The Carrilero Role

[sonnevillejr]

Is it me or the carrilero role is a bit "useless"? 

My idea is that the carrilero stays wide and works with the wing-back while my inside forward goes inside but I don't see it at all, in fact the carrilero behaves himself like a Central Midfielder on support and stays central.

Anyone else has had this issue?

 

[Andrew Marines]

There's not that much difference. The PI stay wider willl limit the pitch where the player can go.

The 7 without stay wider:

The 7 with stay wider:

[Novem9]

one of my favourite CMs combibation for 433 are DLP(d) in DM and CM(a) and CAR(s). Imo MEZ + CAR is bad pair of CMs. Very wide. I used them in 3CM + AM and it was better because CM(d) is linked them

I was surprised about CAR is scoring goals too

[sonnevillejr]

il y a 52 minutes, Novem9 a dit :

one of my favourite CMs combibation for 433 are DLP(d) in DM and CM(a) and CAR(s). Imo MEZ + CAR is bad pair of CMs. Very wide. I used them in 3CM + AM and it was better because CM(d) is linked them

I was surprised about CAR is scoring goals too

I have a DLFsu so I didn't think this partnership would be a problem. But it's true it would be better if I had a F9 since a DLF moves into channel (my player also has this trait) and can be wide too. In the end I replace the CAR for a simple CMsu

[sonnevillejr]

il y a 19 minutes, fquirogam a dit :

The Carrilero rol is intended to having playing without wingers, basically in 3-5-2 formation (if I remember right it was usually used by Valverde in F.C. Barcelona) where you play with 3 CB and 2 Carrileros that are basically the wingers this allows you to have a good balance both in defense and attack, this is way they usually score more goals than the usual left and right full backs because they have less defensive duties. For me having carrileros and wingers doesn't make sense because carrileros is the way to have more players in the middle of pitch and 2 strikers. If you play a 4-3-3 with carrilero role is basically the same than using ther regular full back, in theory is even worse because they tend to "forget" about their defensive duties more than full backs

 

Well the carrilero is used in the gegenpress preset I think, and my winger on his side is an inside forward on attack who comes inside + a wing-back. So my idea was that he could provide support to the RB and sometimes cover his runs. I think Liverpool last year used Henderson as a carrilero in their 433

[herne79]

Description of the Carrilero role in the link below - scroll down a little in the opening post to see it.  In particular note the part that says “The role will provide support in the wide areas in narrow formations”. 👍

(btw it doesn’t matter if the role is part of the default gegenpress tactic.  Those tactics are nothing more than starting points).

https://community.sigames.com/forums/topic/412866-fm18-new-roles-explained/

[sonnevillejr]

Il y a 1 heure, fquirogam a dit :

I found the perfect example for both examples, the Champions League final of 2016-2017, if we take both starting line-ups we can see both Carrilero examples



Let's start with the easy one, the Juventus formation, is a very narrow formation in the midfield with Kedhira, Pjanic and Dybala and two strikers like Mandzukic and Higuaín, so they need Alex Sandro and Dani Alves as carrilero to wide their formation, and the have three CB as Barzagli, Bonucci and Chiellini in defense. This allows both Alves and Alex Sandro to focus less on defense. As we can see here Juventus has not wingers at all relays in Alex Sandro and Dani Alves to occupy all their touchlines.

In the other hand we have Real Madrid formation, that is a good example of 4-3-3 with Carrilero but more fluid that Juventus one, In this formation Isco is the key, because in this formation you could don't have Isco as the same role that Dybala has in Juventus, even that's his natural position because you would have an asymetrich formation, and TV and so simpifies the formations for the people watching that are not quite fond with tactics and could have a hard time to understand asymetric formations. In this case Carvajal and Marcelo also have the whole touchline for them (Cristiano Ronaldo has a striker role here like Benzema) but the difference against Alex Sandro and Dani Alves is that Real Madrid Carrilero have more defensive duties, in any case this would not be a weakness to Real Madrid, because in some urgent cases Casemiro would drop to a CB position between Ramos and Varane (remember that Ramos started his career in Sevilla, Spain and Real Madrid teams as right full back) and Modric would cover Marcelo's back, this is not strange for Modric because if you check some Champions League matches from last season where Lucas Vázquez had to play as full back instead of Carvajal, you would see how Modric and Kroos switch their positions (regarding this formation) in order to have Luka helping Lucas in defense. 

This Real Madrid tactic is slightly different to the 4-3-3 that Ancelotti plays right now because of the role of the full backs is changed since both Vinicius and Valverde or Rodrygo always play as wingers and not like Isco as attacking midfielder and Cristiano as striker.

So as @herne79 says Carrilero role should be always used when your midfield and attacking zones are narrow no matter the kind of formation you use. But always remember football tactics can be so complex, think about Guardiola that is not the first time that he uses three different formations in the same match. Or think in other cases where a team uses a formation to attack and another formation in defense (btw this should be the next step to improve tactically in Football Manager).

P.D. in some strange cases you could also see an asymetric formation where one full back plays as carrilero and the other one does not, this is because maybe one of the full backs is not as offensive as the other one and you have a team like Real Madrid that instead of playing Isco, Benzema, Cristiano plays Cristiano Benzema and Bale, Bale could play as winger, both Cristiano and Benzema as strikers and Carvajal as carrilero and maybe some other left full back (Marcelo would always play attack) like Mendy or Coentrao or else.

Thank you for your contribution. 
 

Indeed the carrilero has to give a bit a width, and also cover the wing back at time, that’s why when I used it I gave the « sit narrower » PI to my inside forward to be more central and Closer to goal, in this way the only wide players would have been the carrilero and the wingback, like in a narrow formation. Unfortunately I didn’t really see the carrilero giving the width 

[(sic)]

2 hours ago, fquirogam said:

I found the perfect example for both examples, the Champions League final of 2016-2017, if we take both starting line-ups we can see both Carrilero examples



 so they need Alex Sandro and Dani Alves as carrilero to wide their formation

 

I'm sorry, but I'm failing to see how Wingbacks are actually Carrilero's in this situation.

Juventus has a double pivot, with 2 wingbacks flanking them and providing width. The wingbacks aren't Carrileros, they're wingbacks. 

Carrileros are primarily wide centre-mids, or just wide midfielders, not Wingbacks or Fullbacks.

Carrileros are often played in systems like 3-5-2, 4-4-2 Diamond, 4-3-1-2/4-3-2-1, etc. Where you have only one player on each side providing width, usually a wingback, and where you have a player behind them acting as a single pivot. Their task is to support wide areas, because of the lack of wingers. They're similar to Mezzalas, but they aren't really offensive oriented, and instead like to provide defensive cover and support.

Edited November 1, 2022 by (sic)

[(sic)]

4 minutes ago, fquirogam said:

Just there is where you are confused @(sic) because carrileros are never actually midfielders, they are always full-backs with the whole touchline for them, all the line-ups that ytou will find using carrileros will always be full-backs (Marcelo, Dani Alves, Jordi Alba, Carvajal, Roberto Carlos), you would never see midfielders like Beckham or Figo or any kind of wide midfielder play as carrilero because the use of a carrilero always implies as more defensive role, this is way carrileros role is only present in Football Manager as a role for full-backs instead of any midfield player. The 3-5-2 formation could be also a 5-3-2 formation when you play carrileros there is no difference at all. when you play a 4-4-2 diamond you are using the full-backs again as carrileros since your 4 midfielders are all inner players (Casemiro as defensive, Kroos and Modric as center midfielders and Isco as attacking midfielder) this is why the 4-3-3 system for Real Madridi n this final could be also expressed as a 4-4-2 diamond because is basically the same at the end.

I am confused by what you're saying, as it doesn't make much sense to me. Maybe your definition of a Carrilero is different to mine and FMs.

We can talk all we want about what the real definition is. Most of the info I've found is pretty much the same as it is in FM, in that Carrilero is a shuttler, a wide midfielder. Maybe it has a different definition in Spanish, or other languages, I'm not sure.

But there's no point in discussing that, we're talking about FM here, and the FM version of a Carrilero and what it does. You're just adding further confusion, where the goal is to do quite the opposite. 

[Johnny Ace]

I think this is translation thing, it's a wingback in Spanish but in FM, it's the Italian midfield version

[bosque]

30 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

I think this is translation thing, it's a wingback in Spanish but in FM, it's the Italian midfield version

I was going to comment exactly this. Carrilero means Wingback in spanish.

[axelmuller]

Carrilero is an Argentinian role, they have traditionally used a 4312 diamond formation in which the outer central midfielders are carrileros

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2007/mar/21/europeanfootball.sport

[CARRERA]

A Carrilero is a shuttler that helps to construct the play. Its most likely a defensive role. They can play as outter central midfielders or as wide defenders (wingbacks) in a back five. In FM there is only the midfield role available. And i doubt (just in terms of the FM ME) that the carrilero role will play like a wingback.

 

 

Edited November 1, 2022 by CARRERA

[Abandex]

Le 31/10/2022 à 09:22, Andrew Marines a dit :

There's not that much difference. The PI stay wider willl limit the pitch where the player can go.

The 7 without stay wider:

The 7 with stay wider:

humm in fact there is a BIG difference. and i will try to explain to you. (sorry for my english i hope u will understand). To me, it's a point that a lot of players still not have understand yet. OK

You know what is the difference between generic role ? (like CM) and specialist role ( like Carrilero ) ? or like CM (s) and BWM ( s) ? or between CM(s)/ BBM ( s) ?  A generic role is a role which is massivey influence by settings and especially by the mentality. for example, if u have a player CM(s) playing under cautious mentality he will behave like a cautious midfielder. protecting the space and not moving too much, not trying to many things. BUT specialist role are " HARD-coded", which means that even if u change the mentality, it wont affect the behaviour of the player that much. THAT's THE MAIN POINT. and that's great of course because even if you are cautious u would maybe still need a roaming midfielder to link the boxes ( like BBM) or aggressive-defending midfielder like BWM while the others players will be more cautious. it can balance your team and create a lot of thing. 

i hope this is quite clear. a CM(s) with a positive mentality can be a advance playmaker lookalike. while a CM(s) with low mentality will be more conservative. but an advance playmaker will always be a playmaker.

[Abandex]

Le 31/10/2022 à 00:08, sonnevillejr a dit :

Is it me or the carrilero role is a bit "useless"? 

My idea is that the carrilero stays wide and works with the wing-back while my inside forward goes inside but I don't see it at all, in fact the carrilero behaves himself like a Central Midfielder on support and stays central.

Anyone else has had this issue?

 

no he is not bro. it's a specialist role which can balance your team even with low and high mentality. despite, a CM(s) who is a generic role will be adventurous on positive mentality and more conservative on low ones. u will see a big change in the behaviour but it's not the case for the carrilero.

[Razor940]

Em 07/11/2022 em 22:54, Abandex disse:

humm in fact there is a BIG difference. and i will try to explain to you. (sorry for my english i hope u will understand). To me, it's a point that a lot of players still not have understand yet. OK

You know what is the difference between generic role ? (like CM) and specialist role ( like Carrilero ) ? or like CM (s) and BWM ( s) ? or between CM(s)/ BBM ( s) ?  A generic role is a role which is massivey influence by settings and especially by the mentality. for example, if u have a player CM(s) playing under cautious mentality he will behave like a cautious midfielder. protecting the space and not moving too much, not trying to many things. BUT specialist role are " HARD-coded", which means that even if u change the mentality, it wont affect the behaviour of the player that much. THAT's THE MAIN POINT. and that's great of course because even if you are cautious u would maybe still need a roaming midfielder to link the boxes ( like BBM) or aggressive-defending midfielder like BWM while the others players will be more cautious. it can balance your team and create a lot of thing. 

i hope this is quite clear. a CM(s) with a positive mentality can be a advance playmaker lookalike. while a CM(s) with low mentality will be more conservative. but an advance playmaker will always be a playmaker.

I'm sorry, but what are you talking about? The carrilero isn't hard coded for anything, but stay wide and not roam or hold position. In fact, he will be as cautious as a CM on support when you change mentality (fm22), like any other role on support in the midfield.

I would like to know where did you come up with that definition of "generic role", because it doesn't make any sense. It's like you are mixing generic roles, support and automatic setting from the CM role all in one definition. The generic role means the role can be tinkered to do a lot of different things, is a blank canvas, nothing more than that.

 

Anw, talking about the carrilero in normal width systems, I really think it makes more sense than the way people try to imitate guys like Xavi and etc using mezzalas on support.

[Bitner]

Carrileros are meant for wingerless formations, so they can help the full-back on defensive phase and give some width on offensive phase, Long time since i last used, but i felt they helped the FB in a reasonable way.

Cheers,
Bitner 

[Abandex]

Le 09/11/2022 à 11:14, Razor940 a dit :

I'm sorry, but what are you talking about? The carrilero isn't hard coded for anything, but stay wide and not roam or hold position. In fact, he will be as cautious as a CM on support when you change mentality (fm22), like any other role on support in the midfield.

I would like to know where did you come up with that definition of "generic role", because it doesn't make any sense. It's like you are mixing generic roles, support and automatic setting from the CM role all in one definition. The generic role means the role can be tinkered to do a lot of different things, is a blank canvas, nothing more than that.

 

Anw, talking about the carrilero in normal width systems, I really think it makes more sense than the way people try to imitate guys like Xavi and etc using mezzalas on support.

Not really. i mean, it is not as hard-coded as some role ( second striker ) for example, but he is still coded in term of width. which means that, this role will whatever using the width to a more extent than an other role in midfield no matter what mentality u use ( to some extent). To me, CM(s) even with the TI instruction to "stay wider" will tend to do use more width positionning, yes,  but it wont be the same. ( for example, during defensive phases). Plus, CM will tend to use width depending on your current mentality whereas the carrilero will do that anyway. that's a big difference.