Player VAlue "guides"

[Rub Me]

Are a joke. I have Aro Muric as my number one at Burnley. A young goalkeeper which good potential. He has played regularly in a championship-winning season and a prem season where we managed to stay up amassing 25 clean sheets across the two seasons combined. Yet, despite this, he is only "worth" between 1.3 - 2.7m according to the guides. Lazio had a bid of 1.4m rejected and now the player is unhappy and is causing disruption. It's a joke. 

[fc.cadoni]

It's better to understand that transfer values does not take only PA, but other factors as well. Like Home and World Reputation (player), length of contract, type of contract, his playing time tag, age and other factors as well. Single out his performance and PA is not ok to judge the transfer value.

[Rub Me]

Home and World: Hes a premier regular and current international

Length of Contract: Two years left

Type of contract: Key player

Playing time: not missed a league game in two season

 

Ergo, the guide is crap and has now caused issues in the dressing room and to one of my key players. 

[Bielsa1975]

Ignore them thats just AI to AI to transfer the human players pays a premium 

[zindrinho]

35 minutes ago, Bielsa1975 said:

Ignore them thats just AI to AI to transfer the human players pays a premium 

Utter bull, please stop spreading this misinformation about the game treating the player different than the AI in multiple threads.

[fc.cadoni]

@Rub Me what much worth you think must be?

[jcp1417]

If he's unhappy, then his value goes down

[Jellico73]

On Transfermarket right now he's valued at 4M. 

In my 'all countries all players Test save' he's currently rated at 5-15M, in my 2025 save he's at 7.6 to 12.5M at Middlesbrough, who have yo yo'd the last 3 seasons.  Last season he played 43, allowed 33, had 19 Shutouts and a 6.93 ratinf

It looks like his CA/PA range is around the 125/150 mark.  It's quite possible his reputation, both Home and World, haven't gone up.  Take a look at similar keepers from a PA/CA point of view in your save, Pontus Dahlberg, Diego Altube, Iker Alvarez, Matvey Safonev, are their values similar or higher than Muric's?

Jellico

[Rub Me]

1 hour ago, fc.cadoni said:

@Rub Me what much worth you think must be?

Id want at least 10m for my first choice goalkeeper but of course he is kickin off saying thats too much

[Bielsa1975]

5 hours ago, zindrinho said:

Utter bull, please stop spreading this misinformation about the game treating the player different than the AI in multiple threads.

Jobe bellingham value 8.5 million 

Offer 8.5 million birmingham counter offer wanting 18million upfront 6million in installments 30% profit offer 12 million upfront 3million install 1mill after 50 apps 1mill after england cap 500k after 20 goals 25% sell on total 17.5 million ,goes to watford for  8.5 million 

 

[zindrinho]

1 hour ago, Bielsa1975 said:

Jobe bellingham value 8.5 million 

Offer 8.5 million birmingham counter offer wanting 18million upfront 6million in installments 30% profit offer 12 million upfront 3million install 1mill after 50 apps 1mill after england cap 500k after 20 goals 25% sell on total 17.5 million ,goes to watford for  8.5 million 

 

It has nothing to do with who is controlled by the player or the AI. If you think so, post about it in the bugtracker, dont just spew bad info about the game differentiating the AI and us, you've been told that's wrong multiple times.

[Bielsa1975]

1 hour ago, zindrinho said:

It has nothing to do with who is controlled by the player or the AI. If you think so, post about it in the bugtracker, dont just spew bad info about the game differentiating the AI and us, you've been told that's wrong multiple times.

I say what i see , i paid for the game didnt i  ,you just toe the line and bow down to mods

[Jellico73]

6 minutes ago, Bielsa1975 said:

I say what i see , i paid for the game didnt i 

I paid for the game too. 

And when I saw something was up with the loan market numbers I didn't tell the people at SI about it on multiple posts and then not believe them when they said I was wrong.

Rather I opened a bug report, put in about 40 lines of player data I researched from two different saves, and two days later was told that yes, there looks like there is a problem, and we're looking into and and could have a fix for the next patch.

But you keep doing you, I'm sure it will all turn out right in the end...

Jellico

[Bielsa1975]

7 minutes ago, Jellico73 said:

I paid for the game too. 

And when I saw something was up with the loan market numbers I didn't tell the people at SI about it on multiple posts and then not believe them when they said I was wrong.

Rather I opened a bug report, put in about 40 lines of player data I researched from two different saves, and two days later was told that yes, there looks like there is a problem, and we're looking into and and could have a fix for the next patch.

But you keep doing you, I'm sure it will all turn out right in the end...

Jellico

Same bugs in the game for the last 15 years then, maybe one day they might fix it , but what i find interesting is on other forums people moan about it,but on here your shot down for it !!! 

[zindrinho]

1 hour ago, Bielsa1975 said:

I say what i see , i paid for the game didnt i  ,you just toe the line and bow down to mods

The game developers have clearly stated that the game does NOT differentiate between human and AI players. To believe they lie to you to hide the truth makes you a conspiracy-theorist by definition.

[Bielsa1975]

18 minutes ago, zindrinho said:

The game developers have clearly stated that the game does NOT differentiate between human and AI players. To believe they lie to you to hide the truth makes you a conspiracy-theorist by 

They have to sell the game so of course they state that , 

[jcp1417]

8 minutes ago, Bielsa1975 said:

They have to sell the game so of course they state that , 

Your logic is severely flawed. Why would SI program the game to "differentiate between human and AI players" if they had to lie in order to "sell the game"? You make no sense. 

[2feet]

5 hours ago, zindrinho said:

It has nothing to do with who is controlled by the player or the AI. If you think so, post about it in the bugtracker, dont just spew bad info about the game differentiating the AI and us, you've been told that's wrong multiple times.

The club are saying they don't really want to sell a young player with good potential and it will have to be a very good bid for them to do so.

Also your opening bid probably should have been lower.

 

[Bielsa1975]

8 hours ago, jcp1417 said:

Your logic is severely flawed. Why would SI program the game to "differentiate between human and AI players" if they had to lie in order to "sell the game"? You make no sense. 

So you never had a player turn your 2k a week wage down only to sign for AI team on £600 a week in a league below ? You never had a club turn down your 15 mill offer for a 1mill value player only for the club to sell to an AI team for 2million ? I must have brought the only dodgy copy every year then ,and dont get me started on AI XG versus human .

[autohoratio]

10 minutes ago, Bielsa1975 said:

So you never had a player turn your 2k a week wage down only to sign for AI team on £600 a week in a league below ? You never had a club turn down your 15 mill offer for a 1mill value player only for the club to sell to an AI team for 2million ? I must have brought the only dodgy copy every year then ,and dont get me started on AI XG versus human .

If you think you find a bug in the game, it's better to upload a save file from just before it happens to the bug tracker so that SI can investigate to see if it is indeed a bug, and fix the issue if it is. Just ranting about it in the general discussion forum and claiming anyone who hasn't experienced the bug is "bowing down to the mods" or that SI is lying about things isn't helpful.

[zindrinho]

54 minutes ago, Bielsa1975 said:

So you never had a player turn your 2k a week wage down only to sign for AI team on £600 a week in a league below ? You never had a club turn down your 15 mill offer for a 1mill value player only for the club to sell to an AI team for 2million ? I must have brought the only dodgy copy every year then ,and dont get me started on AI XG versus human .

You sound more and more like a sore loser venting some frustration over the game, you didn't even try to answer the question, why would SI go to lengths and spend time making the game treat humans different than the AI and then lie about it because people wouldn't buy the game if they knew it was done. It makes absolutely no sense.

[Jellico73]

1 hour ago, Bielsa1975 said:

So you never had a player turn your 2k a week wage down only to sign for AI team on £600 a week in a league below ? You never had a club turn down your 15 mill offer for a 1mill value player only for the club to sell to an AI team for 2million ? I must have brought the only dodgy copy every year then ,and dont get me started on AI XG versus human .

It's economics and sports, nothing has to make sense.  If it did, Ollie Palmer never would have left League One for the Vanarama National for about the same money.  I mean, who drops down two leagues?  Every player ever offered a higher wage has taken that higher wage?  Players haven't taken less money to start at a lower league club rather than sit on the bench at a higher league club?  Players haven't taken less money to stay at a club they like?  Players haven't taken less money to move to a club they want to move to? 

 

 

[XaW]

Had a bit of a cleanup in here as the thread was stepping outside it's topic. Please bring it back for any future posts, please.

[fc.cadoni]

22 hours ago, Rub Me said:

Id want at least 10m for my first choice goalkeeper but of course he is kickin off saying thats too much

Assuming that "what you want", "what the SI thing", "what AI thing", "what works IRL" "what I think about this" is kind subjective topic.

Anyway, I hope that SI take serious account about "transfer value guide" from CIES (here and here) rather than Transfermarkt. 

[Jellico73]

The CIES work is interesting, but limiting it to the big 5 leagues skews things.   IMO A team like Arsenal paying 30M for a player when other clubs are offering 10M doesn't mean that player is worth 30M, just that they are willing and able to pay 20M more than the others to land him because they really like him.

I don't follow baseball all that match but it would be interesting to look at what player moves were like pre/post the 2007 era when statistics really started being used. 

 

[SergeiG]

9 hours ago, Bielsa1975 said:

So you never had a player turn your 2k a week wage down only to sign for AI team on £600 a week in a league below ? You never had a club turn down your 15 mill offer for a 1mill value player only for the club to sell to an AI team for 2million ? I must have brought the only dodgy copy every year then ,and dont get me started on AI XG versus human .

Jude Bellingham turned down Man United to sign for Dortmund for less money and worse league for development purpose. So did Haaland.

[Bielsa1975]

16 hours ago, SergeiG said:

Jude Bellingham turned down Man United to sign for Dortmund for less money and worse league for development purpose. So did Haaland.

Oh 2 examples of millionaire footballers slumming it in germany for a couple of seasons before a big money move, now give me a 100 examples of lower league players turning down 2k a week to sign in a lower league for £600 or even better sit unemployed for a season or 2 on unattached list !!! Or an agent wanting 2.5k a week but you offer 2k a week and hes disguted with you that he gets his client a £800 a week contract a halifax instead of bradford city !!!

[Cobblers]

Though some of the high end prices on offer for quite a few players are OTT, so opposite to what the OP is claiming, but still relevant, when managing MUFC I flogged them Buendia for £90m with his value set at around £45m.

I was happy with the price and didn't feel as though the AI was out to get me on that transfer. So it can work both ways.

[zindrinho]

On 26/11/2022 at 18:30, Rub Me said:

 Yet, despite this, he is only "worth" between 1.3 - 2.7m according to the guides. Lazio had a bid of 1.4m rejected and now the player is unhappy and is causing disruption. It's a joke. 

So Lazio could have asked his agent if he's willing to move, your GK said yes and Lazio knew he would throw a fit if you rejected their bid for him. If your GK didnt care about the rejected bid it would've been higher - to sway you to sell rather than sway the GK to move.

If I was Lazio, I would do the same thing. 

BTW, the game takes quite some time to recognize your success, and see your team as being "permanently" improved rather than just an overachieveing Burnley that could go on a slump at any time. If you had the same GK in City,Pool etc his price would be higher, naturally, but for the game to recognize burnley as a true contender to city,pool etc takes a long time, the game doesnt seem made for instant fast success, its meant for you to take a loooong time to become a genuine PL contender and not just this seasons Leicester.

[Jellico73]

3 hours ago, Bielsa1975 said:

Oh 2 examples of millionaire footballers slumming it in germany for a couple of seasons before a big money move, now give me a 100 examples of lower league players turning down 2k a week to sign in a lower league for £600 or even better sit unemployed for a season or 2 on unattached list !!! Or an agent wanting 2.5k a week but you offer 2k a week and hes disguted with you that he gets his client a £800 a week contract a halifax instead of bradford city !!!

If I Spent the time an energy to do that you would turn around and ask for 250 examples....post some numbers and examples on the bug forum. Please.

[SergeiG]

7 hours ago, Bielsa1975 said:

Oh 2 examples of millionaire footballers slumming it in germany for a couple of seasons before a big money move, now give me a 100 examples of lower league players turning down 2k a week to sign in a lower league for £600 or even better sit unemployed for a season or 2 on unattached list !!! Or an agent wanting 2.5k a week but you offer 2k a week and hes disguted with you that he gets his client a £800 a week contract a halifax instead of bradford city !!!

LOL. Jude Bellingham was not a millionaire, he was a 17 years old boy from Birmingham with a crap salary and he chose less money for more game time and development.

[Bielsa1975]

2 hours ago, SergeiG said:

LOL. Jude Bellingham was not a millionaire, he was a 17 years old boy from Birmingham with a crap salary and he chose less money for more game time and development.

Do you think he was on more at brum then dortmund ? 

[Bielsa1975]

5 hours ago, Jellico73 said:

If I Spent the time an energy to do that you would turn around and ask for 250 examples....post some numbers and examples on the bug forum. Please.

I can go right back to fm2006 if you like its not a bug its just the way the game is

[Jellico73]

12 minutes ago, Bielsa1975 said:

Do you think he was on more at brum then dortmund ? 

 

He was still on his Youth Conract at Bham when he moved to Dortmund I think, which would have been about 150/w.  Unless he went non league somewhere he was always going to be earning more when he left.

United offered 30M for him, Dortmund 25M.  He's made his desires to play for Liverpool known, so if Liverpool were to offer him a deal and a contract, even if the transfer fee from another club would be higher, he'd most likely go to Liverpool.

It's not just a matter of putting numbers into columns and choosing the greater sum.

[SergeiG]

2 hours ago, Bielsa1975 said:

Do you think he was on more at brum then dortmund ? 

Stop putting words in my mouth, He refused a large chunk of money from United to sign for Dortmund to get more first team football.

[XaW]

Back on topic I just want to highlight that the guides are NOT hardlocked at any rate. I'm currently selling my 4th choice centreback from my League One Marine-team for way more than his player value.

His Guide Value is £250k-£475k, but I just agreed a deal with West Ham for £1.4m + 50% sell-on clause. Why? Because I managed to create a bidding war between lots of clubs.

So, how did this happen? Well, as 4th choice for me in League One he got a lot of matches due to the insane number of matches teams play at this tier. And he has been with me for a while and I had him on a long term deal. Some of the lower Championship teams have been sniffing around him for about a year, but I rejected all offers for a long while, and tried to hold on until deadline day, as teams are often more desperate then. So when I got bids of around £400k, the player came to me and asked to leave. I managed to make deal with him that I would sell him for £1.6m. So that was his set value. A lot of teams came back again with around £500k now. So I negotiated what I wanted and I also played hardball, rejecting most of them. Then I found one team that agreed £1.2 million. So when that happened I offered him out for £1.6m, and then I got bids closer to a million. Some negotiating later, most teams now were willing to offer £1.4m + clauses.

I think it's important to add this to the conversation as many seems to think the AI will only stay under the guide value, but it's not like that. Selling for guide value is simple, but getting the most for him requires a bit more patience and also using both the player and the other teams against each other to create a bidding war. Based on this, and a few other transfers I've done, I'd say I really like how the AI works in this FM regarding transfers. I doubt I'd be able to do the same in previous versions.

[jozza800]

I do wonder what would happen if we removed the player value? A bit like the CA and PA number, it's there we just cant see it.

[KingCanary]

I think one of the reasons this forum can be a somewhat frustrating experience is there is a queue of people always ready to, bluntly, defend the indefensible. 

The OP has a legitimate gripe here on two fronts.

1- There is no way a young, first choice Premier League goalkeeper would be valued at less than £3m. 

2- This artificially low value can't be ignored as his unhappiness is triggered by the team bidding what he sees as an acceptable amount based on the value the game has given him. 

While it is helpful to understand what goes into the values I can't see how anyone with a straight face can claim this situation is correct.

[Nacaw]

Goalkeeper value has been a bit wonky for a couple of versions. I feel like it might be linked to reputation. The goalkeeper in question should have a higher value, 

Regardless, way too many people are complaining about the AI low-balling them when it's exactly what a good AI should do.  Humans usually overpay for the players they want because they don't have the patience to wait for unhappiness to fester, and because it's generally easy to afford overpaying when you are successful. 

[XaW]

16 minutes ago, Nacaw said:

Goalkeeper value has been a bit wonky for a couple of versions. I feel like it might be linked to reputation. The goalkeeper in question should have a higher value, 

Regardless, way too many people are complaining about the AI low-balling them when it's exactly what a good AI should do.  Humans usually overpay for the players they want because they don't have the patience to wait for unhappiness to fester, and because it's generally easy to afford overpaying when you are successful. 

I agree, but then again, Nick Pope went for £10m from Burnley to Newcastle, and he has the "English tax" as well. So I'd say based on what the OP has written in here, I doubt he would be sold for much over £5m compared to Pope.

Also, the whole unhappyness module is due a work-over, I think. Needs to become more nuanced and not as black/white with how situations unfold. For now, I shy away from everything related to promises since it's too arbitrary at times and unhappyness can screw up a season.

[Jellico73]

3 hours ago, KingCanary said:

I think one of the reasons this forum can be a somewhat frustrating experience is there is a queue of people always ready to, bluntly, defend the indefensible. 

The OP has a legitimate gripe here on two fronts.

1- There is no way a young, first choice Premier League goalkeeper would be valued at less than £3m. 

2- This artificially low value can't be ignored as his unhappiness is triggered by the team bidding what he sees as an acceptable amount based on the value the game has given him. 

While it is helpful to understand what goes into the values I can't see how anyone with a straight face can claim this situation is correct.

Jordan Smith would be the 1st Choice keeper for Forrest if they hadn't brought Henderson in on loan from United...he's probably not a 3M pound player, but there in lies the problem:  Value is subjective.  You and I can look at the same player and come up with what we believe is a respectable value for that player with the reasons why, and we could both be wrong.  Or right.

What I read from the OP was that he has a young keeper who is not a full time starter who has 25 clean sheets in 2 years across different levels of competitions.  I would need a lot more info than that to make a judgement calls (Shots stopped, rating, clean sheets per season, team defensive stats, etc), but IMO assuming he's automatically worth X because he's on a Premier League team is what causes a lot of valuation errors in the 1st place.

[KingCanary]

1 hour ago, XaW said:

I agree, but then again, Nick Pope went for £10m from Burnley to Newcastle, and he has the "English tax" as well. So I'd say based on what the OP has written in here, I doubt he would be sold for much over £5m compared to Pope.

Also, the whole unhappyness module is due a work-over, I think. Needs to become more nuanced and not as black/white with how situations unfold. For now, I shy away from everything related to promises since it's too arbitrary at times and unhappyness can screw up a season.

Pope was in a team that had just been relegated and had a year left on his contract so not a great comparison.

[KingCanary]

20 minutes ago, Jellico73 said:

Jordan Smith would be the 1st Choice keeper for Forrest if they hadn't brought Henderson in on loan from United...he's probably not a 3M pound player, but there in lies the problem:  Value is subjective.  You and I can look at the same player and come up with what we believe is a respectable value for that player with the reasons why, and we could both be wrong.  Or right.

What I read from the OP was that he has a young keeper who is not a full time starter who has 25 clean sheets in 2 years across different levels of competitions.  I would need a lot more info than that to make a judgement calls (Shots stopped, rating, clean sheets per season, team defensive stats, etc), but IMO assuming he's automatically worth X because he's on a Premier League team is what causes a lot of valuation errors in the 1st place.

He's said above he's a key player so I'm not sure where you've got not a full time starter in.

Also Jordan Smith is a career backup so not a comparable player in the slightest? He's never been Forest's starter even at a lower level.

[zindrinho]

On 26/11/2022 at 19:19, Rub Me said:

Ergo, the guide is crap and has now caused issues in the dressing room and to one of my key players. 

Seems like OP is long gone, but I dont understand his logic here. Its not the valuation guide that has caused issues in his dressing room, its the simple fact his GK wasn't allowed a move to a bigger club. Lazio is just playing the game here, unsettling him with low bids waiting for him to kick up a fuzz in burnley.

OP might see burnely as a well established PL club now, but clearly his in-game football world does not.

 

On 26/11/2022 at 18:30, Rub Me said:

a prem season where we managed to stay up 

Might suggest that both your GK and Lazio dont see you as an established PL team. If you were a top club things would look very different I'm sure.

[fc.cadoni]

7 hours ago, jozza800 said:

I do wonder what would happen if we removed the player value? A bit like the CA and PA number, it's there we just cant see it.

Value, it's a sum of many parameters in math model inside the code. The "Transfer Value" is what you see (like stars about current ability, which is not the absolute number of CA), the actual value is hidden.

If the game gonna show you "costs 10 mil", you make a bid of 10 mil and then accept it, it's not very suspicious and fun IMHO. Need some scenario to keep it in tension 

[Bielsa1975]

On 29/11/2022 at 04:19, SergeiG said:

Stop putting words in my mouth, He refused a large chunk of money from United to sign for Dortmund to get more first team football.

But he went from say 9k a week to 30k a week in a top division would he have gone to boro for 5k a week no he wouldnt of but in fm world he would

[Bielsa1975]

On 29/11/2022 at 02:27, Jellico73 said:

 

He was still on his Youth Conract at Bham when he moved to Dortmund I think, which would have been about 150/w.  Unless he went non league somewhere he was always going to be earning more when he left.

United offered 30M for him, Dortmund 25M.  He's made his desires to play for Liverpool known, so if Liverpool were to offer him a deal and a contract, even if the transfer fee from another club would be higher, he'd most likely go to Liverpool.

It's not just a matter of putting numbers into columns and choosing the greater sum.

Ok so say your unemployed would you go boston united £500 a week or harrogate 1.5k week ?

[SergeiG]

5 minutes ago, Bielsa1975 said:

Ok so say your unemployed would you go boston united £500 a week or harrogate 1.5k week ?

[Jellico73]

18 minutes ago, Bielsa1975 said:

Ok so say your unemployed would you go boston united £500 a week or harrogate 1.5k week ?

Not enough info there, so let me add onto it for you:

You are a Boston United fan, you grew up following them after you moved away, and now have the opportunity to be a regular starter for them.

Harrogate wants you to be a fringe player, and like all players, you want a long career, and regular playing time.

So, 500 a week with a game every week, or 1500 a month with possible no games over the course of a season.

Why are you choosing Harrowgate?

[Bielsa1975]

On 01/12/2022 at 19:19, Jellico73 said:

Not enough info there, so let me add onto it for you:

You are a Boston United fan, you grew up following them after you moved away, and now have the opportunity to be a regular starter for them.

Harrogate wants you to be a fringe player, and like all players, you want a long career, and regular playing time.

So, 500 a week with a game every week, or 1500 a month with possible no games over the course of a season.

Why are you choosing Harrowgate?

Reg starter for both teams ,your agent thinks your worth 2k a week , so refuses your 1.5k a week basic offer and insteads gets you £500 a week at boston not bad for a 28 year old sheff weds fan from sheffield !