Still confused about pressing/counter press etc

[davidbrown3653]

Hi all,

 

I took some time out from FM for a while. I've decided to re-start again but for the life of me I cant get my head around pressing!

I understand pressing/regrouping and pressing traps and gegenpress in real terms, but I'm really struggling to get an idea of how it works in FM.

I guess in game I'm just not seeing what I expected to see, so I thought I'd come and ask the experts   

Now I'm firstly going to make an assumption.

1)  If you select players to press on the Opposition instructions, then also ask the whole team to counter press it will negate/override the opposition instructions? Or would it be the trigger press frequency that did that? 

2) Counter press is used as soon as possession is lost, in game does this have a time limit or a player limit, or even something like a pass limit? So for instance if the opposition make a quick few passes the team should  recognise the press is being played through and stop? 

3) Pressing frequency doesn't affect the frequency of the counter-press, just how often/aggressively the team presses the opposition in general. So they don't have to be used together.

4) regroup is used to maintain a solid shape at the cost of immediate pressure on the ball on a possession turnover.

I started writing a paragraph about how I imagine different systems would be setup, then decided just to fire up FM22 and see what the presets differed from mine  

So instead Ill try and describe what I would like to achieve with my defensive system (and also where I struggle).

I'll start with a caveat: I play as a relatively strong team traditionally, so more often than not I'm the favourite.

Problems: Almost every tactic I create, concedes needless goals. I seem to have numerous "player mistakes"  loose first touch, bad passes etc, I also seem to rely on my GK to make saves far more than i would like, Almost everytime they opposition gets close to my final third there's a simple through ball or slide pass that just cuts me wide open. Now I'm assuming these are mistakes in my tactics, but I just cant figure out where I'm going wrong. If I increase the press it seems to get played through fairly regularly (could be roles rather than tactics?), or individual errors creep in. If i decrease it, or lower my Defensive Line then the opposition seem to have far too much time to pick out passes. 

Aims: What I would like to create is a defensively solid, possession based  tactic (so not a I'll score more than you, brute force) that doesn't make me age considerably everytime the opposition get near my final third. I want to be aggressive in the press, but not so aggressive that its going to leave me open for counters or simple through balls (one of my issues).

What I'm looking for is a disciplined counter press, where not everyone presses (split press?) If the option isn't there or we aren't going to win the ball quickly (for example the opposition fullback wins the ball and recycles it to the GK) then we become a compact solid unit and wait for the ball to come back out to re-start the press, maybe on a certain player or position. But what I don't want is to get camped in my own half (which seems to happen when i use regroup, my players seem to retreat too far back, could this be a mentality issue?)

 I guess you could call it a considered press?  

Just by writing this I have had an idea to just leave regroup/counter press blank leave the pressing intensity as standard and individually tell which players to press and where to press, last time I tried though it wasn't pretty.

Quick edit: If i wanted to set a pressing trap on a certain position how would you all go about that?

I have a couple of ideas but it would make this post far longer than I want it to be (it already is)  

 

Thanks for reading, any input or advice would be much appreciated.

 

Dave

 

 

Edited July 20, 2022 by davidbrown3653

[CARRERA]

As you mentioned already, the counter-press instruction does only affect the transition phase. Its hard to say how long it lasts exactly, but as a rule of thumb you could say that it lasts as long as it takes for the other team to reorganise into their attacking / defensive shape. They key for an effective couter-press (despited the right player attributes), is to have enough players aroud who manage to cut off passing lanes and keep up the pressure. One could say that its beneficial to move in a rather compact attacking shape (narrow attacking width) to counter-press most effectively after loosing possession as it allows your own team to have players available more quickly.

So after transition has been made, your general setting for pressing triggers kicks in. What it does is to determine how often your press will trigger. A press could trigger for example, if a player has a bad first touch or receives a direct pass with his back towards the goal. There are many more, these were just some examples. I think there is a whole thread pinned to this forum about wich pressing triggers migh occur. Once again a compact shape will help your team to press more effectively. However, its the defensive width thats affecting this, since transition already has been made.

If your defense fails the press, I would assume, that your team is either not capable of executing an effective press due to their lack of skill or due to poor choice of tactical instructions. Another reason could be a too low pressing setting combined with a too high defensive line, or a too high defensive line combined with a too low line of engagement.

As you are looking for a "considered press" as you call it, i would start out with mid block and standard pressing triggers. No loss of possession instruction.

Edited July 20, 2022 by CARRERA

[glengarry224]

please post your tactic

[davidbrown3653]

Thanks for the advice @CARRERA

Quote

If your defense fails the press, I would assume, that your team is either not capable of executing an effective press due to their lack of skill or due to poor choice of tactical instructions. Another reason could be a too low pressing setting combined with a too high defensive line, or a too high defensive line combined with a too low line of engagement.

This is my thinking too, I'm making a fundamental error somewhere that allows opposition too much time and/or space, or the opposite i press to hard and it gets bypassed (more often the first one though). 

My hunch is I'm leaving my defenders too much work/ground to cover, even with a DM/cm(d) on the pitch.

14 hours ago, CARRERA said:

As you are looking for a "considered press" as you call it, i would start out with mid block and standard pressing triggers. No loss of possession instruction

I'll give this a go and see how it goes, I just worry not having any selected will just leave my players in limbo, neither pressing or regrouping  Though I guess that's where PI's come in.

 

12 hours ago, glengarry224 said:

please post your tactic

I don't currently have one par se, I'm just experimenting before starting another save. I would love to get an effective 4-4-2 working or a 4-3-3 I guess. But non-gegen pressing, I did that last time.

 

As another note the structured/flexible/fluid in the tactics screen doesn't mean all that much now right?

[Robson 07]

When an opponent "counterattacks" you can aim to suppress with "counterpress" or "regroup".  If the opposition is building play normally (i.e. not launching a counter) then defending should correspond to how you press.  That's how it should work, or at least how I view it.

[bosque]

hace 1 hora, davidbrown3653 dijo:

I'll give this a go and see how it goes, I just worry not having any selected will just leave my players in limbo, neither pressing or regrouping  Though I guess that's where PI's come in.

When nothing is selected the team mentalty and mental attributes come in.

[coach vahid]

il y a une heure, davidbrown3653 a dit :

Thanks for the advice @CARRERA

This is my thinking too, I'm making a fundamental error somewhere that allows opposition too much time and/or space, or the opposite i press to hard and it gets bypassed (more often the first one though). 

My hunch is I'm leaving my defenders too much work/ground to cover, even with a DM/cm(d) on the pitch.

I'll give this a go and see how it goes, I just worry not having any selected will just leave my players in limbo, neither pressing or regrouping  Though I guess that's where PI's come in.

 

I don't currently have one par se, I'm just experimenting before starting another save. I would love to get an effective 4-4-2 working or a 4-3-3 I guess. But non-gegen pressing, I did that last time.

 

As another note the structured/flexible/fluid in the tactics screen doesn't mean all that much now right?

About the 442, I can confirm that playing in mid block with standard pressing triggers, is difficult. Not impossible, but complicated. You need ,I think, very good players. Anticipation,Decision,Positionning...

[davidbrown3653]

12 minutes ago, coach vahid said:

About the 442, I can confirm that playing in mid block with standard pressing triggers, is difficult. Not impossible, but complicated. You need ,I think, very good players. Anticipation,Decision,Positionning...

Yeah i thought so, hence I'm not set on the 4-4-2, i think a 4-3-3 is easier to set-up, I just like my throw back to the 90's   

the 4-4-2 attached is what i was thinking of so far with regards roles, but as i said a 4-3-3 would be ok to, I actually tried to get one to work with a regista (its one of my favourite roles) but just couldnt find any balance, the same issues came up no matter the formation, hence I decided to post about my issues, rather than a formation   

 

Edited July 21, 2022 by davidbrown3653
added context

[coach vahid]

il y a 43 minutes, davidbrown3653 a dit :

Yeah i thought so, hence I'm not set on the 4-4-2, i think a 4-3-3 is easier to set-up, I just like my throw back to the 90's   

the 4-4-2 attached is what i was thinking of so far with regards roles, but as i said a 4-3-3 would be ok to, I actually tried to get one to work with a regista (its one of my favourite roles) but just couldnt find any balance, the same issues came up no matter the formation, hence I decided to post about my issues, rather than a formation   

 

I think is a good set up... The Wingback is a little too much in a 442 imo. Maybe the WP on support,with behind him, just a Fullback on attack( I noticed that the Fullback on attack is less adventurous than a Wingback on support.) On the left, the Winger on attack, and the Fullback on support( For a more balanced setup).

About instructions,its just maybe me but the force opposition outside instruction, I find a little more interesting coupled with the lower defensive line.

The more often is the subject, and frankly I dont know what to do. I just won an away game with using less urgent. I think it was the answer,but I lost the game after.

With this mentality, and on 442, I won't use counter too. Just hold shape. With this set up, of course. The counter, why not, but I dont think you have enough player for attack space. I think its better to use it with attack duty on each side.

I hope you'll find balanced.

 

Edited July 21, 2022 by coach vahid

[davidbrown3653]

Thats what i thought, my original idea was a 4-3-3. mainly because i find it easier to balance. As I said I started with a regista but really struggled to balance it.

This was my latest idea, again minimal instructions so I can see how it plays and adjust as people advise on here with regards pressing  

 

[CARRERA]

9 hours ago, davidbrown3653 said:

As another note the structured/flexible/fluid in the tactics screen doesn't mean all that much now right?

Well, the label itself doesnt have any effect, however it displays your teams fluidity. A more fluid playstyle requires more support duties and will lead to a more compact unit thats moving around the pitch. A more structured playstyle requires more specialized duties (Defend / attack) and leads to a more spread out setup with clear responsibilities for your players.

 

7 hours ago, davidbrown3653 said:

Regarding your setup I would properbly try out a few changes

• You've set up a nice single Pivot with a CM(d) and a rather conservative (support) Fullback on the left
• Make the left Winger an attack duty. A support Winger together with a support Fullback might not provide enough pressure
• Make the Wide Playmaker a Support Duty to keep the balance of your midfield.
• Make the right Wingback an Attack Duty to create runs / movement from deeper Positions. He also needs to cover and provide pressure on that flank by his own, as the WP properbly moves inside
• Both Poacher and False 9 are quite static roles. Neither of them roams or drifts into Channels. I'd properbly switch the F9 to a DLF(s)
• Properbly remove Play out of defense, unless you are the absolute favourite and the other team just camps their own box. Its primarily good to prevent building up too fast against deep sitting teams. Also on a Balanced Mentality, the passes wont be too direct anyway.

[davidbrown3653]

10 hours ago, CARRERA said:

Well, the label itself doesnt have any effect, however it displays your teams fluidity. A more fluid playstyle requires more support duties and will lead to a more compact unit thats moving around the pitch. A more structured playstyle requires more specialized duties (Defend / attack) and leads to a more spread out setup with clear responsibilities for your players.

So essential more fluid means more compact and more positional fluidity/rotation, more players contribute to attack/defence willingly? More structured means defenders defend, attackers attack?

 

10 hours ago, CARRERA said:

You've set up a nice single Pivot with a CM(d) and a rather conservative (support) Fullback on the left

I really like the cm(d) this year, my only issue with it, is that IMO he doesn't "hold position" quite enough. He sits well enough when were building up and entering the final third, but as the ball gets around the edge of the area he seems to creep forwards and often ends up n the box still. It may just be me and my sample is pretty small. The dlp(d) is much more disciplined with his sitting.

Your suggestions are all things I considering doing, so I'm at least on the right track with tactics (there was a reason for the WP(a) and winger(s), but cant recall what it was) My issues still remain with the pressing though  I don't want to click random things and get it to magicly work without really knowing why

I've just been toying around with formations etc really as its the style of play I want to achieve rather than X or Y formation, hence I didn't add one in my original post  

I tend to find roles I enjoy and try to mesh it with a playstyle and then choose my formation around those 2 (taking into account players in my team).

So far my favourite roles overall in FM.

SV

Regista/RPM (I've come to realise the regista is quite hard to get properly balanced)

CM(d)

and one that intrigues me because not many people use it: the poacher (I imagine this to be someone like Gary Lineker?) 

[CARRERA]

4 hours ago, davidbrown3653 said:

So essential more fluid means more compact and more positional fluidity/rotation, more players contribute to attack/defence willingly? More structured means defenders defend, attackers attack?

Yes, but remember it’s the distribution of duties. The label is just a display of what you’ve set up, it has no effect. 
 

4 hours ago, davidbrown3653 said:

he seems to creep forwards and often ends up n the box still.

Ok, that’s weird is there any PPM that makes him move forward? 
 

4 hours ago, davidbrown3653 said:

My issues still remain with the pressing

What exactly doesn’t work? I mean you have to keep in mind, that teams can also play through your press, especially if they are very cautious and don’t offer many pressing opportunities 

[davidbrown3653]

1 hour ago, CARRERA said:

Ok, that’s weird is there any PPM that makes him move forward?

No, No offensive PPM's seems to be kind of normal behaviour, if were building play play down his side of the pitch then he supports and holds position for a while, its as if he thinks "ok, were not doing much they need help creating" and kind of just drifts forwards occasionally.

1 hour ago, CARRERA said:

What exactly doesn’t work? I mean you have to keep in mind, that teams can also play through your press, especially if they are very cautious and don’t offer many pressing opportunities 

Well thats the thing, I just seem pretty easy to play through. I've gone back to vanilla, as you can see and I'm just trying to figure out why/what makes it happen, I can't see much changing when i use the different options

[CARRERA]

6 hours ago, davidbrown3653 said:

Well thats the thing, I just seem pretty easy to play through.

From my experience, this can be a false alert, as highlights usually lead to scoring opportunity, or a set piece. So the other team kinda has to play through. If you really want to look at your pressing, you need to watch the full macht or say like 30 minutes to get a picture of how it works.

[davidbrown3653]

10 hours ago, CARRERA said:

From my experience, this can be a false alert, as highlights usually lead to scoring opportunity, or a set piece. So the other team kinda has to play through. If you really want to look at your pressing, you need to watch the full macht or say like 30 minutes to get a picture of how it works.

Aye, true I guess, although i'm watching on comprehensive. I'm only seeing the times I actually get the press or lines broken.