Squad size - Number of matches per season - Youngsters in the squad - Pecking order

[danej]

I am still uncertain what kind of squad size I prefer. Any input would be greatly appreciated.

 

Rashidi says that young players shouldn't be in the first team unless they play around to 15 competitive matches per season (could be 15 x 45 minutes). Not many more, not many less, you can overplay them as well. I trust Rashidi on this and am convinced that he is absolutely right. And I believe that perspective is important when it comes to deciding squad size. At least for someone like me who usually have quite a few young players in my first team squad. Not least because young players are often not as demanding with wages and they can develop well when they play competetive matches on a high level.

 

Anyway, I also imagine that squad size should to a large extent depend on how many important matches the team is expected to play during the upcoming season.

 

So far I usually play saves either in the top three English leagues, or in the Danish top flight with my second favourite team AaB (Aalborg BK).

 

So I basically face on of these two scenarios each season:

1. Around 40 competitive matches (Premier League or the Danish Superligaen, no European competition)

2. Around 50 competitive matches (Top flights with likely a lot of European matches, or Championship/League One)

Important background information: I play the preset 4-2-3-1 Gegenpress. So I probably need a slightly bigger squad, more need for rest and rotation.

 

So far I have tended towards a first team squad of 20 players in scenario 1, 22 players in scenario 2 (2 keepers in both scenarios, and 18 and 20 outfield players respectively).

 

I am pretty sure that these squad sizes are more than big enough. I rarely if ever have problems with too many unavailable or jaded players (I rotate when needed and manage training work loads to prevent injuries, works well).

 

I am however uncertain whether these squad sizes are too big? It is difficult to keep track of, but I am a bit uncertain whether most of my younger first team players get enough game time. Whether they are close enough to the recommended 15 competitive matches per season.

 

I guess that another important question is: What number in the squad pecking order should a young player have for it to make sense to have him in the first team squad? I mean, in reality there is a pecking order. Something that I personally keep track of very thoroughly.

 

I have a spread sheet with my first team where I sort of rank and update the pecking order. To keep track of my options for various positions. And to keep track of whether any given player is worth his wages, or alternatively whether I should try to sell him because he has become an overpaid rotation/backup option. Btw I believe that managing the wage budget is a crucial aspect of economical development long term succes for the club, but I digress.

 

For example, in scenario 1 above I would imagine that it is not necessarily a good idea to have a younger player aged 23 and below in your first team squad if he is below number 14 in the pecking order of your 18 outfield players (random number but you get the point). Of course the younger the player, the bigger the potential problem. Would the player develop better in the U18 or on loan?

 

Of course when I talk about pecking order it has various aspects. It could be outfield players as a whole, it could be defenders (4 in my case), it could be right wingers where I might have limited options etc.

Edited August 8, 2022 by danej

[herne79]

Personally I tend to have 22 players in my first team squad - 11 first choice players and 11 backups to cover each position.  The backup players will be a mix of backup/squad players and some younger players I’m bringing through.  That gives me a kind of A team and B team.

For example, if I look at my current 4 central defenders in my first team squad - 2 are my first choice players, one is a very good back up (almost as good as my first choice players) who’ll be on the subs bench and the last is a younger player I’m bringing through who will be on the bench if one of the 3 ahead of him are injured / tired.

I’ll sometimes have 23 or 24 players in the squad, the extra 1 or 2 being young players with very high potential who are just about ready for the occasional game time (like in my screen shot in your other thread).

The younger players in the squad I’ll always make available for my U23 team (unless they are playing in a first team match that week) along with the squad players needing match fitness.

My substitutes for each first team game (assuming all first choice players are in the starting 11) will be those expecting to have “squad player” or perhaps “impact sub” game time and maybe one or two younger players I’m bringing through, especially if it’s an easier game and I think I can bring them on in the second half when I’m winning.

I’ll fully rotate in my B team for easy cup matches, with individual B team players rotated in when first choice players are injured / knackered / looking like they might moan about game time.

I don’t worry too much anymore about the amount of game time the younger players get so long as they are progressing well.

[danej]

1 hour ago, herne79 said:

Personally I tend to have 22 players in my first team squad

The younger players in the squad I’ll always make available for my U23 team (unless they are playing in a first team match that week) along with the squad players needing match fitness.

I don’t worry too much anymore about the amount of game time the younger players get so long as they are progressing well.

Interesting reply, thanks.

 

I guess this implies that I perhaps shouldn't be too worried about having a potentially needlessly big squad. After all my squad is slightly smaller than your structure. And the only change I consider making is to make it even smaller.

 

Regarding U23: Doesn't it hurt the development of younger first team players if the regularly play U23 matches? Then I would think that they have a lot of days where they don't train, both first team match days and U23 match days.

 

But perhaps it is like you seem to apply and what is also my base view even if like to learn about details regarding the game: Maybe the answer to this question is, yes it is suboptimal, perhaps even to a rather significant extent. But so what. It isn't that serious. The structure you describe might be more than good enough for those of us who don't like to be too perfectionsist. And as mentioned I totally share that base view.

 

I am convinced that I will grow more and more laid back in my strategic game approach as time passes. I like learning about the game. But it is more out of a general curiosity I guess. I don't want to micro manage, I don't want to be too succesful, I generally don't want to optimize. I just want to know what I am doing, know my alternatives so that I have a more clear grasp of which choices I make and why I make them.

Edited August 8, 2022 by danej

[Rashidi]

5 hours ago, danej said:

Rashidi says that young players shouldn't be in the first team unless they play around to 15 competitive matches per season (could be 15 x 45 minutes). Not many more, not many less, you can overplay them as well.

I never said you can overplay them. In fact it’s up to 15 matches a season, around 12 and you will get a report from your coaching staff that they are developing well. I will usually play them around half an hour at least. And not more than one half. And you generally can’t do that with more than 3 youth players.

Once they are 18 you can push them to more than 15 games  and >45mins but I will never overplay them. On my Palermo stream I have a few hot prospects my best defender was forced to play 90 mins but even with him I was desperate to rotate him and timed his jadedness for the last 2 games of the season.

Once they are 18 and older I give them more game time, if they aren’t playing in first team matches they must be made available for the u20 in my case.

The challenge is maintaining the rotation cos bad results bring bad knock on effects to training. My strategy is to start them in all cup matches and against weaker opponents but bring them on as subs against better sides.

[danej]

42 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

I never said you can overplay them. In fact it’s up to 15 matches a season, around 12 and you will get a report from your coaching staff that they are developing well. I will usually play them around half an hour at least. And not more than one half. And you generally can’t do that with more than 3 youth players.

Once they are 18 you can push them to more than 15 games  and >45mins but I will never overplay them. On my Palermo stream I have a few hot prospects my best defender was forced to play 90 mins but even with him I was desperate to rotate him and timed his jadedness for the last 2 games of the season.

Once they are 18 and older I give them more game time, if they aren’t playing in first team matches they must be made available for the u20 in my case.

The challenge is maintaining the rotation cos bad results bring bad knock on effects to training. My strategy is to start them in all cup matches and against weaker opponents but bring them on as subs against better sides.

I probably articulated my self poorly in the original post. Written communication s*cks at times, not least for me who don't have English as my primary language (I am Danish).

 

What I meant was that I understood from one or more of your YouTube videos that is can be problematic to give too much playing time to young players.

 

In any case thanks for the details regarding how much playing time you give to youngsters, some of these details were new to me, valuable information.

Edited August 8, 2022 by danej

[herne79]

1 hour ago, danej said:

Regarding U23: Doesn't it hurt the development of younger first team players if the regularly play U23 matches? Then I would think that they have a lot of days where they don't train, both first team match days and U23 match days.

It doesn't "hurt" them no.  It may not be the optimal way or we may not see the fastest progression, but players can still happily develop.  (I appreciate I may be being a bit too literal there when I focus on the word "hurt" ).

Take a look at the player below who I've had since a 16 year old in my youth team.  Last season I moved him to my senior squad and he made just 6 first team appearances but played pretty much every U23 game.  This season he hasn't made any first team appearances yet (to be fair we've only played 5 matches so far) and he's not even on the subs bench.  He's still playing every U23 match.  It's now the 4th season that I've had him - he spent his first 2 years in the U18s before I moved him straight to the senior squad last season - and he has come on leaps and bounds.  If my current wide players weren't so good he'd be my first choice starting player (and probably will be one day) and would probably get into most Premier League club starting line ups.

I'm sure I could have made him develop even faster than he has but I seriously doubt it would be more than relatively small gains over and above what I've already seen.

There is also the realistic side of things to consider (which I never used to bother about).  If I take a look at West Ham's first team squad it has 25 players, a few of which will barely play for the first team this season - perhaps the odd sub appearance or start in an easy cup match (sound familiar? ) - but they'll still play for the Reserves.  And that's pretty much what I do in FM these days.

Now there are limits.  I'm not going to simply dump all of my young players into my senior squad.  It's not realistic and coach workloads would go through the roof - player progression would then take a hammering.  Probably solved by employing a lot more coaches but having a bazillion coaches isn't exactly realistic either.  So I keep things to a manageable "realistic" level.

Note - I keep using the word "realistic".  I have no idea how a club operates in real life (squad size excepted) and therefore what is or isn't actually realistic.  It's really just my own logic, common sense and some knowledge of the game.

Don't get me wrong. I used to play the game in a different way.  I'd spend hours setting "optimal" training programs, really looking to get the most out of my players.  These days I take a much more realistic or even laid back approach.  And I think this is what you are kind of looking for - not necessarily a laid back approach but to have a certain amount of information to be able to make your own informed decisions.

[danej]

5 hours ago, herne79 said:

These days I take a much more realistic or even laid back approach.  And I think this is what you are kind of looking for - not necessarily a laid back approach but to have a certain amount of information to be able to make your own informed decisions.

 

Yes I believe that is more core philosophy as well. And probably will be even more so in the future. Not least the informed decisions part. I see that I enjoy not just managing in some random, lazy way because I don't know what else to do. I like to know the game thoroughly, to know my options. So I can then make my personally informed decision and pick the lazy managerial style that suits me the best hehe.

[kingjericho]

My squad normally has between 22 and 24 players. 11 regular starters + 11 second options + 2 cover players for injuries or rotation.

With tight budgets I may reduce the squad to around 20 players and use youngsters as fringe players.

For big clubs that play many games I may stretch up to 25 players but more than that I always have players that end the season with very few minutes played, and in that case I rather have a youngster have those minutes to show his value.

[CARRERA]

I think 22 is perfect. Most likely my squad will look like 14-15 potential starters and 7-8 players as backups. Every Position should be covered by 2 players and backup players need to be good on various positions and roles. I will usually have 2-3 youngsters around aside from my starting 11.

In terms of squad development, there will be a young and promising prospect for every position around in the club, either in one of the youth squads, as a backup in my first squad or loaned out to another club.

 

[Kloppy]

I use 22. One 11 plays all prem other all cups.

 

Then the 3 best youth lads get added to 25 man squad and might see the odd game time. Allows me to get youth into my first team.