Ability to add a birth place that isn't in the country of my nationality

[Leftred]

I would love to be able to add my actual birthplace (Hannover) whilst maintaining my nationality (English). I am not German, nor am I able to speak German, and currently I can't set my Birthplace correctly with out being German as my nationality. If I try to work around it by selecting German, then Hannover, then substituting my nationality to English this sets my Birthplace to London.  

I have raised before and was suggested the above workaround, however this doesn't work.

[y06fitzy]

On 02/11/2022 at 09:16, Leftred said:

I would love to be able to add my actual birthplace (Hannover) whilst maintaining my nationality (English). I am not German, nor am I able to speak German, and currently I can't set my Birthplace correctly with out being German as my nationality. If I try to work around it by selecting German, then Hannover, then substituting my nationality to English this sets my Birthplace to London.  

I have raised before and was suggested the above workaround, however this doesn't work.

What version are you running on? In FM2022 and FM2023 this is already a thing.

 

Select English as your primary nationality, then select German as a second nationality and you will then have the option to select a place in Germany as your place of birth whilst being referred to as English.

This is almost how FIFA treat nationality / national eligibility in real-life (i.e. the "Grandparent Rule"):

Quote

The grandfather rule, in sports which usually only permit participants to play for the team of their country of birth, is an exception which gives participants the option to play for the country of any of their ancestors up to the grandparents.

[Leftred]

On 05/11/2022 at 22:37, y06fitzy said:

In FM2022 and FM2023 this is already a thing.

It isn't. What you have suggested is a workaround. The problem here is I am not German, nor do I speak German. To set my manager up accurately is impossible.

[y06fitzy]

12 hours ago, Leftred said:

It isn't. What you have suggested is a workaround. The problem here is I am not German, nor do I speak German. To set my manager up accurately is impossible.

It's not, by virtue of being born in Hannover, regardless of whether or not you take German citizenship, you are eligible to play for Germany under FIFA nationality rules. 

 

Another example would be me who was born in England, but is an Irish national. I'm not English, never had an English passport, but by being born in England FIFA treat me as English with Irish nationality, that also declared for Ireland. I would also have Scottish Nationality through father, so in terms of FIFA nationality I would be English and Irish and Scottish, even if I (and passport / law) only recognise my Irish nationality.

 

Your case is not different.

[Leftred]

34 minutes ago, y06fitzy said:

Another example would be me who was born in England, but is an Irish national. I'm not English, never had an English passport, but by being born in England FIFA treat me as English with Irish nationality, that also declared for Ireland.

Do you consider yourself an English national? if so, then happy days, if not then your created manager is not the same as you and you are using a workaround too. Small fry I know, but what you offer is not a solution for nationality but only for eligibility. I may be eligible for Germany, but I am not a German National. The field's in-game description is Nationality, not Eligibility nor FIFA Nationality. 

There are similarities between your situation and mine, but they are not the same if you consider yourself to be English, and if you don't then you are using a workaround for your nationality/birthplace too. One other key difference is that English is the largest spoken language of both countries in your situation. If I select German as a second nationality I am given fluent German as a language, as much as I would love to be able to, I can not speak German. 

I am unable to create my character like myself with my actual birthplace without compromising my Nationality or Spoken Language. As I said, it is small fry, but would actually be nice to be accurate.

Edited November 8, 2022 by Leftred
Grammar and typos

[y06fitzy]

35 minutes ago, y06fitzy said:

I'm not English, never had an English passport

I specifically put this in here; I am very staunchly not English, hence the same situation.

It's not a work around; it is working exactly as it would if you and I were managers in real life; From a FIFA / Footballing perspective you have German Nationality, I have English Nationality, in addition to our legal nationalities.

 

The problem is that you are conflating your "Legal Nationality" with "FIFA Nationality"; they are both called nationality but they are different entities.

For this reason, even if you are from a country that does not allow Dual Nationality you can have multiple FIFA nationalities as they are not the same as your legal nationality.

 

The language issue is slightly different and working as intended in the game; any language spoken in a country is assigned to managers with those nationalities, even if the person would only ever speak one language.

Example: If you select "Norwegian" as a nationality, the game would also give you Swedish, Danish, and possibly more, but this is only to simplify things for the player, even though it's unrealistic.

[Leftred]

1 hour ago, y06fitzy said:

I specifically put this in here; I am very staunchly not English, hence the same situation.

I assumed that would be the case.
 

1 hour ago, y06fitzy said:

The problem is that you are conflating your "Legal Nationality" with "FIFA Nationality"; they are both called nationality but they are different entities.

I am not conflating the two, I am treating both separately. The field is Nationality and Second Nationality, in this case, you have interpreted this as "FIFA Nationality". There is another field for eligibility in the game (albeit not for a Manager as there are no in-game FIFA Eligibility rules or Work Permit issues for managers that I am aware of). These are being conflated by yourself, I am separating them based on what the game calls them. 

Also why else would they tie language to nationality, it is possible to be eligible and not speak the language (al la Matty Cash). However, you are less likely to be a national of the country and not speak the language. In fact, I believe to become a German National, among other things, being fluent or proficient in German is essential.

As well as this, AFAIK, the rule about gaining a nationality in-game is based on actual rules for gaining a nationality in real life. Hence why the below is "Days to gain nationality" and not "Days to gain eligibility", or "Days to gain FIFA Nationality", and when they reach that threshold, should they choose too, they gain the additional Nationality and Eligibility if able to do so. 


 

1 hour ago, y06fitzy said:

The language issue is slightly different and working as intended in the game; any language spoken in a country is assigned to managers with those nationalities, even if the person would only ever speak one language.

Example: If you select "Norwegian" as a nationality, the game would also give you Swedish, Danish, and possibly more, but this is only to simplify things for the player, even though it's unrealistic.

Unrealistic is probably correct. As intended is probably also correct. I would suggest this would be nice to change too as allowing the players to create a manager accurately should be the aim. 

And as I stated I am unable to create a manager profile accurate to my nationality/eligibility/language without a workaround.

Edited November 8, 2022 by Leftred
Added a probably to account for my lack of Scandi-linguistics knowledge

[y06fitzy]

6 hours ago, Leftred said:

As well as this, AFAIK, the rule about gaining a nationality in-game is based on actual rules for gaining a nationality in real life. Hence why the below is "Days to gain nationality" and not "Days to gain eligibility", or "Days to gain FIFA Nationality", and when they reach that threshold, should they choose too, they gain the additional Nationality and Eligibility if able to do so. 

The reason for this is that by gaining permanent nationality through residence, you actually gain the FIFA nationality from it (which is depicted in game and why it shows them for players even if they don't accept it, i.e. 'sees no benefit').

 

Articles 5 Points 1 and 2 from FIFA:

1. Any person holding a permanent nationality that is not dependent on residence in a certain country is eligible to play for the representative teams of the association of that country.

2. There is a distinction between holding a nationality and being eligible to obtain a nationality. A player holds a nationality, if, through the operation of a national law, they have: a) automatically received a nationality (e.g. from birth) without being required to undertake any further administrative requirements (e.g. abandoning a separate nationality); or b) acquired a nationality by undertaking a naturalisation process.

 

Essentially, whilst the player / manager is gaining a legal nationality (not technically the in-game one) they also gain the FIFA nationality from the same process (this is the in-game one).

[Leftred]

1 hour ago, y06fitzy said:

The reason for this is that by gaining permanent nationality through residence, you actually gain the FIFA nationality from it (which is depicted in game and why it shows them for players even if they don't accept it, i.e. 'sees no benefit').

The game treats this as two concepts, albeit linked. "FIFA Nationality" is surely "Nations Eligible For". The below player retains his Spanish nationality but is no longer eligible for Spain due to having represented Uruguay. Hypothetically, If he goes on to play in the USA and gains U.S. nationality, he does not gain a new nation to be eligible for, but he will gain a new Other Nationality. Or are they still just "FIFA Nationalities" in your opinion?



Also, playing devil's advocate, why link nationality, eligibility, and language so tightly for managers? I may be wrong but I know of no reason to do so in the game. A manager can manage anywhere. There is no "FIFA Nationality" for management only national rules governing employment, which I don't believe are in the game (for managers). Plus, being a "FIFA National" is no guarantee of speaking the language.

Either way, if we continue playing devil's advocate and treat the Nationality field as "FIFA Nationality",  I still can not create "me" in the game, as a Hannover-born, English Nationality, who can not speak German. There is no workaround for this because of how the above has been implemented. Something small that I would happily see changed and hence the feature request.
 

[y06fitzy]

Quote

Hypothetically, If he goes on to play in the USA and gains U.S. nationality, he does not gain a new nation to be eligible for, but he will gain a new Other Nationality. Or are they still just "FIFA Nationalities" in your opinion?

• He will still gain a FIFA Nationality (for the purposes of determining whether the player should be considered foreign and other eligibility criteria) and potentially for the below:
• There is actually also an additional provision where in the scenario above he could represent the United States as a US player despite playing multiple competitive games for Uruguay; if his declared Uruguayan citizenship is revoked by the Uruguayan government

Indeed, in scenario 2, were he to loose Uruguayan citizenship after gaining additional FIFA nationalities, he coul represent either Spain or the USA.

It's really a bit messy how FIFA do it, but they've been great at making sense.

 

As far as your language comment goes, I would 100% support this, we should have the flexibility to not only set languages other than those of our FIFA nationalities, but to also change the competence languages for all of them as appropriate.

[Jamaicaman90]

On 08/11/2022 at 23:32, y06fitzy said:

• He will still gain a FIFA Nationality (for the purposes of determining whether the player should be considered foreign and other eligibility criteria) and potentially for the below:
• There is actually also an additional provision where in the scenario above he could represent the United States as a US player despite playing multiple competitive games for Uruguay; if his declared Uruguayan citizenship is revoked by the Uruguayan government

Indeed, in scenario 2, were he to loose Uruguayan citizenship after gaining additional FIFA nationalities, he coul represent either Spain or the USA.

It's really a bit messy how FIFA do it, but they've been great at making sense.

 

As far as your language comment goes, I would 100% support this, we should have the flexibility to not only set languages other than those of our FIFA nationalities, but to also change the competence languages for all of them as appropriate.

This is already a feature, but locked behind paid DLC - with the in-game editor you can set up your languages as described. With any other person in the save you can do it with the pre-game editor, but of course your manager does not exist until the save starts...

It certainly should be an option in manager creation rather than an in-game editor hack. I'm not cheating by adding other languages that I can speak - I worked really hard in real life to get to the competencies I have!