Inverted wingback positioning

[allyc31]

Morning guys,

before I sit down with the laptop to start a new save, wondering if anyone could answer the question on inverted wingbacks in a 4-3-3

Assuming 

1. there is a player in front of them on the same flank 

2. There is one defensive midfielder on defend

3. the player in the midfield position on their side is on support or attack

4. they have no player traits 

5. Team is set to balanced 

will that inverted wingback some in and sit beside the dm? If so, what mentality would do it? Support? Attack? 
 

id like to try and create the movement we see with modern inverted fullbacks (where the two centre backs, the two inverted wingbacks and the dm make almost a w shape in the middle in an attempt to stop counters through the middle). 
 

thanks all, 

[Andrew Marines]

He will play in the DM position if you put it in support. If you wanna understand more, just try it while watching part of a match in full match.

Edited August 29, 2022 by Andrew Marines

[coach vahid]

Did you try IWB on support each side and DMdef or DMsu ( with hold position). 

Use witdh on maximum too.

[Andrew Marines]

8 minuti fa, coach vahid ha scritto:

Did you try IWB on support each side and DMdef or DMsu ( with hold position). 

Use witdh on maximum too.

The question is, why? What are you try to obtain with that?

[coach vahid]

With standard witdh or less i don't like the way IWB play with the ball. It makes the field too congested in my opinion. But its a feeling.

And IWB on def they play too safety.

For the Dm on support with hold position, i think a good compromise between a defend and support duty for a Dm.

But, but it can leave space behind him mainly when the opposite Gk play long ball behind your defensive line.

[allyc31]

11 hours ago, Andrew Marines said:

He will play in the DM position if you put it in support. If you wanna understand more, just try it while watching a game in full match.

Ta ta pal. That’s all I needed 

[Andrew Marines]

12 ore fa, coach vahid ha scritto:

With standard witdh or less i don't like the way IWB play with the ball. It makes the field too congested in my opinion. But its a feeling.

And IWB on def they play too safety.

For the Dm on support with hold position, i think a good compromise between a defend and support duty for a Dm.

But, but it can leave space behind him mainly when the opposite Gk play long ball behind your defensive line.

Width won't tell your players to go wider or not. It'll tell them where to progress the ball. I still don't understand what you are trying to get 

[coach vahid]

This map is when i used extremly wide width.

 

 

This map when i used narrow width.

That's all.

 

[khodder]

15 hours ago, Andrew Marines said:

Width won't tell your players to go wider or not. It'll tell them where to progress the ball. I still don't understand what you are trying to get 

It is first and foremost a positioning focus for your players, much like the PI of stay wider or sit narrower.

If you play wider and the opposition is giving you the outside then you're going to see more focus down the wings. If you play narrower and the opposition is giving you the outside then a smart team will exploit the wide spaces, a not so smart team will try to battering ram through a wall of defenders.

 

[Andrew Marines]

Il 22/8/2022 in 01:57 , khodder ha scritto:

It is first and foremost a positioning focus for your players, much like the PI of stay wider or sit narrower.

 

No, it's mostly a focus on where to get the ball to. Even @Rashidi and Evidence Football manager talked about this in their videos. Other than the fact that i created a script a while ago on heatmaps and tried with different widths. That showed no results

[khodder]

23 hours ago, Andrew Marines said:

No, it's mostly a focus on where to get the ball to. Even @Rashidi and Evidence Football manager talked about this in their videos. Other than the fact that i created a script a while ago on heatmaps and tried with different widths. That showed no results

I've had significantly different results in the positioning of my players when using much wider vs much narrower.

I tend to see my ball progression depend more on the distribution of my players roles and the defensive structure of the opposition.

I.E I've used play much wider, underlap, and deep runners in the middle quite effectively to create running lanes in the middle of a defence for a CM(A) or a SS(A) to run into, with wide midfielders playing angled through balls to them from almost the touchline.

Maybe my experience is very isolated.

[Andrew Marines]

2 ore fa, khodder ha scritto:

I've had significantly different results in the positioning of my players when using much wider vs much narrower.

I tend to see my ball progression depend more on the distribution of my players roles and the defensive structure of the opposition.

I.E I've used play much wider, underlap, and deep runners in the middle quite effectively to create running lanes in the middle of a defence for a CM(A) or a SS(A) to run into, with wide midfielders playing angled through balls to them from almost the touchline.

Maybe my experience is very isolated.

Okay, let's try then with a stupid try.

We'll use the same tactic with extremely wide and extremely narrrow against each other.

I'm not gonna tell you which one is wide or narrow. you're gonna guess.

It's the PI to set how much wide will the player be. Let's take the winger(7 red) for example

Extremely wide:

Extremely narrow:

 

See how there's no difference? and seems like a bit wide the extremely narrrow is.

 

Edited August 30, 2022 by Andrew Marines

[sonnevillejr]

il y a 53 minutes, Andrew Marines a dit :

Okay, let's try then with a stupid try.

We'll use the same tactic with extremely wide and extremely narrrow against each other.

I'm not gonna tell you which one is wide or narrow. you're gonna guess.

It's the PI to set how much wide will the player be. Let's take the winger(7 red) for example

Extremely wide:

Extremely narrow:

 

See how there's no difference? and seems like a bit wide the extremely narrrow is.

 

I think the width is pretty much the same in all configurations when a team has the ball in its own half (except perhaps the defenders, you can see how narrow they are in the last picture). 
 

What is interesting is to see the width in the middle of the pitch in my opinion, like for your « extremely wide » example. 
 

In the final third, the wingers (especially in AML/AMR position) tend to converge into the box anyway

[coach vahid]

I just don't understand your example...

It would be interesting if we can judge a difference with and without the ball. Each team.

[Andrew Marines]

7 minuti fa, coach vahid ha scritto:

I just don't understand your example...

It would be interesting if we can judge a difference with and without the ball. Each team.

The first one when i asked you to guess was just to prove that the  passmap you sent can't be used as an evidence(and honestly, even in your screenshots i can't really find a big difference).

Why are you seeing the CMLR a bit more wide/narrow? Other than a bit of random deviation tha is fine,  Cause you're asking them to build up a bit more through the flanks/center and they try to provide passing options to the players with the ball moving a bit more to that part of the field.

The only proof you want is to screenshot the field when your team has the ball. You'll see they won't change their position accordingly to the team width but they'll try to watch more the part of the field you're asking them to play into

[khodder]

12 hours ago, Andrew Marines said:

Okay, let's try then with a stupid try.

We'll use the same tactic with extremely wide and extremely narrrow against each other.

I'm not gonna tell you which one is wide or narrow. you're gonna guess.

It's the PI to set how much wide will the player be. Let's take the winger(7 red) for example

Extremely wide:

Extremely narrow:

 

See how there's no difference? and seems like a bit wide the extremely narrrow is.

 

I'm not exactly sure what you think you're proving here with a series of screenshots 

The two in game scenarios are in vastly different circumstances, so you can't compare them in any way in terms of the width instructions of either team impacting positioning in or out of possession.

The roles and duties, combined with the team mentality are going to lead to different behaviours. I.E a fullback on defend given his mentality is naturally going to be more defensively minded and sit narrower. 

All I did is speak from my own experiences. Where the team focuses play has depended heavily on my role and duty combinations and not the width of my team.

I've seen play heavily focused through the middle despite playing on very wide and I've seen play focused down the flanks despite playing on very narrow.

As I said initially, maybe my experiences are isolated. Maybe I'm not right about "under the hood", but I'll continue to use the width instruction the way that I see it drive success for my teams.

On related note. If width does directly impact the focus of the play it seems a bit weird that an attacking mentality would inherently focus the flanks more than a defensive mentality.

[Rashidi]

On 20/08/2022 at 19:04, allyc31 said:

Morning guys,

before I sit down with the laptop to start a new save, wondering if anyone could answer the question on inverted wingbacks in a 4-3-3

Assuming 

1. there is a player in front of them on the same flank 

2. There is one defensive midfielder on defend

3. the player in the midfield position on their side is on support or attack

4. they have no player traits 

5. Team is set to balanced 

will that inverted wingback some in and sit beside the dm? If so, what mentality would do it? Support? Attack? 
 

id like to try and create the movement we see with modern inverted fullbacks (where the two centre backs, the two inverted wingbacks and the dm make almost a w shape in the middle in an attempt to stop counters through the middle). 
 

thanks all, 

Not sure if you read the stickied post called the Book of Roles but the IWB positioning is explained there