How can I subtly switch to a counter-attacking approach?

[bosque]

Right now I'm trying to play Football Manager in a simple way because I was caught by information overload. 

I have this very simple 4231 that is working relatively well. The main idea of this tactic is to play with a mid-to-high block and try to recover the ball near their halfway line or beyond. But against stronger opposition or in challenging games I want be a bit more conservative.

I would like to know what changes could I do to be a bit more counter-attacking without changing a lot of things and confusing the players. Maybe an "away" approach.

Edited July 7, 2022 by bosque

[coach vahid]

I don't know if it's possible with a top heavy formation...I read some counter strategy on 4231 but with dms.

If i can try something :

- Untick prevent gk distribution. (You want to stay more compact)

- Lower the defensive line of engagement. (You invite the opponent in your half)

- Regroup with a top heavy formation in my mind is necessary. (You will leave too much gap between your wingers and your fullbacks).

But i don't know if it can work for you. For me it was not so good but i always have bad teams.

 

Edited July 7, 2022 by coach vahid

[04texag]

Maybe drop the mentality back to balanced. tick off counter instruction. Then you need some runners to get on the end of balls. I'd make that Paulinho, and just change his duty to attacking, and perhaps drop Wirtz and Frimpong to support.

Might also take off prevent short GK and add tighter marking.

I'm not very familiar with this team and players though.

[bosque]

Thanks for your answers! It's more or less what I had in mind. Apart from my counter-attacking idea, do you see something off with the main tactic?

hace 23 minutos, coach vahid dijo:

I don't know if it's possible with a top heavy formation...I read some counter strategy on 4231 but with dms.

What do you think about making it a 4411 with same roles for wide midfielders? Will give me two banks of four, it sounds good for counter, right?

hace 24 minutos, coach vahid dijo:

- Untick prevent gk distribution. (You want to stay more compact)

This with regroup and counter I think fits very well with what I want.

hace 22 minutos, 04texag dijo:

Maybe drop the mentality back to balanced. tick off counter instruction.

I may try this instead of dropping lines in Positive mentality. You wrote "tick off", was a typo?

hace 23 minutos, 04texag dijo:

Then you need some runners to get on the end of balls. I'd make that Paulinho, and just change his duty to attacking

What do you think about doing this but with my IW Diaby? He is super fast, has decent off the ball and is a very good dribbler.

[04texag]

8 minutes ago, bosque said:

Thanks for your answers! It's more or less what I had in mind. Apart from my counter-attacking idea, do you see something off with the main tactic?

What do you think about making it a 4411 with same roles for wide midfielders? Will give me two banks of four, it sounds good for counter, right?

This with regroup and counter I think fits very well with what I want.

I may try this instead of dropping lines in Positive mentality. You wrote "tick off", was a typo?

What do you think about doing this but with my IW Diaby? He is super fast, has decent off the ball and is a very good dribbler.

Sorry, i meant to tick the counter instruction, so add that TI.

 

Yes, Diaby sounds like a great option to put on an attack duty then, but may want to try as an IF-A instead of IW-A so that he looks to create scoring chances for himself as well as the striker. 

[bosque]

hace 2 minutos, 04texag dijo:

Sorry, i meant to tick the counter instruction, so add that TI.

 

Yes, Diaby sounds like a great option to put on an attack duty then, but may want to try as an IF-A instead of IW-A so that he looks to create scoring chances for himself as well as the striker. 

Great, it sounds good to use him as an IF(a). What are your thoughts on a top-heavy formation playing on the counter? Don't you feel there is too much gap between fullbacks and wingers?

[04texag]

7 minutes ago, bosque said:

Great, it sounds good to use him as an IF(a). What are your thoughts on a top-heavy formation playing on the counter? Don't you feel there is too much gap between fullbacks and wingers?

You mentioned trying a 4411, that would be a good change if you find that there is too much space on the flanks. If you have players with good teamwork and work rate it's likely not an issue and they normally play a 4231 so will be familiar.

[masno]

My approach on this first would be to go with the attacking mentality, the reason being that when you counter, you want your players to take risks and rushing the ball forward as soon as possible, because you don't want the opposition to get themselves together, as this would kill your counter. But balance this with the correct roles and instructions, otherwise you will lose a lot of counter opportunities and also be over agressive.  

Second, identify your fastest player and your best goal scorer, they will be your players with the attack duty, in a counter tactic you will want at least 2 players ready to hit the pedal, and those will be your path to it. 

Third, use instructions and roles that will lure the opposition into your half, you don't want to be passive, as in order to counter, you need to get the ball back, but if you get to high in the pitch, you won't have the space for the counter to happen, remember, you want to catch them in the transition, so give them the space to advance and letting their players get out of position will help you a lot.

Every match day take some minutes to analyse their team. They play with 2 CDs? Go with 2 ST, so when the counter hit, both their defenders will have at least one player bothering them. They have an agressive fullback? Put someone to attack the space that this fullback will leave behind, it will be basically a free lane if you do it correctly.

[bosque]

hace 11 minutos, masno dijo:

My approach on this first would be to go with the attacking mentality, the reason being that when you counter, you want your players to take risks and rushing the ball forward as soon as possible, because you don't want the opposition to get themselves together, as this would kill your counter. But balance this with the correct roles and instructions, otherwise you will lose a lot of counter opportunities and also be over agressive.  

Second, identify your fastest player and your best goal scorer, they will be your players with the attack duty, in a counter tactic you will want at least 2 players ready to hit the pedal, and those will be your path to it. 

Third, use instructions and roles that will lure the opposition into your half, you don't want to be passive, as in order to counter, you need to get the ball back, but if you get to high in the pitch, you won't have the space for the counter to happen, remember, you want to catch them in the transition, so give them the space to advance and letting their players get out of position will help you a lot.

Every match day take some minutes to analyse their team. They play with 2 CDs? Go with 2 ST, so when the counter hit, both their defenders will have at least one player bothering them. They have an agressive fullback? Put someone to attack the space that this fullback will leave behind, it will be basically a free lane if you do it correctly.

This is very interesting and the reason behind Attacking mentality makes sense at least to me.

What do you think about dropping it to a 4411 with an attacking mentality, regroup and both lines lower? I think if I only lower the line of engagement and not the defensive line we will be positioned even higher than with the main tactic.

[04texag]

You should hover over the mentality selection and read them. I would personally not try attacking. 

I mentioned balanced but even considered cautious. Mentality is the most important tactical setting IMO and really changes a lot. Now you can once setting one use other TI to balance different things out. I've even had great luck doing positional play dominating possession with cautious mentality, but I would always start with reading the descriptions and picking the best fit based on overall style you're going for. 

Counter attacking is primarily about solid defense and then breaking away chances, and counter attacking IMO is just not what the attacking mentality is meant for. 

Edited July 8, 2022 by 04texag

[herne79]

In answer to the question posed in the thread title, the “subtle” way to adopt a more counter attacking approach is to simply tick on “Counter” in the team instructions.  That will encourage the match engine to look for more counter attacking opportunities.  With your formation however there may not be many more opportunities identified by the ME as counter attacking strategies usually favour deeper formations, but if you want subtle that’s the most subtle you can do.

If you want a less subtle approach then changing formation is probably the next area to consider, although dropping the two wide players back to change the 4231 into a 4411 is a decent starting point yet still subtly different.  The next step would be change mentality to Counter Attacking - the whole point of a counter attacking strategy is to sit relatively deep, invite the opposition forward in the hope they over commit themselves in attack before you win the ball back and break forward with pace and in numbers.  The Counter Attacking mentality is good for that as it encourages your team to drop deeper, especially if combined with a deep(ish) formation such as the 4411.  

If you do that, be careful not to turn it into a too passive defence otherwise you’ll get swamped.  Combine the mentality and formation with pressing instructions to try to force opposition errors in front of your defence, along with well positioned, fast paced players to take advantage when you win the ball.

You could also use the Attacking mentality, however there is a fine line with that between counter attacking football and turning it into just direct football.

[glengarry224]

Initially, I'd lower the LOE one notch and tick 'counter' and see how it works. Maybe add regroup against more dangerous attacking teams.  Other possibilities are longer passing, higher tempo, longer/quicker distribution, early crosses -- depending upon your team, etc.

If your team is far inferior to some teams, you could train a 4231 with 2 DMs, with a DMC pairing of, for example, a SV(s) and HB(d) (or DM(d)), then the HB/DM frees up your RB to increase his attacking to WB(a), if that works for his skills. 

The 4231 2DM does add some transition issues in the central midfield, which can be addressed, but it's extremely solid in central defense, even against better teams.  If you have good aerial defenders, you can even play narrow and really clog up the box.

Edited July 8, 2022 by glengarry224

[dankrzyz]

On 08/07/2022 at 11:33, glengarry224 said:

Initially, I'd lower the LOE one notch and tick 'counter' and see how it works. Maybe add regroup against more dangerous attacking teams.  Other possibilities are longer passing, higher tempo, longer/quicker distribution, early crosses -- depending upon your team, etc.

I’d echo that as a good menu to choose from for a counter-attacking tactic. The more ambitious passing and faster tempo are the elements of higher mentalities that I like to incorporate, without the others that are contrary to my counter-attacking approach. I tend to mix and match from that list depending on the specifics of my players attributes, roles, and what’s working in the course of a game. 
 

 

Edited July 9, 2022 by dankrzyz

[bosque]

Thank you all for the answers. I will try some of the advices. There are some common denominators so I will start from there

[masno]

Em 07/07/2022 em 20:51, bosque disse:

This is very interesting and the reason behind Attacking mentality makes sense at least to me.

What do you think about dropping it to a 4411 with an attacking mentality, regroup and both lines lower? I think if I only lower the line of engagement and not the defensive line we will be positioned even higher than with the main tactic.

Is a very good idea, the only reason for the attacking mentality is for when your players went into transition, they will have a better mentality to attack, I usually use balanced and cautious only for possession based tactics, as it leads my players to only take risks when necessary, focusing on retaining the ball, but when you are in a counter setup, you want to move the ball forward as fast and effective as possible, and cautious don't usually deliver that.

About the rest, it is exactly what you are looking for, in order to counter the mentality being high, you will lower your LOE and DL, so you can lure the opposition, and the formation is great for defending, as it is know that the formation you setup is how your team defend.