Assman says MM. I say never do that! Whose right?

[SimonHoddle]

Playing against City who are playing 433. Foden on left wing and Silva on right. Assman OI says always MM both but in my experience that only ever drags players out of position. So I always press both in OI instead. 

Got beaten royally as my CBs kept chasing out of their positions to always press the City wingers. And passes into free AMs and CFs were a doddle for the opposition.

are OIs basically a waste of time? They only ever drag you out of position. 

Edited December 3, 2022 by SimonHoddle

[DarJ]

5 hours ago, SimonHoddle said:

are OIs basically a waste of time? They only ever drag you out of position. 

Not really there is a way to do it properly.

Here is an example of it done right 

https://youtu.be/F8LlFZcIqL4

[ftblmanager]

6 hours ago, SimonHoddle said:

are OIs basically a waste of time? They only ever drag you out of position. 

This is my experience in fm23. Couldn't buy a win, and literally the only thing I changed was stopping adding OI instructions went on a great run.  

[SimonHoddle]

1 hour ago, DarJ said:

Not really there is a way to do it properly.

Here is an example of it done right 

https://youtu.be/F8LlFZcIqL4

That’s helpful. Thank you. 
still think it’s a thorny subject. Ultimately because the instructions are so basic, and SI keeps it ambiguous, if you MM or press the result can v often be players constantly out of position. According to the video the player should dial down team pressing. Wish SI would give more details 

[SimonHoddle]

49 minutes ago, ftblmanager said:

This is my experience in fm23. Couldn't buy a win, and literally the only thing I changed was stopping adding OI instructions went on a great run.  

Haha. Not the answer I’m looking for! In other words we should do less. Football Manager ends up being a game of picking a team and waiting for the result. I’ll definitely try zero OIs.

[ftblmanager]

On 03/12/2022 at 23:34, SimonHoddle said:

Haha. Not the answer I’m looking for! In other words we should do less. Football Manager ends up being a game of picking a team and waiting for the result. I’ll definitely try zero OIs.

Just my experience. I've noticed during games if I add them it does what you're saying. The man marking doesn't seem to be right imo, but again limited to my experience of the game. 

[DMVian]

On 03/12/2022 at 16:35, DarJ said:

Not really there is a way to do it properly.

Here is an example of it done right 

https://youtu.be/F8LlFZcIqL4

Brilliant video.

I'm now completely sold on OIs for defense. I think the standard team rules are simple and sufficient, but I liked his mid-block with OI press much more. And it actually played out like a real football tactic.

[DarJ]

5 minutes ago, DMVian said:

Brilliant video.

I'm now completely sold on OIs for defense. I think the standard team rules are simple and sufficient, but I liked his mid-block with OI press much more. And it actually played out like a real football tactic.

I do something similar with a high press but I don't like to put tackle hard on strikers and AMs because it might result in a penalty since those players enter the box frequently 

[Dotsworthy]

I never use OIs, I always want to get my formation and base tactic right first before looking at OI tweaks, then by the time I'm happy we win without them 

[gunnerfan]

My approach is to accept the AM’s suggested OIs but then review them right after the pregame team talk and tweak anything I disagree with. I rarely see a MM OI, and often find myself adding always press for the opponent’s most dangerous playmaker.

[themadsheep2001]

On 03/12/2022 at 21:35, DarJ said:

Not really there is a way to do it properly.

Here is an example of it done right 

https://youtu.be/F8LlFZcIqL4

This. I use OIs as at extension of my tactic. High pressing in a 4-2-3-1? Then i trigger presses on the entire back line, force the full backs inside and hard tackle any central players. 

Playing a low block, then it's the front half of the opposition that get the treatment instead 

[callamity]

On 07/12/2022 at 22:28, themadsheep2001 said:

This. I use OIs as at extension of my tactic. High pressing in a 4-2-3-1? Then i trigger presses on the entire back line, force the full backs inside and hard tackle any central players. 

Playing a low block, then it's the front half of the opposition that get the treatment instead 

You must have the best defensive free kick set up in your low blocks 🤣

 

But this is generally what I used to do, prior to fm21 when I had to change to tight marking the striker only due to hoofball = goal conceded.

 

 

Edited December 9, 2022 by callamity

[themadsheep2001]

5 minutes ago, callamity said:

You must have the best defensive free kock set up in your low blocks 🤣

 

But this is generally what I used to do, prior to fm21 when I had to change to tight marking the striker only due to hoofball = goal conceded.

 

 

Let's just say it's effective but lives on the edge and requires a good sized squad

[SimonHoddle]

Appreciate all the replies. Further to this topic.

just played Napoli (parenthesis or whatever their unbranded name is..).

assman said OI never MM victor Osimhen. Really!!!??? Never MM one of the most dangerous forwards in football? Even when he’s in my 6 yard box??? In same match AM a,so advised to never press their WB with a wand of a left foot! Just let him roam free I guess! Crossing perfect balls in for their unmarked £100m striker 🤪

[SC00P0NE]

19 minutes ago, SimonHoddle said:

Appreciate all the replies. Further to this topic.

just played Napoli (parenthesis or whatever their unbranded name is..).

assman said OI never MM victor Osimhen. Really!!!??? Never MM one of the most dangerous forwards in football? Even when he’s in my 6 yard box??? In same match AM a,so advised to never press their WB with a wand of a left foot! Just let him roam free I guess! Crossing perfect balls in for their unmarked £100m striker 🤪

assman prolly says that because Osi is very fast?

[SimonHoddle]

8 minutes ago, SC00P0NE said:

assman prolly says that because Osi is very fast?

I get that but never MM? That’s absurd. IMO the instruction isn’t fit for purpose. Never MM outside the box would be better. Where he has space to run into. But never MM is just plain stupid.

[Neil Brock]

I mix it up depending on the opposition. My AM's tactical knowledge isn't great (10/20) so I don't trust him that much anyway, plus he loves to get stuck in at every opportunity as well  If the opposition have a pacey striker I'm more wary of having someone tightly MM as they can quite easily get turned or fall foul to a ball in behind. Saying that, if there's say a slow playmaker I'll almost certainly ask the team to pick him up to try and reduce their influence on the game. 

[SimonHoddle]

39 minutes ago, Neil Brock said:

I mix it up depending on the opposition. My AM's tactical knowledge isn't great (10/20) so I don't trust him that much anyway, plus he loves to get stuck in at every opportunity as well  If the opposition have a pacey striker I'm more wary of having someone tightly MM as they can quite easily get turned or fall foul to a ball in behind. Saying that, if there's say a slow playmaker I'll almost certainly ask the team to pick him up to try and reduce their influence on the game. 

So keep it simple. If they’re slow and creative always MM. if they’re quick never MM? What about TAA at Liverpool? Would you always MM a RB?

I guess my point is more fixed on the instruction itself. Always or never are so binary and unrealistic tbh. If I’m always MM a creative opponent I don’t want him MMd in the opposition box. Conversely if I’m never MMing an opponent I do want my defenders to  stick close to him in our box. The fallibility of the instruction is making OIs a bit redundant IMO.

or….SI could explain the instructions and consequences in a lot more detail….

 

[SimonHoddle]

A case in point. 2 examples of OI instructions completely ignored by a world class defence. Either the ME has completely failed to represent the events or OIs are randomly ineffectual.

 

First example above playing Leicester. Maddison is AMR and as their danger man I have OI always press. He collects the ball on right touchline and serenely makes his way to centre of box as above. There are intentionally no OIs on other players to avoid distractions. Literally no one challenged him. So someone who should be always pressed is actually never pressed and runs to penalty spot and scores. (Btw pedri was never close to him so the commentary is talking balls)

2nd example. Playing Newcastle. I have always mark Isak as an OI. guess who the one Newcastle player is in my box, completely unmarked? Even without an OI of always mark someone should be close to him when he’s a few yards from goal. But with the instruction it’s a joke.

my defenders are bastoni and Romero. My DM is Bentancur. No mugs there. So why, with clear basic OIs, are they not following instructions? Dodgy ME? Dodgy tactics? Dodgy defenders?

happening too often and it’s why this game gets criticised for never get defending properly programmed……IMO

 

[themadsheep2001]

The issue here is you're applying binary logic when you shouldn't. You can't simply explain them because it's not a case or a+b=c

[SimonHoddle]

1 hour ago, themadsheep2001 said:

The issue here is you're applying binary logic when you shouldn't. You can't simply explain them because it's not a case or a+b=c

And nuance and ambiguity are good things I agree. It means you have to think to succeed. 

but too much ambiguity and not enough clarity leads to frustration. You can’t ask your  players why they ran away from an opponent you told to always press. You can’t sit down with them on a Monday and replay the video of 5 of them ignoring a striker on the 6 yard line.

If it was great skill on Maddison’s part or great movement by  Isak I’d be fine. But its neither. Just world class defenders playing like crash test dummies. So there has to be a why. 

its a point I make every year. OIs are by definition ridiculous, please update them.

And IMO there is not enough clarity of why ridiculous actions/ results  happen. 
 

btw I’m not complaining about losing (lost 4-1 to Newcastle in Isak example above, having had 21 shots v their 6). That’s fine by me. IF……I could logically understand why.

Edited December 15, 2022 by SimonHoddle