Pep's 3331 Bayern?

[Novem9]

He may not have been the first, but I saw this idea from Guardiola in Bayern Munich. Later, he applied the same idea in Man City, but only in friendly games (as far as I remember).

The point is that he plays without LB, and Alaba, as the CB, joins the attacks on the right flank.

 

Could you help to replicate this in FM22 please?

For now main idea is exists, but results are poor:

 

 

Many thanks in advance!

[Jack722]

This isn't possible in FM yet unfortunately.

I didn't actually watch any of Bayern under Pep, but I can guess how they played based on seeing some of Man City and Barcelona under Pep, and how he used fullbacks and wingers. having quickly watched a few highlights of Bayern during that time, I'm fairly sure I know what the problem is.

Before we play like this in FM we need either two new roles, or an adjustment to current roles. Firstly we need wingers in the AM strata to be able to stay wide when holding position. Secondly we need to have the wide centreback role, or something similar, in the FB position. The wide centreback role should offset the other two centrebacks to form a natural and central back 3, similar to how the HB does it. 

The main problem is your left hand side. Defending will be difficult with the hole in the LB position, and attacking will be just as bad, as wingers in AM position always drift too central too early. FM wingers (all players in wide positions, not just inside forwards) are modelled pretty well after the common modern winger. They normally opposite footed to the side they're on, and like to come narrow through both off the ball movement and cutting inside, this way they're in more dangerous positions to score and create space for an overlapping fullback. However, without an overlapping fullback it's far too easy to defend against. What you want is a leftback in defence, that becomes a wide CB in possession, and also a winger who always stays high and wide, essentially sitting on the opponent's defensive line and a good distance outside the opposition fullback.

Here is an example of how the wingers play. Pep sometimes adjusts, but the majority of times I watch a Pep managed game, at least one winger is always staying outside the fullback.

Edited August 12, 2022 by Jack722

[MrGlenn1337]

Had they given us the option to have one formation when you defend and another one when you attack it would be easier to recreate these tactics.

 

Ten Hag and Nagelsmann both used a 4-2-3-1 but when attacking it often turned into 3-2-4-1. Sané in attack almost played as a no.10 in attack, or a false 10, whatever term you wanna use, and Davies would act as a winger. You could also mention Pep's Man City that defend in a 4-3-3 or a 4-4-2 sometimes, but we all know that when they attack it looks like a 2-3-4-1 most of the times. Also something that can't be recreated in fm. You can get something that looks like it, but the way the players act in he

[(sic)]

2 hours ago, MrGlenn1337 said:

Had they given us the option to have one formation when you defend and another one when you attack it would be easier to recreate these tactics.

 

Ten Hag and Nagelsmann both used a 4-2-3-1 but when attacking it often turned into 3-2-4-1. Sané in attack almost played as a no.10 in attack, or a false 10, whatever term you wanna use, and Davies would act as a winger. You could also mention Pep's Man City that defend in a 4-3-3 or a 4-4-2 sometimes, but we all know that when they attack it looks like a 2-3-4-1 most of the times. Also something that can't be recreated in fm. You can get something that looks like it, but the way the players act in he

Yeah, this is the main issue I'm having with FM right now. People have tried making that back 3 shape from a 4 man defence, but it just doesn't work.

My No.6 is a FB-D who is told to Stay Narrow...doesn't look narrow to me at all. No.27 is my LCB who is told to stay wider...doesn't look like he's staying wider at all... 

It just looks like players are ignoring these instructions, or that the instructions simply don't impact the players behavior nearly as much as they should. 

The rest does work somewhat as it should, No.21 is my IW-S who is told to stay wider...he does do that initially, but later on he'll move narrow. No.7 is my IF-A, the idea is that he should occupy the halfspace, and again, he does that mostly, although I would like him more narrow.

[De Nile]

Topics like these should help, the back three in disguise helps to get the 3rd "centre back" to move up the pitch. The Total Football one uses a pure back 3 whereas the 3-1-6 article helps to provide a more defensive stance while creating at least a back 3 in possession, some ideas on how you plan to make the back 3. I know you said you want a pure cb but the structure of the formation is not far off a 4231 and it will help with recreating the tactic.

 

Edited August 13, 2022 by De Nile

[De Nile]

6 hours ago, (sic) said:

My No.6 is a FB-D who is told to Stay Narrow...doesn't look narrow to me at all. No.27 is my LCB who is told to stay wider...doesn't look like he's staying wider at all... 

If you made an overload on the left hand side it would help the CB to move wide left and the far right back to move inside. Using any sort of winger does force the right back to support it so it would naturally go wide. In most cases it's easier to use an iwb when using wingers. 

[(sic)]

47 minutes ago, De Nile said:

If you made an overload on the left hand side it would help the CB to move wide left and the far right back to move inside. Using any sort of winger does force the right back to support it so it would naturally go wide. In most cases it's easier to use an iwb when using wingers. 

Yeah, but what's the point of making that back 3 shape then?

It's used to help progress the ball up the pitch. If it's not used for that, then what's the point of having players create that back 3 shape later on, when the ball is already in the middle or final third?

It just doesn't work in FM.

Edited August 13, 2022 by (sic)

[CARRERA]

58 minutes ago, (sic) said:

It just doesn't work in FM.

The main problem i think is, that the current form of ME just isnt capable of being that flexible. Many teams, including bayern, nowadays build up with a back three using a FB who moves narrow, a DM to drop in between or both CD's who drop deep to form the back three by involving the keeper. However, that shape primarily is used during build up in their own half. As soon as they approach the final third (in bayerns case) the fullback / pavard will provide width or at least midfield support. Overall, especially top teams, did become way more fluid in their shapes and how players are positioned. Its also impossibel to create fluid interchaning movement between attacking players (yes i know, you can swap positions).

 

[(sic)]

34 minutes ago, CARRERA said:

The main problem i think is, that the current form of ME just isnt capable of being that flexible. Many teams, including bayern, nowadays build up with a back three using a FB who moves narrow, a DM to drop in between or both CD's who drop deep to form the back three by involving the keeper. However, that shape primarily is used during build up in their own half. As soon as they approach the final third (in bayerns case) the fullback / pavard will provide width or at least midfield support. Overall, especially top teams, did become way more fluid in their shapes and how players are positioned. Its also impossibel to create fluid interchaning movement between attacking players (yes i know, you can swap positions).

 

I agree, and I've said it previously, the ME is simply way too rigid. If you want to replicate this, you have to create a completely new role and code the way it behaves. And that would be fine, if they actually were up to date on what's happening in the world of football tactics. This has been a thing for years now, and it's still not possible to recreate in FM. Same with WCB that we only got in FM22, it was a thing for a few years before. 

The way it should work is (just an idea): Give the us the ability to dictate what spaces a player will occupy in certain phases of play. Make "Stay Wider" and "Sit Narrower" actually more noticeable, or redesign it and have it impact players' positioning more. If I want a midfielder to drop to help buildup, I should be able to do so (without training player traits). If I want a fullback to help in the buildup by forming a back 3, then he should move narrower, and act as a 3rd CB, while the CB on the opposite side moves wider. Players should be more aware of the space, and drop/move into that space if necessary. Instead, we have empty spaces that players don't occupy really, we have players sitting on top of each other for no reason, etc.

Sadly I have no hope this, or anything like this will happen any time soon.

[khodder]

I've achieved an in possession shape similar to this by playing a base 3-3-3-1 formation,

            AF(A)

IW(S)  - AP(A) - IW(S)

IWB(D/S) - DM(S) IWB(S)

WCB(A), CD(co), CD(D)

 

My two IWB's tuck inside with the inverted wingers ahead of them. The WCB(A) overlaps both the IWB and the IW - Depending on how I set the IWB on the left hand side I end up with either a 2-3-5 or 3-2-5 in build up.

 

The downside is that defensively you end up in a 5-2-3 type structure that gets broken down relatively easily by better sides.