Positional Play Inspired 4-3-3

[Miragepredator]

Here is my 4-3-3 inspired by Pep,Arteta and Ten Haag. Im having problems with the defensive line so would like tips on how to keep a highline without conceding atleast 8-10 shots a game even though i often have like 70% possession and have used the IWB on defend so that atleast 5 players are infront of the opposition midfield. Also, Reece is so bad in this game, Hes so clumsy and genuinely terrible defensively and offensively. The only reason hes still here is because he's one of my favourite players.

 

So far i have struggled with managing whether to step up more or drop of more, so i change it depending on how the first 10mins of the game goes and overall id recommend changing the out of possession to your own choice.

I also change the tempo and directness depending on whether we are struggling

If you want, you can change the CBs to BPD but my main CBs keep getting injured so i just left it as CD.

Using the IW(S) in the midfield area lets them stay very wide hence i play them there but i applied the trait "Gets into opposition box" and "Beats offside trap" to each of the front 5

 

 

This second system is one that i use against 4-4-2's or 4-2-3-1's as they also press in a 4-4-2 shape.

I have a 3rd system which i use mainly but its a way more attacking system so ill just add the download link

 

4-3-3(v2).fmf 4-3-3(v3).fmf 4-3-3.fmf

[04texag]

At first glance, there seems to be way too much going on here instruction wise. I would wonder right off about be more expressive, as this encourages roam from position which you actually don't want as a wholesale instruction for positional play, and runs at defense, as you want to move the ball, not run with it. 

What PI do you have on the back four and the DM? Those might be impacting the struggles defensively. 

[Hilly1979]

Looks a bit Narrow for positional play, nobody is holding width

[04texag]

14 minutes ago, Hilly1979 said:

Looks a bit Narrow for positional play, nobody is holding width

I've gotten this to work with narrow team width, it's all about the PI settings on the inverted wingers. Assuming that OP has stay wider on and maybe hold position. 

[Miragepredator]

1 hour ago, Hilly1979 said:

Looks a bit Narrow for positional play, nobody is holding width

In game, ive found that they are very wide

[Miragepredator]

2 hours ago, 04texag said:

At first glance, there seems to be way too much going on here instruction wise. I would wonder right off about be more expressive, as this encourages roam from position which you actually don't want as a wholesale instruction for positional play, and runs at defense, as you want to move the ball, not run with it. 

What PI do you have on the back four and the DM? Those might be impacting the struggles defensively. 

That wasnt there initially, i was trying to get the wide players to rotate and copy how Arsenals left flank operates with the rotation in positions

[The3points]

I think that the play could be forced up the wing too much in the 4-3-3 v2. The midfield will most likely try to find a pass to a winger, who will try something with the mezzala, and then try to cross. Maybe to rectify this you could add an AP who could help try and move things centrally like Odegaard.

The IWB also doesn't help your cause in my opinion. Perhaps FB-S will help up with midfield but also bring the ball out and supply passes wide, while also potentially overlapping when time comes (like Ben White often does at Arsenal). I also think this type of role could suit Reece James more rather.

Finally, the wingers I think could be restricted by the Look For Overlap instruction, especially in the M strata. Saka and Martinelli, to use another Arsenal example, are quite aggressive in a way that perhaps you could be missing

[Miragepredator]

55 minutes ago, The3points said:

I think that the play could be forced up the wing too much in the 4-3-3 v2. The midfield will most likely try to find a pass to a winger, who will try something with the mezzala, and then try to cross. Maybe to rectify this you could add an AP who could help try and move things centrally like Odegaard.

The IWB also doesn't help your cause in my opinion. Perhaps FB-S will help up with midfield but also bring the ball out and supply passes wide, while also potentially overlapping when time comes (like Ben White often does at Arsenal). I also think this type of role could suit Reece James more rather.

Finally, the wingers I think could be restricted by the Look For Overlap instruction, especially in the M strata. Saka and Martinelli, to use another Arsenal example, are quite aggressive in a way that perhaps you could be missing

Thanks for the feedback.

Personally, i dont like how wide the FB(s) stays even with sit narrower, i want them more central

I used the IWB so that they are positioned perfectly for the counter-press, and sometimes i apply the instructions, "Narrow width" and "play through middle" +"Be more disciplined so that i can get a period of sustained pressure, i also instruct individually to take fewer risks to everyone.

I do tweak the roles of the IW sometimes to make them more aggressive aswell so ill look to remove the overlap

[The3points]

51 minutes ago, Miragepredator said:

Thanks for the feedback.

Personally, i dont like how wide the FB(s) stays even with sit narrower, i want them more central

I used the IWB so that they are positioned perfectly for the counter-press, and sometimes i apply the instructions, "Narrow width" and "play through middle" +"Be more disciplined so that i can get a period of sustained pressure, i also instruct individually to take fewer risks to everyone.

I do tweak the roles of the IW sometimes to make them more aggressive aswell so ill look to remove the overlap

That's fair. How do your defensive stats look in the data hub? With "Get Stuck In" (don't know if that's something you tweak), do you end up with too many frantic blocks and clearances?

[Miragepredator]

22 minutes ago, The3points said:

That's fair. How do your defensive stats look in the data hub? With "Get Stuck In" (don't know if that's something you tweak), do you end up with too many frantic blocks and clearances?

Im not currently on the game but we won the league last season after finishing 4th for 3 seasons in a row. From what i remember, we have only conceded 8 goals(in the league) , just headed into January now. I get frustrated when we press high and they are not aggressive enough, hence the "Get Stuck in", and i tried it without it but yet again got frustrated. The first game i put it back on, we won the ball up high, esp with IF(A) which is from the 4-3-3(v1) who aggressively press the CBs in

I remember in the stats, it showed that we had the lowest clearances in the league. 

Edited October 26, 2022 by Miragepredator

[Aoyao]

  

18 hours ago, Jack Joyce said:

This is one of those cases where positions/formations are fairly arbitrary labels, but:

• 4411 - A 4231 in a mid/low block phase will take up this shape.
• 4141 - A 433 in a mid/low block phase will take up this shape.

It's important for us to have consistency in how formations are set, which is why these are not used anymore. However as you suggested, based on the instructions/tendencies the manager has they are able to create these shapes through roles and instructions during a match.

  

19 hours ago, Jack Joyce said:

Positions is always a difficult topic, especially in the modern game where positions/roles are so fluid - it almost just becomes a game of semantics! 

Previously we had a problem - a CM in a 433 is fundamentally very different to a CM in a 4231, they're really not the same position. e.g. you might see Mason Mount as a CM in a 433 and not bat an eyelid, but if you saw him at the base of a 4231 you'd wonder what the manager is thinking! However, in game the AI managers were constantly using players like Mason Mount as CMs in formations where you'd typically expect a double-pivot to be deployed e.g. 4231, 523, 5221.

We reviewed all the possible solutions and felt this was best for the realism of the team selection system, fundamentally players in the base of a 4231 are pivots, and these changes reflect that. It does mean that some players needed their positions adjusted by researchers to reflect these changes, and if you see any issues where this still hasn't happened, please report it to the researchers via the forums. You'll probably find that most CMs will end up also having at least some ability at either DM or AM, but this is expected.

It does mean that there's a lot less formations used by the AI managers with CMs - but there's still some e.g. 442 diamond and 442 flat which remain.

But overall we feel like this has benefits for not only tactical balance and team selection for AI managers, but also for AI shortlisting - since now when they look to recruit a player to play at the base of a 4231 they're not even considering a player like Mason Mount for it.

It's worth noting that when you use DMs with no CMs in the team, then those DMs will position higher - and the same for CMs when there's no DMs, they'll position a bit deeper in certain phases.

 

[Jack722]

I find that the mez and iwb sometimes stand on top of each other and don't make good passing lanes. Try change the mezs to cma or change the iwb to fb + stay narrower

[Miragepredator]

@Aoyao 

Truthfully, Im not really sure of what your trying to put across, but if this is in regards to what i said about players not being aggressive enough, i meant by actual tackles rather then structure. Like rather then a weak attempt at a tackle like Jorginho does IRL, I want a more Casemeiro approach to tackles when pressing 

8 hours ago, Jack722 said:

I find that the mez and iwb sometimes stand on top of each other and don't make good passing lanes. Try change the mezs to cma or change the iwb to fb + stay narrower

I personally have not found this to happen yet, but ive only attempted a few games with them both at support, I usually have MZZ who have been trained to "move into channels" and "beat offside trap"

[Miragepredator]

Another question I have is, How would i go about having a Sarri or Di Zerbi level build up from goal kicks, I know that i should use BPDs, but they always try long passes which annoy me. I want that slow but controlled level of build up

 

[prched55]

24 minutes ago, Miragepredator said:

I want that slow but controlled level of build up

 

You don't have to use BPDs. You just need to make sure your defenders have relatively high (for your league) first touch, passing, composure, and decisions. Also to make sure your team has enough players to support that build up. And to think about where you are moving the opponent and where that opens up space. 

[Miragepredator]

This is the newest version i have used for 6 matches, xG of 18.02 and xGA of 2.18

4-3-3(v4).fmf

Edited October 26, 2022 by Miragepredator

[Miragepredator]

Truthfully, not against the strongest teams but it was playing how i wanted 

[Miragepredator]

[04texag]

How on earth are you in 2027 already?? Looking pretty dominant

[The3points]

I think a De Zerbi setup would need narrow attacking width due to the compactness of the 2-3. I'd guess you'd need

              CD-D CD-D

IWB-S    DLP-D IWB-S

         RPM/AP-S    MEZ-A

The RPM/AP could help make a 4-2 at the start but move and roam about available on the 2nd line

[Miragepredator]

5 minutes ago, 04texag said:

How on earth are you in 2027 already?? Looking pretty dominant

I installed a skin where it instant results + holidaying periods where we play easy teams

[baggsie]

On 25/10/2022 at 15:25, Miragepredator said:

Here is my 4-3-3 inspired by Pep,Arteta and Ten Haag. Im having problems with the defensive line so would like tips on how to keep a highline without conceding atleast 8-10 shots a game even though i often have like 70% possession and have used the IWB on defend so that atleast 5 players are infront of the opposition midfield. Also, Reece is so bad in this game, Hes so clumsy and genuinely terrible defensively and offensively. The only reason hes still here is because he's one of my favourite players.

 

So far i have struggled with managing whether to step up more or drop of more, so i change it depending on how the first 10mins of the game goes and overall id recommend changing the out of possession to your own choice.

I also change the tempo and directness depending on whether we are struggling

If you want, you can change the CBs to BPD but my main CBs keep getting injured so i just left it as CD.

Using the IW(S) in the midfield area lets them stay very wide hence i play them there but i applied the trait "Gets into opposition box" and "Beats offside trap" to each of the front 5

 

 

This second system is one that i use against 4-4-2's or 4-2-3-1's as they also press in a 4-4-2 shape.

I have a 3rd system which i use mainly but its a way more attacking system so ill just add the download link

 

4-3-3(v2).fmf 47.06 kB · 5 downloads 4-3-3(v3).fmf 47.09 kB · 6 downloads 4-3-3.fmf 46.64 kB · 5 downloads

do you use these OIs on every tactic, and can you show the rest of them

[Miragepredator]

23 hours ago, baggsie said:

do you use these OIs on every tactic, and can you show the rest of them

yes, and im fairly sure its tight marking any central position other then CB's and press AML/AMR. (Currently cant open the game)+(DML/DMR should also be tight marking too but must have forgot to to it prior to SS)

[The3points]

I've made a similar tactic in FM 22 while at Everton: it didn't start well but after I got re-enforcements in January I've won 6 on the spin in all comps.

IF-A has stay wider so he keeps width until final third when Mykolenko starts to move forward. Mykolenko and Mingueza both have sit narrower to keep a 2-3 buildup shape. IW keeps width on the right with Stay Wider.

I was actually going to use DM-D like the OP, but a problem earlier in the season was a lack of defensive protection and the Anchor role addresses the issue well.

As for the instructions, I like the combo I see with much shorter passing and slightly higher tempo: we move the ball quickly but keep well too. While perhaps it doesn't match Arteta or Ten Hag, I think it matches Guardiola's City a little bit (obvious pre-Haaland and post-Aguero). Because of the extremely short passing and interplay, there's no need for WBIB to slow us down even more. The Narrow width tries to make the tight De Zerbi setup (the RPM even sometimes makes the 2-4 shown in the video before we shift to a 2-3 in the middle third). 

Our press is also relatively intense but as a midtable team (relegation team when I switched to this tactic) I haven't gone as high as the Chelsea exemplar

[The3points]

I'm going to go through some screenshots of one possession against Burnley

2-4-4 from goal kick

Transitioning to 2-3-5 in middle 3rd

2-3-5 achieved

Lane from Sutalo to DVB isn't really cut off, but a pass would most likely force DVB backwards with his body shpae. So we make a 3 man combination, and since DVB is now on the half turn, he can find Richarlison

Richarlison plays ball for Dominguez to run onto. Final 3rd shape of 3-1-6 like Ten Hag with Mykolenko overlapping on the left.

Dominguez passes to DCL who plays wide to Townsend. Unfortunately DCL's pass isn't good enough and then Townsend gets crowded out. But the sequence was full of JDP trademarks: 1. Careful buildup to find the free man 2. Zones respected with width and depth. 3. Movement and quick passing to find the free man

What failed us was the lack of Qualitative Superiority from Townsend against the Burnley defenders, but the move was highly successful

Edited October 29, 2022 by The3points