Igor Tudor's Olympique de Marseille recreation

[BatigoalFM]

Igor Tudor is the new coach of Olympique de Marseille.

Comparing his game with the one of Jorge Sampaoli last year, this one is very different (direct play, intense pressing).

Has anyone tied to set up how Igor Tudor plays ?

I just wanted open this topic to share with you your analyses on this set up this is what i have gone with as a starting point

 

Starting line-up for the 1st day of the Ligue 1 championship

Or (The BPDs/St replace the WCBs/De/Su)

 

Thanks for your feedback !

Edited June 24, 2023 by Batigoal__

[Valtte]

In Italy there have been this one football school on the rise and they all play kinda same way. The leader of this style is obviously Gasperini and i would name Juric, Tudor and Italiano who do a lot of same things. I don't know how Marseille played but looks good. Usually this "football school" definetely marks tighter but of course Tudor could've change things in the new team.

[BatigoalFM]

Thank you @Valtte for you feedback.

I look forward to seeing more replies in this topic.

Ideally members watching Olympique de Marseille games.

Edited August 11, 2022 by Batigoal__

[BatigoalFM]

No one wants to contribute to the topic ? 

[BatigoalFM]

Can anyone help me define precisely the Igor Tudor's tactics currently used at Olympique de Marseille ?

Based on the following articles:
https://totalfootballanalysis.com/head-coach-analysis/igor-tudor-at-olympique-marseille-202223-tactical-analysis-tactics
https://totalfootballanalysis.com/head-coach-analysis/igor-tudor-hajduk-split-2019-20-tactical-analysis-tactics
https://medium.com/@abelmeszaros/king-igor-and-the-tudors-verona-edition-2e6b325037ad
https://www.sofoot.com/tactique-tudor-lances-en-avant-518647.html

Thanks to the generosity of the contributors

[sonnevillejr]

I'm watching Strasbourg-Marseille right now and I think Tudor's tactic may look like this : (his usual tactic is different as Payet, Dieng and Under aren't starters)

 

Edited October 29, 2022 by sonnevillejr

[FrazT]

@ta11zx  Your post above has been hidden as unnecessary.

[BatigoalFM]

Il y a 15 heures, sonnevillejr a dit :

I'm watching Strasbourg-Marseille right now and I think Tudor's tactic may look like this : (his usual tactic is different as Payet, Dieng and Under aren't starters)

 

 

Thank you @sonnevillejrfor your contribution.

When you say that his usual tactics are different, is it from the point of view of the starting players or the roles associated with the starters ?

[sonnevillejr]

Il y a 2 heures, Batigoal__ a dit :

 

Thank you @sonnevillejrfor your contribution.

When you say that his usual tactics are different, is it from the point of view of the starting players or the roles associated with the starters ?

Usually the front 3 is Harit, Sanchez and Guendouzi, I don't think Alexis Sanchez would be an AF, perhaps a CF or F9 but i'm not sure. Regarding Harit, I don't think he's a trequartista either. I'll try and pay attention when they'll play against Tottenham next week

[Romff23]

I watched the Marseille vs Lille game yesterday and my interpretation of the way OM played that game is this:

GK- Goalkeeper/defend

DCL- Wide Centre-back/defend

DC- Central Defender/defend

DCR- Wide Centre-back/defend

WBL- Wing-back/attack

WBR- Wing-back/attack

DMCL- Defensive Midfielder/defend

DMCR- Defensive Midfielder/support

AMCL- Advanced Playmayker/support

AMCR- Attacking Midfielder/attack

ST- Deep-Lying Foward/attack

Balance + Play of defence;Shorter passing; Counter; Take short kicks; Higher LoE; Higher DLine & Marks tighter (i think it is not in the game any more)

tbh both of interpretation posted in thread (@Batigoal__ & @sonnevillejr) are very close to reality imo.

[BatigoalFM]

Le 30/10/2022 à 20:46, Romff23 a dit :

I watched the Marseille vs Lille game yesterday and my interpretation of the way OM played that game is this:

GK- Goalkeeper/defend

DCL- Wide Centre-back/defend

DC- Central Defender/defend

DCR- Wide Centre-back/defend

WBL- Wing-back/attack

WBR- Wing-back/attack

DMCL- Defensive Midfielder/defend

DMCR- Defensive Midfielder/support

AMCL- Advanced Playmayker/support

AMCR- Attacking Midfielder/attack

ST- Deep-Lying Foward/attack

Balance + Play of defence;Shorter passing; Counter; Take short kicks; Higher LoE; Higher DLine & Marks tighter (i think it is not in the game any more)

tbh both of interpretation posted in thread (@Batigoal__ & @sonnevillejr) are very close to reality imo.

Thank you @Romff23 for your contribution.

Your interpretation is different from that of @sonnevillejr.
Interesting to confront the visions.
The essential/key criteria of Tudor's tactics are: 1c1 marking (mark on man), high pressing, very high defensive line.
Intensity is the order of the day.
Looking forward to seeing your next contributions in light of the upcoming games, especially tonight's.

[sonnevillejr]

il y a une heure, Batigoal__ a dit :

Thank you @Romff23 for your contribution.

Your interpretation is different from that of @sonnevillejr.
Interesting to confront the visions.
The essential/key criteria of Tudor's tactics are: 1c1 marking (mark on man), high pressing, very high defensive line.
Intensity is the order of the day.
Looking forward to seeing your next contributions in light of the upcoming games, especially tonight's.

I don’t think Pau Lopez is a simple Goalkeeper on defense duty, sometimes he participates in the build up, has to cover the space left by the high defensive line and sometimes launch attacks : against Strasbourg he gave an assist to Bamba Dieng 

Regarding Chancel Mbemba, he can’t be on defend duty imo, we often see him very high up the pitch to make a cross, so he’s either a WCB on support or attack duty (if attack, the right wing-back should be on support duty). 

Against Strasbourg, I often saw Guendouzi take Mbemba’s position to allow him to get higher, that’s why I gave him the half back role 

[BatigoalFM]

Il y a 2 heures, sonnevillejr a dit :

I don’t think Pau Lopez is a simple Goalkeeper on defense duty, sometimes he participates in the build up, has to cover the space left by the high defensive line and sometimes launch attacks : against Strasbourg he gave an assist to Bamba Dieng 

Regarding Chancel Mbemba, he can’t be on defend duty imo, we often see him very high up the pitch to make a cross, so he’s either a WCB on support or attack duty (if attack, the right wing-back should be on support duty). 

Against Strasbourg, I often saw Guendouzi take Mbemba’s position to allow him to get higher, that’s why I gave him the half back role 

I share your point of view @sonnevillejr.
There is no doubt about the role of Chancel Mbemba, regarding the task of support or attack it is indeed to try.
He tends to position himself very high as you indicate, splitting quite often outside, but sometimes inside to find himself in a striker position.
As for the duo in the middle, I would tend to say that it is less clear-cut.
Jordan Veretout's role as a VOL is interesting, however, in trying to find the closest to reality, I notice that in comparison with his real role in reality (I may be wrong) he does not go off-centre in the corridor to offer a solution to the construction of the game (to be adjusted with the individual instructions ?).
On the other hand, VOL's role is interesting in the offensive game (construction, finishing) where the attributes of vision, passing are solicited meaning nice attempts at long passes in the depth.
I noticed that this last point is also associated with the role of BWM, which could therefore be an interesting role as well since Jordan Veretout generally ensures a rather intense high pressing on the field in the recovery phase and this role also contributes to the offensive game like the VOL role (less marked certainly ?).
On the other side of the midfield, Valentin Rongier clearly has a role providing cover for Chancel Mbemba's ascents. 
In trying out the DM role in defensive duties I noticed that unlike the HB role the player is freer and less fixed in his movements, and more aggressive in recovery.
Moreover, he has the same behaviour as the HB role, preventing the opponents' counter-attempts, switching with the ascents of a player of a lower line (here Chancel Mbemba).

My proposal for a tactical scheme

Individual instructions : Close down more (all players excepted CD and DM not applicable), Mark Tighter (all players)

Edited November 1, 2022 by Batigoal__

[sonnevillejr]

il y a une heure, Batigoal__ a dit :

I share your point of view @sonnevillejr.
There is no doubt about the role of Chancel Mbemba, regarding the task of support or attack it is indeed to try.
He tends to position himself very high as you indicate, splitting quite often outside, but sometimes inside to find himself in a striker position.
As for the duo in the middle, I would tend to say that it is less clear-cut.
Jordan Veretout's role as a VOL is interesting, however, in trying to find the closest to reality, I notice that in comparison with his real role in reality (I may be wrong) he does not go off-centre in the corridor to offer a solution to the construction of the game (to be adjusted with the individual instructions ?).
On the other hand, VOL's role is interesting in the offensive game (construction, finishing) where the attributes of vision, passing are solicited meaning nice attempts at long passes in the depth.
I noticed that this last point is also associated with the role of BWM, which could therefore be an interesting role as well since Jordan Veretout generally ensures a rather intense high pressing on the field in the recovery phase and this role also contributes to the offensive game like the VOL role (less marked certainly ?).
On the other side of the midfield, Valentin Rongier clearly has a role providing cover for Chancel Mbemba's ascents. 
In trying out the DM role in defensive duties I noticed that unlike the HB role the player is freer and less fixed in his movements, and more aggressive in recovery.
Moreover, he has the same behaviour as the HB role, preventing the opponents' counter-attempts, switching with the ascents of a player of a lower line (here Chancel Mbemba).

My proposal for a tactical scheme

Individual instructions : Close down more (all players excepted CD and DM not applicable), Mark Tighter (all players)

Yes the tactic looks good 👍

Perhaps I would swap the AMs duties, because usually Harit is more attack minded than Guendouzi who plays AM on the right + the support duty can link up more easily with the DM on defend duty

Also, when I think about it, perhaps you could play Nuno Tavares as a Complete Wing-Back (support duty or attack but it might be redundant with the AMat on his side) : Nuno Tavares often cuts inside to take a shot on his right foot, while the wing back just crosses

[BatigoalFM]

Il y a 20 heures, sonnevillejr a dit :

Yes the tactic looks good 👍

Perhaps I would swap the AMs duties, because usually Harit is more attack minded than Guendouzi who plays AM on the right + the support duty can link up more easily with the DM on defend duty

Also, when I think about it, perhaps you could play Nuno Tavares as a Complete Wing-Back (support duty or attack but it might be redundant with the AMat on his side) : Nuno Tavares often cuts inside to take a shot on his right foot, while the wing back just crosses

Thank you @sonnevillejr for your complement which I share.
Were you able to see and analyse the game against Tottenham ?
Loosely, I found that the role assigned to Alexis Sanchez had more to do with an AF(a) (or even PF(a)) role than a DFL(a). High positioning, waiting for the right ball to take space/depth, rarely stalling (Mateo Guendouzi offered more).
Is the verticality not more effective ? (the AM/AF combination is more sought after).
Jordan Veretout's eccentric position during the build-up phase is very noticeable (how do you achieve that in FM?).
Chancel Mbemba was less present in the offensive phases during the first half.

Edited November 2, 2022 by Batigoal__

[sonnevillejr]

il y a une heure, Batigoal__ a dit :

Thank you @sonnevillejr for your complement which I share.
Were you able to see and analyse the game against Tottenham ?
Loosely, I found that the role assigned to Alexis Sanchez had more to do with an AF(a) (or even PF(a)) role than a DFL(a). A high position, waiting for the right ball for space, rarely stalling (Matteo Guendouzi offered more).
Jordan Veretout's eccentric position during the build-up phase is very noticeable (how do you achieve that in FM?).
Chancel Mbemba was less present in the offensive phases during the first half.

Yes I saw the game and I had the same observations that you have 

Alexis Sanchez was a PFat imo, perhaps with roam from position (or you could add « be more expressive » TI for the whole team)

I’m not sure if it’s possible to replicate Jordan Veretout’s movements, he was indeed very wide on the left hand side. I don’t know if you can add the « stay wider » PI to a DM, another possibility would be to move him to the CM strata and give him the carrilero role, but even so I don’t think he would be that wide (maybe play with the highest width?)

Finally I would give both wingbacks the Complete Wing Back role since they are very high and wide like a winger and they’re even often present in the box. 
 

I think we’re not far from the truth 👍

 

[BatigoalFM]

Il y a 1 heure, sonnevillejr a dit :

Yes I saw the game and I had the same observations that you have 

Alexis Sanchez was a PFat imo, perhaps with roam from position (or you could add « be more expressive » TI for the whole team)

I’m not sure if it’s possible to replicate Jordan Veretout’s movements, he was indeed very wide on the left hand side. I don’t know if you can add the « stay wider » PI to a DM, another possibility would be to move him to the CM strata and give him the carrilero role, but even so I don’t think he would be that wide (maybe play with the highest width?)

Finally I would give both wingbacks the Complete Wing Back role since they are very high and wide like a winger and they’re even often present in the box. 
 

I think we’re not far from the truth 👍

 

@sonnevillejr Will you see Jordan Veretout in a DM(s) role more than BWM(s)?
Regarding CWBs, a CWB(a) task for both pistons ? (designating Chancel Mbemba as WCB(s) on the right and Leandro Balerdi WCB(d) on the left).

Edited November 2, 2022 by Batigoal__

[sonnevillejr]

il y a 29 minutes, Batigoal__ a dit :

@sonnevillejr Will you see Jordan Veretout in a DM(s) role more than BWM(s)?
Regarding CWBs, a CWB(a) task for both pistons ? (designating Chancel Mbemba as WCB(s) on the right and Leandro Balerdi WCB(d) on the left).

Veretout as a BWMsu seems fine, I meant an instruction for a player in a DM position (not the role)

Personally, I would keep Nuno Tavares as a CWBsu with Balerdi as a WCBde on his side, and Jonathan Clauss as a CWBat with Chancel Mbemba as a WCBsu : 

In that way, Clauss would be the most aggressive player with Chancel Mbemba supporting him, the most defensive CDM covering them and Guendouzi would drop to make the link with the defensive CDM

On the left hand side, Nuno Mendes would also be high but a bit more present in the build up with the most "attacking" CDM offering him solutions with his support duty and Harit to regularly attack the space.

 

That would be the basic tactic I think (I don't know if that could work in FM since I never tested it). Yesterday's match might be special since they were forced to win, so they played very attacking against a team (overly) defensive.

[BatigoalFM]

Il y a 3 heures, sonnevillejr a dit :

Veretout as a BWMsu seems fine, I meant an instruction for a player in a DM position (not the role)

Personally, I would keep Nuno Tavares as a CWBsu with Balerdi as a WCBde on his side, and Jonathan Clauss as a CWBat with Chancel Mbemba as a WCBsu : 

In that way, Clauss would be the most aggressive player with Chancel Mbemba supporting him, the most defensive CDM covering them and Guendouzi would drop to make the link with the defensive CDM

On the left hand side, Nuno Mendes would also be high but a bit more present in the build up with the most "attacking" CDM offering him solutions with his support duty and Harit to regularly attack the space.

 

That would be the basic tactic I think (I don't know if that could work in FM since I never tested it). Yesterday's match might be special since they were forced to win, so they played very attacking against a team (overly) defensive.

@sonnevillejr Indeed it is not possible to add an individual instruction of the type "stay wider" to a DM.
Thank you for your development of the roles/tasks.

 

Edited November 2, 2022 by Batigoal__

[sonnevillejr]

il y a 51 minutes, Batigoal__ a dit :

@sonnevillejr Indeed it is not possible to add an individual instruction of the type "stay wider" to a DM.
Thank you for your development of the roles/tasks.

 

You’re welcome 👍

[BatigoalFM]

Il y a 22 heures, sonnevillejr a dit :

You’re welcome 👍

 @sonnevillejr The WB role for pistons gives better ratings than the CWB role (add "stay off centre" to the individual instructions).
I'm not sure why.

[sonnevillejr]

Il y a 3 heures, Batigoal__ a dit :

 @sonnevillejr The WB role for pistons gives better ratings than the CWB role (add "stay off centre" to the individual instructions).
I'm not sure why.

Do they still position themselves higher like wingers?

I’m trying to replicate Paulo Fonseca’s tactics with Lille, i use a complete wing-back on attack (Ismaily) and I don’t have this problem atm

Edited November 3, 2022 by sonnevillejr

[BatigoalFM]

Il y a 19 heures, sonnevillejr a dit :

Do they still position themselves higher like wingers?

I’m trying to replicate Paulo Fonseca’s tactics with Lille, i use a complete wing-back on attack (Ismaily) and I don’t have this problem atm

@sonnevillejr Yes, the positioning is good, but the offensive activity is not.
I am trying out the DW role, which seems to have a more direct impact.
I have made two schemes :

In the second diagram I have also associated the role of DLP(a) with an AF(a). Interesting complicity to see what's more with the option to counter in the transition the depth take from the AF(a) is very interesting  (especially the association with the CAR).

Edited November 4, 2022 by Batigoal__

[sonnevillejr]

il y a une heure, Batigoal__ a dit :

@sonnevillejr Yes, the positioning is good, but the offensive activity is not.
I am trying out the DW role, which seems to have a more direct impact.
I have made two schemes :

Individual instructions for DWs : Get further forward

In the second diagram I have also associated the role of DLP(a) with an AF(a). Interesting complicity to see what's more with the option to counter in the transition the depth take from the AF(a) is very interesting  (especially the association with the CAR).

Seems good, I never played with DWs so I can’t really tell

Maybe the problem with CWB was that you focus the play through the middle? With his stay wider instruction he could have been isolated and not used enough

 

[BatigoalFM]

il y a 41 minutes, sonnevillejr a dit :

Seems good, I never played with DWs so I can’t really tell

Maybe the problem with CWB was that you focus the play through the middle? With his stay wider instruction he could have been isolated and not used enough

 

@sonnevillejr Excellent comment ! Indeed it could be an interesting way to remove "concentrate the game in the middle".

[nico_france]

Le 03/11/2022 à 18:29, Batigoal__ a dit :

 @sonnevillejr The WB role for pistons gives better ratings than the CWB role (add "stay off centre" to the individual instructions).
I'm not sure why.

Hi guys, in my vision of the Tudor's set up and most of all our WB capacities

I prefer them to be a little be more lower on the pitch

2 reasons for that from what I saw, with individual marking for the AML/AMR position, they can track back more efficiently to cover the flanks

In offensive phase, my midfielders and my AMC can reach them when they are bombing forward, which is really interesting combined with their crossing abilities, Clauss hit 14 assits with me

That Harit/Under pairing works like a charm, they both hit good numbers and games

The main concern I have is my 2 midfielders, I can't get good ratings from them, depsite  a Guendouzi which is improving a lot

He's not a B2B midfielder for me anymore, he's my defensive man in my midfield

In defense, sometimes, some mistakes, in case of injury during the first season it can be complicated in the CB area, Bailly is not that efficient

In any case I will stick with this tactic, it's kind of weird as I can definitely beat big boys in Champions League, and then get crushed (away most of all) by lower teams

 

 

[BatigoalFM]

Le 12/11/2022 à 10:36, nico_france a dit :

Hi guys, in my vision of the Tudor's set up and most of all our WB capacities

I prefer them to be a little be more lower on the pitch

2 reasons for that from what I saw, with individual marking for the AML/AMR position, they can track back more efficiently to cover the flanks

In offensive phase, my midfielders and my AMC can reach them when they are bombing forward, which is really interesting combined with their crossing abilities, Clauss hit 14 assits with me

That Harit/Under pairing works like a charm, they both hit good numbers and games

The main concern I have is my 2 midfielders, I can't get good ratings from them, depsite  a Guendouzi which is improving a lot

He's not a B2B midfielder for me anymore, he's my defensive man in my midfield

In defense, sometimes, some mistakes, in case of injury during the first season it can be complicated in the CB area, Bailly is not that efficient

In any case I will stick with this tactic, it's kind of weird as I can definitely beat big boys in Champions League, and then get crushed (away most of all) by lower teams

 

 

@nico_france Thank you for your contribution !
Would it be possible for you to share the collective instructions with us ?

Thank you.

[BatigoalFM]

@sonnevillejr Since the start of the Ligue 1 championship, have you watched any games to possibly update tactics ?

All contributions, participations are of course welcome.

Edited March 24, 2023 by Batigoal__

[BatigoalFM]

I renamed the topic, hoping for a better audience.

[Fox-7-]

Hi guys, recently I'm into Tudorball too. I haven't been able to see a Marseille game yet, but I've read several articles and watched a few videos here and there. Also, being Italian, I had the opportunity to see his Hellas Verona in Serie A last season, so I can extrapolate his tactical principles and try to replicate them on FM. I started a save with Udinese in Serie A, who in my opinion have a starting 11 that can fit perfectly into this tactical context. I'm not at the PC right now so I don't have a screenshot, but I set up the tactic as follows:

 

                 SKd

     WCBs CBd WCBd

 WBa -- DMs ------ CWBs

                     CARs

          AMs -- Treq a

                DLFa

 

Mentality: Balanced

In possession: Large, Slightly more direct, Play out of defence

In Transition: Counterpress, Roll it out, Distribute to CBs

Out of possession: Mid block, Press more often, Prevent GK distribution, Step up more

Pls: CWBL dribble more, DMR stay wider, AMR move into the channels and get further forward.

Also during the match, based on how they play, I can eventually set man marking to each player on the direct opponent to replicate the heavy man-oriented system in the out of possession phase

 

I tried to set up the double pivot in this asymmetrical way to try to replicate IRL Rongier (all-court support but more defensive) and Veretout (more technical and devoted to offensive maneuver support) and trying to emphasize the movements to empty the midfield io order to free up passing lines towards the three front players or, if the pass doesn't happen, help the build-up play through combinations on the flanks with WCBs WBs and AMs (focus play on both left and right flank instructions perhaps would help further and it would increase WBs mentality, but I don't want to exaggerate things right away if it's not necessary). Also I immediately started training the "come deep for the ball" player trait at the players who will play in these positions. Up front at the moment is Thauvin as DLFa as Sanchez now in Marseille, with Beto returning from injury I will probably have to switch to another type of forward like AF like Giovanni Simeone in Verona (or TF given his physical structure) and see what happens.

 

I'm still at an early stage as I've only played a friendly match against a team of our own strength like Empoli and the first round of the Coppa Italia against Serie B team Bari, won both easily even if narrowly on the scoreboard. From what I have seen so far the wingbacks (Udogie on the left and Ezibuhe on the right) are very involved in the game like Nuno Tavares and Clauss IRL, with the former as a ball carrier and dribbling a lot (but also being found in shooting positions by one-twos or by reaching the cross at the far post thanks to the hardcoded instruction to roam from position of the CWB role) and the latter more focused on passing and crossing. The three central defenders dominate the aerial play on the balls that are thrown forward by the opponents due to our counterpress and have had ratings >7, haven't checked their pass stats yet. Double pivot players aren't that shining in the game, but I want to look at them more closely in future games to see if the work they do is exactly what I want. Obviously more tests and matches are needed (even against stronger opponents) to have both more precise impressions and consistent data to evaluate strengths and weaknesses

 

Edited April 5, 2023 by Fox-7-

[BatigoalFM]

Thank you @Fox-7- for your interest in the subject and sharing.
We'll keep an eye out for updates to your post

Thanks for the collective help.

Edited May 21, 2023 by Batigoal__

[BatigoalFM]

It's the end of the season.
It's official : Igor Tudor will no longer be coach of Olympique de Marseille next season.
Who will be his successor? A number of names have been circulating for a few days now, including Gallardo, Marcelino...
I'm renaming the topic while we wait for the lucky man.
We'll then be able to continue discussing Olympique de Marseille's next tactical plan.

Edited June 4, 2023 by Batigoal__

[BatigoalFM]

Marcelino García Toral is the new coach at Olympique de Marseille.
@Goldy Can a moderator archive this topic and open a new one ?

Thank you.

Edited June 24, 2023 by Batigoal__

[BatigoalFM]

New topic to come in the name of Marcelino García Toral.