and PIs are only really there to help you define a certain style of play and/or to overcome a certain issue you might notice.

Play a match.  How did it go?  What looked good, what looked bad?  Did your players move as expected after you read the role descriptions?  The result is immaterial at this point.  Now play another match against a different opponent.  How did that go?  What looked good and bad?  Did the same things look good and bad?  Now play a 3rd match without any changes.  Do you now notice any patterns?  A single match can throw up oddities that you can't really do anything about, but similar issues over several matches will throw up inconsistencies which you can do something about.

Now add in a small change - perhaps one or two Team Instructions which you think might help with issues you've noticed.  Play another match.  Did the changes work?  No?  Then undo your changes and try something else.  Yes?  now we're getting somewhere.

Rinse and repeat.

This may seem slow and tedious (I did say you'll need patience!) but once you start getting the hang of things it'll become second nature.  Usually .

Thanks for the reply and i do agree with what you say. But in that tactic i was creating very good chances, i was getting at least 3 or 4 one on one situations with the goalkeeper per match. But the chances were constantly being put wide, over or straight at the keeper to the point i was pulling my hair out cos i couldn't believe how they could miss so many. That's kind of what i was looking for advice for, i was creating so many good chances but couldn't for the life of me figure out why i couldn't score more than 1 goal a match.

I would like to try that tactic with a big team where i can sign players though because i'd be fascinated to see how it goes. If everything was perfect other than taking chances at a team like Colchester in League 2 then what could happen with good players.

[Johnny Ace]

Can you post up the other tactics you've tried so we can have a look?

[HUNT3R]

That's a fantastic post by Herne.

If the primary tactic was that good, it was worth keeping, imo. Small tweaks to the tactic may have helped. It could also have been a specific player missing the same chances, so could be lacking the attributes to put away those chances, depending on the angle, which foot it falls to, etc.

Can you post what the primary tactic looks like?

[herne79]

38 minutes ago, Captain Blackadder said:

But in that tactic i was creating very good chances, i was getting at least 3 or 4 one on one situations with the goalkeeper per match. But the chances were constantly being put wide, over or straight at the keeper to the point i was pulling my hair out cos i couldn't believe how they could miss so many.

No no no!   This is what I’m getting at.  The striker and their one v one chance is nothing more than the tip of the pyramid - there is still everything below which may affect that one v one chance, hence when I say:

57 minutes ago, herne79 said:

Getting lots of chances is not the same thing as getting good chances - even if it may look like some of them are.

Going by that tactic you posted above, perhaps the “Be more expressive” instruction is getting your striker to try something daft in some 1v1s.  Or, as you’ve increased the tempo, perhaps the striker isn’t really composing himself and panics a bit during his 1v1.  Or a combination of both.  Or perhaps his own attributes are magnifying (or at least not cancelling out) those issues.  Or something else entirely.  Do you see?  There is so much more that happens in any situation, not just 1v1s.

You’re not alone.  This form is littered with similar complaints of “striker’s rubbish, can’t score 1v1s ever”.  Sure, strikers will of course miss some 1v1s, but if you see it happening consistently match in match out there’s something fundamentally wrong with the system the striker is playing in.

[Captain Blackadder]

37 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

Can you post up the other tactics you've tried so we can have a look?

 

26 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

That's a fantastic post by Herne.

If the primary tactic was that good, it was worth keeping, imo. Small tweaks to the tactic may have helped. It could also have been a specific player missing the same chances, so could be lacking the attributes to put away those chances, depending on the angle, which foot it falls to, etc.

Can you post what the primary tactic looks like?

Ok i'll try to remember what i did and when. I'm a few months into the 3rd season and since this is an academy challenge the tactics did change depending on who left and what i got in the youth intake.

This was the tactic i started with, i found it in the tactics thread from last years version from a Southampton fan who wanted to try and recreate Hassenhuttl's tactics. I tried it on last years version and loved it so tried it on this years one to see if it still worked which it did, by January i was sitting comfortably in the play offs. I had a rule where if i was doing well by January i'd start moving loan players out and selling some players to bring through academy players quicker. The key in the tactic was Corie Andrews who was only on loan, he's a lightning quick forward who excelled as the pressing forward scoring 20 by January. I sent him back and promoted Hutchinson who struggled so i felt i needed someone next to him so i moved to this (below).

I did this for the rest of the season and did ok although missed out on play offs in the end. Hutchinson still didn't get many goals but Samson Tovide was next to him and started scoring loads. In the first youth intake i got Dion Lester who looked a great playmaker so i had it in my mind that i'd like to try and move to a system with a no.10 and experimented with this (below).

I still stuck with the 442 and tried the 4231 out every so often but i didn't start the second season well and was conceding too many chances and the goals slowed down. I contemplated a 3/5 at the back but i don't really like the formation as i've never had success with it previously. I started thinking about a better possession based system to stop the chances so i looked at Man City for inspiration at scoring without strikers. I then tried this (below) for a few matches and despite conceding less chances and having good control Hutchinson wasn't doing well and was scoring less. The dlf was actually on attack i made an error there.

During a bad match i moved the striker into the no.10 to see how it worked and liked it and realized the mezzala was getting loads of chances. So i put the other one on mezzala as well, tweaked a few things and the tactic in the opening post was created. I then got James Williams in the second intake and saw i had so many creative midfielders so i continued with it. Now in season 3 everything went wrong so i tried the 4231 but was quite ineffective so went back to 442 where things are going better.

 

[Johnny Ace]

Right oh, cheers for that

Did you use one of the presets to create these? They come with a boat load of Team Instructions, when you don't need that many at all, especially at lower level management with not so great players. The simpler the better really

They're all crazy attacking, high lines and Counter Pressing, the type of football you only see from Liverpool and Bayern Munich when they're smashing a team. That will look to suffocate the opposition, for 90 minutes of every match, while at the same time leaving you vulnerable at the back. It will also tire out and wear down your own players. If you let them out a little, you give them some space to play and space for your team to attack while not running your team into the ground 

Keep it simple, pick a shape use a few instructions to complement a way of playing and stick with it 

For your roles, you need to think of, who's scoring? Who's creating? Who's breaking lines? Who covering? Who has space to move into? It all needs to work together and coherently 

Like your 4-4-2, both fullbacks will fly forward given half a chance, both centre midfields are out to hunt down and tackle players, who's covering for the Wingbacks? Do both of them need to fly forward? One should be enough and even then, in a 4-4-2, do both need to be Wingbacks? Two players in CM are doing the same job as the "destroyer" role, in a 4-4-2 one might be fine, even then it's a bit of risk because the role will go hunting. Assign one role to do the defensive work another to be a bit more creative, a simple CM(D) & CM(S) would do fine here and is about as simple as you'll get.  Both centre backs are Ball Playing Defenders, both risky pass players that bring the ball forward, one is fine, are two players needed to do that? Are they capable of picking out the space in front of them and then putting the ball into it?

Your wide midfield and striker roles look good, the DLF drops off, the IW runs forward into the space, the wide playmaker looks to play in the PF but it'd rework the backline and centre mid into something a bit more straight forward and work from there. The IW will need a flank partner that covers the space he leaves, the overlapping of the WPM makes sense but then the CM on that side of the field could do with holding that side of the pitch so you're not leaving an acre of space for the opposition to pump balls into 

There's a good guide here: 

That should give you a good idea of what roles do what and how to combine them on the pitch, that should help you in putting together a starting point. I'm sure there's even a couple of templates to check out and give you a think about how they were put together 

 

[Captain Blackadder]

9 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

Right oh, cheers for that

Did you use one of the presets to create these? They come with a boat load of Team Instructions, when you don't need that many at all, especially at lower level management with not so great players. The simpler the better really

They're all crazy attacking, high lines and Counter Pressing, the type of football you only see from Liverpool and Bayern Munich when they're smashing a team. That will look to suffocate the opposition, for 90 minutes of every match, while at the same time leaving you vulnerable at the back. It will also tire out and wear down your own players. If you let them out a little, you give them some space to play and space for your team to attack while not running your team into the ground 

Keep it simple, pick a shape use a few instructions to complement a way of playing and stick with it 

For your roles, you need to think of, who's scoring? Who's creating? Who's breaking lines? Who covering? Who has space to move into? It all needs to work together and coherently 

Like your 4-4-2, both fullbacks will fly forward given half a chance, both centre midfields are out to hunt down and tackle players, who's covering for the Wingbacks? Do both of them need to fly forward? One should be enough and even then, in a 4-4-2, do both need to be Wingbacks? Two players in CM are doing the same job as the "destroyer" role, in a 4-4-2 one might be fine, even then it's a bit of risk because the role will go hunting. Assign one role to do the defensive work another to be a bit more creative, a simple CM(D) & CM(S) would do fine here and is about as simple as you'll get.  Both centre backs are Ball Playing Defenders, both risky pass players that bring the ball forward, one is fine, are two players needed to do that? Are they capable of picking out the space in front of them and then putting the ball into it?

Your wide midfield and striker roles look good, the DLF drops off, the IW runs forward into the space, the wide playmaker looks to play in the PF but it'd rework the backline and centre mid into something a bit more straight forward and work from there. The IW will need a flank partner that covers the space he leaves, the overlapping of the WPM makes sense but then the CM on that side of the field could do with holding that side of the pitch so you're not leaving an acre of space for the opposition to pump balls into 

There's a good guide here: 

That should give you a good idea of what roles do what and how to combine them on the pitch, that should help you in putting together a starting point. I'm sure there's even a couple of templates to check out and give you a think about how they were put together 

 

Thanks for the detailed response and yeah i used the vertical tiki taka preset and only changed things i didn't want. For example the original preset had under lapping instead of over so i switched that, I'll try and remove a lot of them and see how it goes.

I do like my teams being aggressive and on the front foot and there's probably some lingering "cheat tactics" going on. Because i remember in past versions you could play 433 with 3 strikers and it was basically cheating sometimes. Also in the last few years gegenpress has been a bit like a cheat tactic which is where my bwm bbm combination comes from as i'd had great success with it previously. I do like risk sometimes and i can take conceding goals as long as i'm scoring them as well as it makes it exciting, not so much when you can't score though.

The wing backs are very attacking since they can cross well and get a decent amount of assists and a few goals as well, a lot of times they're more threatning than my midfielders. I agree there needs to be cover though, maybe drop the bwm back into a half back role or something like that. And then maybe have the cb's wider when in possession to have a back 3 type situation when attacking. I do have 1 excellent bpd and one not so much so i can easily change him to a normal cb. 

[Johnny Ace]

1 minute ago, Captain Blackadder said:

I do like my teams being aggressive and on the front foot and there's probably some lingering "cheat tactics" going on. Because i remember in past versions you could play 433 with 3 strikers and it was basically cheating sometimes. Also in the last few years gegenpress has been a bit like a cheat tactic which is where my bwm bbm combination comes from as i'd had great success with it previously. 

Nothing wrong with uber attacking football if that's how you want to play but you have to weigh up the risk vs reward. Even Klopp plays a DM with attacking Wingbacks 

"Cheat tactics" "AI Crackers" "Diablo's" aren't really done on here, we try to do things using logic, it's more fun and rewarding that way  

3 minutes ago, Captain Blackadder said:

I do like risk sometimes and i can take conceding goals as long as i'm scoring them as well as it makes it exciting, not so much when you can't score though.

In FM (and RL Football) trying to force the goal scoring can be like trying to get a golf ball through a keyhole, If you throw as many players possible at goal that just brings markers with them, has a lot of bodies in a small area of the pitch so there's no room to shoot at goal yet alone creating a nice chance and some eye pleasing football 

 

9 minutes ago, Captain Blackadder said:

The wing backs are very attacking since they can cross well and get a decent amount of assists and a few goals as well, a lot of times they're more threatning than my midfielders

If you look at the role description, you'll see what you're asking of the player. Dribble a lot, hug the touchline, cross high up the pitch. Dribbling a lot means he can be tackled a lot, running wide on the ball means he's stretching play, trying to cross from the byline means he has a long way to carry the ball. For a nice bit of variation, having one Wingback is nice to have, keeps you from being predictable and one dimensional. If they're good at crossing, switch him to Support so he can cross from deep, your striker's good at heading right. If you want both as Wingbacks, a DM might be helpful in there so you're a looking at a 4-3-3 DM to make use of them (see what I said about Klopp) 

17 minutes ago, Captain Blackadder said:

I agree there needs to be cover though, maybe drop the bwm back into a half back role or something like that. And then maybe have the cb's wider when in possession to have a back 3 type situation when attacking. I do have 1 excellent bpd and one not so much so i can easily change him to a normal cb. 

Just be aware, a HB will only form a back 3 when you're playing out from the back, as you move further up the pitch, so will he, so once the ball's out of your defensive third, he's just a normal DM, the description in game needs to be clearer on this 

[Captain Blackadder]

9 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

Nothing wrong with uber attacking football if that's how you want to play but you have to weigh up the risk vs reward. Even Klopp plays a DM with attacking Wingbacks 

"Cheat tactics" "AI Crackers" "Diablo's" aren't really done on here, we try to do things using logic, it's more fun and rewarding that way  

In FM (and RL Football) trying to force the goal scoring can be like trying to get a golf ball through a keyhole, If you throw as many players possible at goal that just brings markers with them, has a lot of bodies in a small area of the pitch so there's no room to shoot at goal yet alone creating a nice chance and some eye pleasing football 

 

If you look at the role description, you'll see what you're asking of the player. Dribble a lot, hug the touchline, cross high up the pitch. Dribbling a lot means he can be tackled a lot, running wide on the ball means he's stretching play, trying to cross from the byline means he has a long way to carry the ball. For a nice bit of variation, having one Wingback is nice to have, keeps you from being predictable and one dimensional. If they're good at crossing, switch him to Support so he can cross from deep, your striker's good at heading right. If you want both as Wingbacks, a DM might be helpful in there so you're a looking at a 4-3-3 DM to make use of them (see what I said about Klopp) 

Just be aware, a HB will only form a back 3 when you're playing out from the back, as you move further up the pitch, so will he, so once the ball's out of your defensive third, he's just a normal DM, the description in game needs to be clearer on this 

Your right it is more fun trying to succeed authentically rather than cheating which is why i came here instead of going to find any of those tactics that guarantee unbeaten seasons, 500 goals and none conceded. I'll stick to being rubbish thank you very much hence why i'm here 

I understand the keyhole analogy because a long running problem has been the mentality of very attacking isn't that effective. The full backs are a balancing act for me. I hate that they go to the byline and don't cross sometimes but they do end up in the box a lot which does create some dangerous attacking situations for me. Your right my striker is very good at heading but i've said he's now out for 6 weeks and i've scored 6 goals in 2 matches since he's been out, maybe he was the problem 

Shame about the hb as i was thinking of how Kalvin Phillips used to play under Bielsa like that and thought that could potentially work for me. I'll play around with various defensive roles to see which works best.

[Johnny Ace]

3 minutes ago, Captain Blackadder said:

Your right it is more fun trying to succeed authentically rather than cheating which is why i came here instead of going to find any of those tactics that guarantee unbeaten seasons, 500 goals and none conceded. I'll stick to being rubbish thank you very much hence why i'm here 

You're not rubbish, just learning  I've tried out downloaded tactics and was able to out perform them with my boring approach 

4 minutes ago, Captain Blackadder said:

I understand the keyhole analogy because a long running problem has been the mentality of very attacking isn't that effective

100%, it's the same with your duties too, more attack duties don't mean you'll score more. 2/3 is plenty, even 0/1 can be very successful  

6 minutes ago, Captain Blackadder said:

The full backs are a balancing act for me. I hate that they go to the byline and don't cross sometimes but they do end up in the box a lot which does create some dangerous attacking situations for me. Your right my striker is very good at heading but i've said he's now out for 6 weeks and i've scored 6 goals in 2 matches since he's been out, maybe he was the problem 

Unleash the Wingacks with a 4-3-3 DM then, it's just not a great idea in a 4-4-2 when there's a great big space in front of your defense 

8 minutes ago, Captain Blackadder said:

Shame about the hb as i was thinking of how Kalvin Phillips used to play under Bielsa like that and thought that could potentially work for me. I'll play around with various defensive roles to see which works best.

I'd have him down as a DLP, like a quarterback role, even then, I don't think Biesla played with FM style Wingbacks   

[Johnny Ace]

Just an idea, seeing as you're doing a Youth Challenge, why not just stick with your Head of Youth's favorite formation? He'll be bringing you players that mostly fit his favorite formation anyway so keeping it simple will help you out long term too  

[Captain Blackadder]

4 hours ago, Johnny Ace said:

Just an idea, seeing as you're doing a Youth Challenge, why not just stick with your Head of Youth's favorite formation? He'll be bringing you players that mostly fit his favorite formation anyway so keeping it simple will help you out long term too  

Just checked and his preferred formation is 4231 wide and preferred style is vertical tiki taka which i play anyway. Odd that because as i've said i don't really have any good natural wide players from youth intakes and any that can play there are more wide playmakers.

[Johnny Ace]

16 minutes ago, Captain Blackadder said:

Just checked and his preferred formation is 4231 wide and preferred style is vertical tiki taka which i play anyway. Odd that because as i've said i don't really have any good natural wide players from youth intakes and any that can play there are more wide playmakers.

That's half the fun of the Youth Challenge, molding those players to how you want to play. So a creative wideman can easily become an Inside Forward (they make probing passes, so they need to be creative) with a bit of training and match experience. Same as an Inverted Winger, they play high up the pitch, in tight spaces so they need to find space and find other players in space

ETA: I've just looked up the page, you've perfectly good IW's, IF's and AP's there 

You could easily use a front line of:

                  P(A)

IF(S)           AP(S)          IW(S)

Get some short passing in there, you've got a creative AP and IF, the Poacher looking for space etc etc