Sell young players who can't get a loan?

[danej]

I recently wondered: Perhaps I should start selling young players (age 18 or older) who can't get a loan?

 

From what I read, playing time is important in a players development once a player turns 18.

 

So then I started wondering what to do with the players I can't offload on loan once they hit 18. I frequently find that it impossible to get a loan for certain players, even if I eventually offer them out for free, offering to cover all their wages.

 

And as mentioned, I recently started wondering: Logically it might make more sense to just sell such players right away. My sparse experience so far (I am rather new to the game) suggests the players hardly ever develop well after turning 18 unless they are first team regulars, either at my club or on loan. So logically it seems to make sense to sell them while they on paper have potential and a higher value. It might be better to sell a 18-19 year old who seems to have lots of potential. Instead of trying repeatedly to loan him out and having him rot in my reserved untill he is a no good 22 y/o.

 

But as mentioned, I have limited experience with FM. It would be great to hear from some of you experienced heads out there.

[EnigMattic1]

24 minutes ago, danej said:

I recently wondered: Perhaps I should start selling young players (age 18 or older) who can't get a loan?

 

From what I read, playing time is important in a players development once a player turns 18.

 

So then I started wondering what to do with the players I can't offload on loan once they hit 18. I frequently find that it impossible to get a loan for certain players, even if I eventually offer them out for free, offering to cover all their wages.

 

And as mentioned, I recently started wondering: Logically it might make more sense to just sell such players right away. My sparse experience so far (I am rather new to the game) suggests the players hardly ever develop well after turning 18 unless they are first team regulars, either at my club or on loan. So logically it seems to make sense to sell them while they on paper have potential and a higher value. It might be better to sell a 18-19 year old who seems to have lots of potential. Instead of trying repeatedly to loan him out and having him rot in my reserved untill he is a no good 22 y/o.

 

But as mentioned, I have limited experience with FM. It would be great to hear from some of you experienced heads out there.

I know this isn't always an option, but have you tried to get an affiliate club you can loan players to? I know, after you have been with a club for a long period (which I haven't yet), you can attempt to get a specific club for an affiliate. If you already have an affiliate, it may be possible to renegotiate the terms and add the option to loan.

[smeagoltonez]

I'm wondering why you can't find a club interesting in loaning him. Which division are you playing in? And what level of football is recommended for him when looking at his coach report?

I think bigger clubs with better training facilities are more likely to see progression with young players 'stuck' in their under 23s team. 

If no one is interested in him, are you even able to sell him (or give him away)?

Sometimes I have to transfer list a player first so that he becomes more favourable to being loaned out. I find that more clubs are then interested when I try to loan him out again.

I can't remember but you may also be able to have a chat with him after transfer listing him in order to persuade him to move on which again can help other clubs become interested.

I think bigger clubs face this problem in real life too. Too many young players are happy to stay in their familiar environment with nice training facilities & only move on when their contract is run down. Other players are continually loaned out until they are eventually released at the end of their contracts unless they are one of those few lucky enough to then be given a chance in the first team.

EnigMattic1's suggestion is also a good one. 

[danej]

4 hours ago, EnigMattic1 said:

I know this isn't always an option, but have you tried to get an affiliate club you can loan players to? I know, after you have been with a club for a long period (which I haven't yet), you can attempt to get a specific club for an affiliate. If you already have an affiliate, it may be possible to renegotiate the terms and add the option to loan.

Yeah I always try that. A lot of players can't go to affiliate clubs for one reason or the other. Often none of the affiliate club want to play the player regularly. Or the play turns down the loan move to the affiliate club.

[danej]

1 hour ago, smeagoltonez said:

I'm wondering why you can't find a club interesting in loaning him. Which division are you playing in? And what level of football is recommended for him when looking at his coach report?

I think bigger clubs with better training facilities are more likely to see progression with young players 'stuck' in their under 23s team. 

If no one is interested in him, are you even able to sell him (or give him away)?

Sometimes I have to transfer list a player first so that he becomes more favourable to being loaned out. I find that more clubs are then interested when I try to loan him out again.

I can't remember but you may also be able to have a chat with him after transfer listing him in order to persuade him to move on which again can help other clubs become interested.

I think bigger clubs face this problem in real life too. Too many young players are happy to stay in their familiar environment with nice training facilities & only move on when their contract is run down. Other players are continually loaned out until they are eventually released at the end of their contracts unless they are one of those few lucky enough to then be given a chance in the first team.

EnigMattic1's suggestion is also a good one. 

I am Sunderland. So a club that starts in League One with superb training facilites. Now I am in the Prem with state of the art facilities.

 

Yeah I imagine it is often a bit hard to loan out players if their current level is Vanarama North/South level. But I talk about better player. What puzzles me is that I regularly can't loan out players whose current ability is Vanarama National or League Two, even when I offer them out for free, covering all their wages. It doesn't make any sense to me. However, I have to deal with it - to sell or not to sell in those situations. Or perhaps there is some other solution I haven't thought of.

[smeagoltonez]

1 hour ago, danej said:

Yeah I always try that. A lot of players can't go to affiliate clubs for one reason or the other. Often none of the affiliate club want to play the player regularly. Or the play turns down the loan move to the affiliate club.

 

1 hour ago, danej said:

I am Sunderland. So a club that starts in League One with superb training facilites. Now I am in the Prem with state of the art facilities.

 

Yeah I imagine it is often a bit hard to loan out players if their current level is Vanarama North/South level. But I talk about better player. What puzzles me is that I regularly can't loan out players whose current ability is Vanarama National or League Two, even when I offer them out for free, covering all their wages. It doesn't make any sense to me. However, I have to deal with it - to sell or not to sell in those situations. Or perhaps there is some other solution I haven't thought of.

I'm not certain if this how the AI works but in my experience, if a player doesn't want to go out on loan then there won't be any clubs interested in loaning him. It's like the AI managers already know there's no point & so they don't make offers. If a player is refusing to join the affiliate club then it looks like this could be the problem. When you list him for loan, does it say something under his happiness details about wanting to go out on loan to get first team experience? And when you set his status as 'available for loan' does he say that he's 'open' to going out on loan?

[danej]

40 minutes ago, smeagoltonez said:

 

I'm not certain if this how the AI works but in my experience, if a player doesn't want to go out on loan then there won't be any clubs interested in loaning him. It's like the AI managers already know there's no point & so they don't make offers. If a player is refusing to join the affiliate club then it looks like this could be the problem. When you list him for loan, does it say something under his happiness details about wanting to go out on loan to get first team experience? And when you set his status as 'available for loan' does he say that he's 'open' to going out on loan?

Just checked my most problematic player, original youth player Will Cain, now 20 y/o. He says he is open to loan offers so that itsn't the problem. It is quite strange why he turned down a loan move to affiliate club Gateshead. He hardly ever plays for me, perhaps 1-2 cup games each season. He has also been out on loan the last 18 months so he has been willing to go earlier. But not this summer.

[smeagoltonez]

4 hours ago, danej said:

Just checked my most problematic player, original youth player Will Cain, now 20 y/o. He says he is open to loan offers so that itsn't the problem. It is quite strange why he turned down a loan move to affiliate club Gateshead. He hardly ever plays for me, perhaps 1-2 cup games each season. He has also been out on loan the last 18 months so he has been willing to go earlier. But not this summer.

And still no other clubs are interested in him? Have you tried transfer listing him?

[danej]

11 hours ago, smeagoltonez said:

And still no other clubs are interested in him? Have you tried transfer listing him?

No, have just tried to loan him out. But yeah, that might help.

 

Btw Zealand just made a video touching on this. For some reason, putting the player on the Development List often helps. The guy who manages the DL (the DoF or the loan manager I think) often find interested clubs that one can't find otherwise. Same with the Unwanted list regarding selling players. So I might use those two lists in the future.

[Johnny Ace]

On 26/06/2022 at 07:43, danej said:

My sparse experience so far (I am rather new to the game) suggests the players hardly ever develop well after turning 18 unless they are first team regulars, either at my club or on loan

I think it's a bit of an FM myth that players won't develop unless they play competitive football every week once they hit 18, it's a bit hasty to be selling them 

It's not like you have to loan them out or put them in the starting lineup the second they turn 18. It's perfectly fine to loan them out at 19 to 21 years old. If they're not good enough at that point, then look to move them on

I've had players that have barely had a kick in a competitive match at 22 and they've gone on to be internationals and league winners. Whether they hit their full potential, I don't know but it's not saying they would've anyway  

[danej]

2 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

I think it's a bit of an FM myth that players won't develop unless they play competitive football every week once they hit 18, it's a bit hasty to be selling them 

It's not like you have to loan them out or put them in the starting lineup the second they turn 18. It's perfectly fine to loan them out at 19 to 21 years old. If they're not good enough at that point, then look to move them on

I've had players that have barely had a kick in a competitive match at 22 and they've gone on to be internationals and league winners. Whether they hit their full potential, I don't know but it's not saying they would've anyway  

Interesting. You almost certainly know better than me, as mentioned I have very limited experience with the game, perhaps 15 seasons in total, FM21 + FM22.

Personally I don't think I have had a single young player develop well unless he has played regular first team football from age 18 onwards. But it could be statistical randomness, limited pool of players that I have seen come through.

[Johnny Ace]

23 minutes ago, danej said:

Personally I don't think I have had a single young player develop well unless he has played regular first team football from age 18 onwards. But it could be statistical randomness, limited pool of players that I have seen come through.

I think the player's personalities had a lot to with it myself. They weren't Model Citizens or anything but they were decent enough and never caused me any problems and trained well 

I'll try and dig their profiles and histories out later, hopefully I've got their ages right  I'm sure they were both 21/22 when I took a punt and made them first teamers. I do have the editor enabled but I've left the club now so I could see how far they went

There's a tool tip in the game that tells you when players will enjoy their peak years so they will develop in their early 20's.

If they have the potential at 18 and a good enough personalty, I'd stick with them a couple more seasons at least 

[danej]

15 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

If they have the potential at 18 and a good enough personalty, I'd stick with them a couple more seasons at least 

Yeah, when to sell is an interesting question. I don't think I would sell anyone half promising at 18 either. The question is, when is the right time to cash in on a seemingly poorly developing young player. I imagine one should regularly cash in on certain such players. While they still have good PA and thus probably a higher value than they will have a couple of years later if they don't develop much.

[Johnny Ace]

3 minutes ago, danej said:

Yeah, when to sell is an interesting question. I don't think I would sell anyone half promising at 18 either. The question is, when is the right time to cash in on a seemingly poorly developing young player. I imagine one should regularly cash in on certain such players. While they still have good PA and thus probably a higher value than they will have a couple of years later if they don't develop much.

Yeah, every player is different. If they're 18 with 1.5 * potential, you're best just selling them off regardless of personality, add some sell on clauses and let them enjoy a career in the lower leagues. If you've leagues loaded, you should be getting enough loan and transfer bids for the players 

3* with a bad personality probably isn't worth keeping around. With a good personality that are worth keeping around, loan them out then reassess when they're 20

You could have a decent youngster at right wing, but you have 3 young right wingers in your squad anyway that are good enough to play, I don't see the point in keeping those sort of players because I'll never use them  so I'll cash in 

But every player is different, I've kept a terrible youngster around for a bit because I liked his name and he was a Luxembourg international at 16. I thought he might garner some interest but so far, no club's seen through how bad he is   

 

 

 

[smeagoltonez]

The question I'm currently asking myself is whether to promote a youngster with a 'balanced attitude' to the first team so that he can be mentored. At the moment, I've lined up a loan deal for him just to cover his wages as I'm in League 2 & need to increase my wage budget. I've found that youngsters with a balanced personality don't generally progress that much out on loan (even when playing regularly) & so are better to cash in on. But maybe I should mentor him first? 

[Johnny Ace]

Here's the two I was on about @danej

I joined in 29/30 when Wolfgang was 20 a few months off 21, I gave him 4 games at left back, I really didn't like the look of him but my two first choice centre backs left on free transfers and another retired, I had no budget so had to use him in the 30/31 season. Before he was 20 he'd had a loan out in the BL3, was almost 22 when I put him in the first team 

Spoiler

 

 

The coaches rated him but I didn't realise his potential was so high but at 24-25 I was still getting coach reports saying he was improving with first team football

 

Similar situation with Gerrit, during my first season he was 21 and out on loan. I had a choice to make when he returned, stick with my current striker who had had a bad season and didn't fit my plans or throw Gerrit in, it was his place to win and he did, he'd just turned 22 as the season started 
 

Spoiler

 

 

 

Gunter-Schmit nearly hitting his full potential, rated much lower than I thought because the guy was an absolute legend for me, again decent personality, trained well and just kept growing into his mid 20's . He'd had two loan spells before he was 22 

 

[danej]

3 hours ago, smeagoltonez said:

The question I'm currently asking myself is whether to promote a youngster with a 'balanced attitude' to the first team so that he can be mentored. At the moment, I've lined up a loan deal for him just to cover his wages as I'm in League 2 & need to increase my wage budget. I've found that youngsters with a balanced personality don't generally progress that much out on loan (even when playing regularly) & so are better to cash in on. But maybe I should mentor him first? 

Yeah my sparse experience is similar. I imagine that age is important. That a lot of players with an unimpressive personalty should be kept around as long as they are under 18, mentoring, see if they can mature before they turn 18. At which point a lot changes.

[danej]

2 hours ago, Johnny Ace said:

Here's the two I was on about @danej

I joined in 29/30 when Wolfgang was 20 a few months off 21, I gave him 4 games at left back, I really didn't like the look of him but my two first choice centre backs left on free transfers and another retired, I had no budget so had to use him in the 30/31 season. Before he was 20 he'd had a loan out in the BL3, was almost 22 when I put him in the first team 

  Hide contents

 

 

The coaches rated him but I didn't realise his potential was so high but at 24-25 I was still getting coach reports saying he was improving with first team football

 

Similar situation with Gerrit, during my first season he was 21 and out on loan. I had a choice to make when he returned, stick with my current striker who had had a bad season and didn't fit my plans or throw Gerrit in, it was his place to win and he did, he'd just turned 22 as the season started 
 

  Hide contents

 

 

 

Gunter-Schmit nearly hitting his full potential, rated much lower than I thought because the guy was an absolute legend for me, again decent personality, trained well and just kept growing into his mid 20's . He'd had two loan spells before he was 22 

 

Highly interesting example.

 

I notice that both have light-hearted mentality. I thought that was a pretty bad personality. But perhaps not. Or perhaps just a coincidence.

 

I wonder why these players developed so well at a high age. That is still quite rare I imagine.

 

I suspect that they have amazing hidden attributes like proffesionalism. Remember seeing a Zealand video about such stuff at one point. Don't remember much except that some of the hidden mental attributes are crucial for player development.

[Johnny Ace]

16 hours ago, danej said:

Highly interesting example.

 

I notice that both have light-hearted mentality. I thought that was a pretty bad personality. But perhaps not. Or perhaps just a coincidence.

 

I wonder why these players developed so well at a high age. That is still quite rare I imagine.

 

I suspect that they have amazing hidden attributes like proffesionalism. Remember seeing a Zealand video about such stuff at one point. Don't remember much except that some of the hidden mental attributes are crucial for player development.

You can see their hidden attributes in the screen shots  I never knew them at the time, it's only because I'm no longer the manager I've had a look. The coach reports were good and they trained well, the one I had to play and the one had a first team try out and both just kept their places so got plenty of first team football and performed 

Light Hearted isn't that bad, it's pretty neutral as personalities go  

I've had others too, an Italian AMC that I picked up for peanuts at 23 and sold 4 seasons later for £45 million

I've had others that I've given a chance and they've just bombed 

Moral of the story is, not to give up on 18 year olds, if they train well, perform in your U-18s and have some decent potential, give them a go  

[danej]

15 hours ago, Johnny Ace said:

You can see their hidden attributes in the screen shots  I never knew them at the time, it's only because I'm no longer the manager I've had a look. The coach reports were good and they trained well, the one I had to play and the one had a first team try out and both just kept their places so got plenty of first team football and performed 

Light Hearted isn't that bad, it's pretty natural as personalities go  

I've had others too, an Italian AMC than I picked up for peanuts at 23 and sold 4 seasons later for £45 million

I've had others that I've given a chance and they've just bombed 

Moral of the story is, not to give up on 18 year olds, if they train well, perform in your U-18s and have some decent potential, give them a go  

Yeah. I guess another point is that personality is king. One should probably give a lot of youngsters a chance. Keep the ones that seem to have a decent personality, train well, perform well, development. And probably sell the ones who don't develop well while they have potential on paper and other teams overrate them and are willing to pay a high price.

I imagine that it might be wise to keep those Nick Kyrgios- / Ravel Morrison- kind of youngster (talented but seemingly unprofessional, bad attitude, don't develop well) untill they are at least 19 or 20. Give them at least one season with regular first team football just to see how the react to that. In other words, keeping them for at least one full season around their 18th birthday, giving them a season out on loan.

[Johnny Ace]

3 minutes ago, danej said:

I imagine that it might be wise to keep those Nick Kyrgios- / Ravel Morrison- kind of youngster (talented but seemingly unprofessional, bad attitude, don't develop well) untill they are at least 19 or 20. Give them at least one season with regular first team football just to see how the react to that. In other words, keeping them for at least one full season around their 18th birthday, giving them a season out on loan.

You can always try and Mentor those players to try and turn them around a bit if you think they're worth the time and effort 

[danej]

1 minute ago, Johnny Ace said:

You can always try and Mentor those players to try and turn them around a bit if you think they're worth the time and effort 

Yeah. That is probably another good reason to keep the Ravel Morrison types around untill they are at least 19 I imagine.

 

What is your opinion? At what age should one sell certain types of youngsters?

[smeagoltonez]

4 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

You can always try and Mentor those players to try and turn them around a bit if you think they're worth the time and effort 

What if a youngster (with a bad personality) is not good enough to be in your first team but may have a shot at progressing to something half decent if he were to gain a good personality, would you move the youngster into your first team so that you can mentor him or just cut your loses & sell him while the value is higher? Is it better for him to try & progress with the other kids at his level or get working on his personality asap to gain max improvement. Hmmmmm.

I suppose the ideal solution is to have lots of good personalities is your u18s & u23s so that the squad influences him & you can mentor him with other youngsters without giving him an inappropriate promotion. That would need significant work each season though.

[Johnny Ace]

4 minutes ago, danej said:

What is your opinion? At what age should one sell certain types of youngsters?

It's a personal choice I guess and ask 100 FM players, you'll get 100 different answers.

For me if they're 18 and out of contract with low potential, I just let them go 

18 and decent potential, I'll keep them around, make them available for loan, see how they develop 

Then take it from there, they might now be ready for the first team, you might get a decent bid for them, they might not be any better than a year ago etc etc 

Depends who you're managing too, scrapping around in the lower leagues with no budget, you might be left with no option but to play these guys. Managing a top club you can more picky   

 

[Johnny Ace]

15 minutes ago, smeagoltonez said:

What if a youngster (with a bad personality) is not good enough to be in your first team but may have a shot at progressing to something half decent if he were to gain a good personality, would you move the youngster into your first team so that you can mentor him or just cut your loses & sell him while the value is higher?

Depends on the entire situation I guess, who you are, your squad, the player's potential, how bad his personality is, the personality of the mentors etc

Nothing wrong with experimenting and trying him for a month or two being mentored in the first team, you can make him available for the youth squad and give him minutes off the bench. You might have players that are more worthy of being mentored so it depends on how much effort you want to put into them. There's no need to rush it either, off the top on my head players under 23 with less than 100 senior appearances can be mentored so you have a good 5 year window to mentor them. If you can't be bothered with all that, just sell them    

[smeagoltonez]

12 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

Depends on the entire situation I guess, who you are, your squad, the player's potential, how bad his personality is, the personality of the mentors etc

Nothing wrong with experimenting and trying him for a month or two being mentored in the first team, you can make him available for the youth squad and give him minutes off the bench. You might have players that are more worthy of being mentored so it depends on how much effort you want to put into them. There's no need to rush it either, off the top on my head players under 23 with less than 100 senior appearances can be mentored so you have a good 5 year window to mentor them. If you can't be bothered with all that, just sell them    

I suppose I'd simply mentor them & get them loan moves if I had the funds. Playing as Colchester in League 2 means that by selling a couple of youngsters who I'm doubtful over could give me enough funds to bring in another loanee or better. Decisions, decisions!

[danej]

I also wonder what "decent potential" is more specifically. From my sparse experience, I usually struggle to get decent bids for youngsters who have Championship potential or lower, no matter what league I am in myself.

[smeagoltonez]

10 minutes ago, danej said:

I also wonder what "decent potential" is more specifically. From my sparse experience, I usually struggle to get decent bids for youngsters who have Championship potential or lower, no matter what league I am in myself.

Whereas my young players with Championship potential always gather unwanted interest in League 2. I suppose it depends on what you see as 'decent bids' though? Is a 6 figure sum decent? Last summer IRL, Colchester sold Poku for a 'substantial six-figure fee' & he had Championship potential. Chilvers will be next IRL & is already gathering interest at the beginning of my save.

[danej]

55 minutes ago, smeagoltonez said:

Whereas my young players with Championship potential always gather unwanted interest in League 2. I suppose it depends on what you see as 'decent bids' though? Is a 6 figure sum decent? Last summer IRL, Colchester sold Poku for a 'substantial six-figure fee' & he had Championship potential. Chilvers will be next IRL & is already gathering interest at the beginning of my save.

Yes for me that is more than decent, a 5 figure sum as well.

 

Perhaps current ability also plays a big role. The players with Championship potential that I have struggled to sell all had non-league CA.

 

Edit: Perhaps players are also more attractive if the currently or recently played regular first team football. And/or attractive if the play regularly in your own first team. Don't know, I'm just guessing. I have never managed below League One.

Edited June 28, 2022 by danej

[smeagoltonez]

3 minutes ago, danej said:

Yes for me that is more than decent, a 5 figure sum as well.

 

Perhaps current ability also plays a big role. The players with Championship potential that I have struggled to sell all had non-league CA.

 

Edit: Perhaps players are also more attractive if the currently or recently played regular first team football. And/or attractive if the play regularly in your own first team. Don't know, I'm just guessing. I have never managed below League One.

I remember in last year's version, I sent a hopeless youngster out on loan to a lower division. He played in every game with decent form & when he returned, the coaches gave him a higher star rating but I used Genie to check his CA & it hadn't changed. I'm guessing his value would have increased too. I think form counts for a lot.