Arsenal 433 - help with the IW role!

[Fieldsy]

Hi all

I have been using the tactic posted below - I have been generally happy with some of the football it has produced - possession type football but with an end product.  Goals are coming from the IW(a), DLF and CM (a).  The B2B will also chip in with goals.  The issue I have is getting Saka or the IW(s) role working.  I have found him to get match ratings of 6.5-6.6 and doesn't impact on the match.  

Saka will often be fairly passive in his passing or directness in running at defenders.  He will get the ball in the half spaces but then stop to lay of a pass to a team mate.  I cant believe that the support duty along with his own characteristics would make him do this?  I have the role as support to give balance to the CM(a) role and the team as a whole.  Also, the Odegaard role I have at times changed to Mezzala (a) and still the same output from Saka.  I was also conscious that by playing a Mez role next to him, could impact his space so have opted for the CM(a) with roam and channels PI.

The team instructions are fairly bland - again, trying to keep it simple.  I will react sometimes to what I am seeing on screen such as pushing defensive/LOE up with increased pressing.  However, this is what I usually start with.

Is there anything glaringly obvious that I am missing with Saka and his role within the team (or the roles around him)?  Is this just a case of him being out of form/sorts?

Any help will be really appreciated in helping me understand where or why im going wrong!

[Johnny Ace]

12 minutes ago, Fieldsy said:

The issue I have is getting Saka or the IW(s) role working.  I have found him to get match ratings of 6.5-6.6 and doesn't impact on the match.  

You could probably get more from him but you'd have to change things to get less out of other players. If things are working well, I wouldn't change anything for the sake of that

You could always invert your tactic so that Saka is on Attack and see how that affects things

15 minutes ago, Fieldsy said:

Any help will be really appreciated in helping me understand where or why im going wrong!

There's nothing wrong  the CM(A) on the inside of him is going to more offensive than he is so is probably picking up the attacking returns on that side of the pitch 

Ratings for attacking players come mainly from goals, assists and key passes. Passing, dribbles, tackles, heading and everything else will have an effect but those 3 really stand out in the ratings   

[Fieldsy]

Thanks for the suggestions - I have considered giving him an attack role but at the same time, feel that would unbalance the other roles I have.  I may play around with some of his PIs - such as risky passes to see if that brings a change.

It's strange also that he hasnt been picked for England considering his standing in the game and current/potential ability.........

[toshimitzou1]

Again using Arsenal I have had similar issues with a similar set of roles and duties but I played almost a mirror image of your roles and duties and found it was my LW as an IW- Support who was getting low ratings despite excellent team results. One thing you could try which did not seem to adversely effect results but got higher ratings was changing the IW to a Winger - Support and off-set this by instructing the RB, Wing Back - Support to Cross Less Often in his PI's. Saka has all the crossing attributes for an out-and-out winger and by playing on the right he will still cut in frequently despite the hard coded instructions attached to the role. The other roles and duties you have chosen complement occasional conventional wing play (B2B, CM- Attack, DLF- attack and a player on the opposite wing attacking the box) and this should not compromise your possession style as the Winger on support duty lends itself well to build up around the box as well as crossing.

36 minutes ago, Fieldsy said:

t's strange also that he hasnt been picked for England considering his standing in the game and current/potential ability.........

Poor form means he is not getting called up.

Hope this helps.

 

 

[Fieldsy]

yeah i get the poor form but this was for the first internationals - he had for the first 2 games not played too bad.

[Christopher S]

11 hours ago, Johnny Ace said:

Ratings for attacking players come mainly from goals, assists and key passes. Passing, dribbles, tackles, heading and everything else will have an effect but those 3 really stand out in the ratings

The problem is that the absurdly off kilter rating weights start creating issues. The IWs role almost always ends up with very bad ratings (6.8 and below), in most systems, and ends up negatively impacting the players morale - and even getting targeted in the media for bad performances. All because the games rating system isn't intelligent enough to discern a players contributions beyond goals, assists and key passes because he's a AM strata player.

The only way I've found to get around this is to employ same side footed players, ie. right footed IWs on the right side (left for opposite) to introduce some variety in movement. If not, the IWs role becomes a "receive and hand off" merchant with negligible attacking output.

Edited July 19, 2022 by Christopher S

[Fieldsy]

1 hour ago, Christopher S said:

The problem is that the absurdly off kilter rating weights start creating issues. The IWs role almost always ends up with very bad ratings (6.8 and below), in most systems, and ends up negatively impacting the players morale - and even getting targeted in the media for bad performances. All because the games rating system isn't intelligent enough to discern a players contributions beyond goals, assists and key passes because he's a AM strata player.

The only way I've found to get around this is to employ same side footed players, ie. right footed IWs on the right side (left for opposite) to introduce some variety in movement. If not, the IWs role becomes a "receive and hand off" merchant with negligible attacking output.

That is exactly it - very passive, very vanilla

[glengarry224]

Saka is an outstanding dribbler and crosser, extremely quick, great agility and balance.  But not a good shooter and a mediocre passer (though with great vision and flair) and below average anticipation.  You could try having him 'stay wider', which would give Odegaard even more room to roam, 'take more risks' and 'dribble more', maybe 'cross more often'.  If you want teammates to target him more, put him on AP(s) or AP(a) and/or 'focus play down the right, but obviously Odegaard is your best creative player:  on AP(a) with 'get forward' and 'roaming', I think he'd eat up opposing defenses.  On CM(a), I'd make sure Odegaard moves into channels and/or roams.  If you have trouble creating chances, I'd put Martinelli on IF(a) so that at least one of your forwards is tasked to attack the backline more.  

Saka is also has pretty good defensive attributes for a forward and could be good at pressing/tackling hard, then he'd steal the ball more and create more chances in space...

[Flokerface]

12 hours ago, Fieldsy said:

Also, the Odegaard role I have at times changed to Mezzala (a) and still the same output from Saka.  I was also conscious that by playing a Mez role next to him, could impact his space so have opted for the CM(a) with roam and channels PI

I prefer to combine a CM(a) with a W(s), and a Mez with a IW on a contrasting duty (one support, the other on attack). Generally speaking I find those combinations to be more effective, but they do different things. 

With a CM(a) and W(s) the latter stays wide and stretches the opposition defence to create space for the former to attack. The CM then also becomes an excellent near post target for the W's crosses. 

Mez(s) and IW(a) is an alternative if the midfielder is more a creator than a scorer, while the wide player has the speed and skills to be a goal threat. The former will look for the ball between the lines in the halfspace and then thread throughballs for the latter, as he makes runs into the box from wide.

Mez(a) and IW(s)  (and add an IWB s/a for good measure) is a really interesting combination in a possession set-up. They will play really close together, interchange positions and regularly overload the channel. The mez will more often make runs into the box, beyond the IW, meaning this is ideal for intelligent and technically strong players capable of fast one-twos. The backside is that they can get too close and narrow, and thus crowded out by compact defenses.

 Any combination can work, so the big question is how do you want them to work. 

[kalongtongan]

On 19/07/2022 at 16:29, Fieldsy said:

Hi all

I have been using the tactic posted below - I have been generally happy with some of the football it has produced - possession type football but with an end product.  Goals are coming from the IW(a), DLF and CM (a).  The B2B will also chip in with goals.  The issue I have is getting Saka or the IW(s) role working.  I have found him to get match ratings of 6.5-6.6 and doesn't impact on the match.  

Saka will often be fairly passive in his passing or directness in running at defenders.  He will get the ball in the half spaces but then stop to lay of a pass to a team mate.  I cant believe that the support duty along with his own characteristics would make him do this?  I have the role as support to give balance to the CM(a) role and the team as a whole.  Also, the Odegaard role I have at times changed to Mezzala (a) and still the same output from Saka.  I was also conscious that by playing a Mez role next to him, could impact his space so have opted for the CM(a) with roam and channels PI.

The team instructions are fairly bland - again, trying to keep it simple.  I will react sometimes to what I am seeing on screen such as pushing defensive/LOE up with increased pressing.  However, this is what I usually start with.

Is there anything glaringly obvious that I am missing with Saka and his role within the team (or the roles around him)?  Is this just a case of him being out of form/sorts?

Any help will be really appreciated in helping me understand where or why im going wrong!

If I see that the tactics you use are similar to mine, maybe I can give you some input. I usually have 3 tactics with the same pattern except for LOE and DL (Standard LOE - Standard DL, High LOE - standard DL and High LOE - High DL) so I can change LOE and DL blocks in the game and my players are familiar with that.
For Roles and Duties, you can try LW on IF-A/S with roam, RW-A with additional take more risk and stay wide or IW-S with additions like IW-A plus take more risk and stay wide.

For the role on the LMC side, you can try CM-S with additional Roam from position and take more risk, here your LCM movement will be a bit like BBM / Mez, in certain situations you can replace the role as DLP-S if you want to increase solidity on the left side. For the RCM position, I like Mez-S with the addition of taking more risk because odegaard has a PPM that is very suitable for that role and LB with a WB-D or FB-S role.

Addition to TI but it's not really necessary I like counter press on transition and WBIB on possession. if you try it let us know how it went.

Edited August 30, 2022 by kalongtongan