History taken from overall table instead of playoffs

[Ominous77]

Hi!

I have a competition that's divided into three stages: Opening stage (league), Closing stage (group + playoff between both group winners) and a Championship playoff (between the winners of both stages). Additionally, I have an Overall table just to show the performance of the teams across the two stages, nothing happens here (for now).

When the winner of the Op Stage and the playoff is the same, it's automatically crowned champion. If not, then the champion is the winner of the Championship playoff.

For the first scenario, in the "past winners" tab, it just shows the winner, no runner-up or third placed team. For the second scenario, it takes both teams participating in the Championship playoff, no third placed team again. And finally, in both cases, the league position recorded in each club's history is taken from the overall table, ignoring the Championship playoffs results.

The idea would be to show the following in the "Past Winners" tab and also in the club's history record:
-Automatic champion scenario: 1st for champion, 2nd for playoff loser, 3rd for best placed team in the overall table that's not any of the previous two teams.
-Other scenario: 1st for Championship's playoff winner, 2nd for Championship's playoff loser, 3rd for playoff loser.

I'm using FM17, so I don't know if someone here still uses it. In case someone does, I can share the file without issues.

Thanks!

 

[nicholas.shen]

Sounds like a Peru league.

In FM17, do you have the below stage actions in other stage rules?

Don't use automatically add history, use stage action instead.

[Ominous77]

It's the Uruguayan Third League (I made it playable).

I did this (as you suggested). Stage 2 is the first playoff and stage 3 is the Championship playoff:

In the game looks like this now:

It shows duplicated stats and the positions correspond to Stage 0 standings.

What do you think could be wrong?

Thanks!

[nicholas.shen]

Have you turned off automatically add history?

[Ominous77]

Yes, I did.

[nicholas.shen]

In the history, have you set the team order for top 3 teams?

 

Or you can try to enter the stage index in the "Stage to use for placings"

[Ominous77]

I don't have the "team order for the top 3 teams" tab (at least not with that name).

I did try with the "add history record" thing and still looks duplicated, just that one line corresponds to the championship playoff winner (the winner of the competition) and the second line I'm not actually sure (I think it gets the standings of the overall table, which would be stage 4).

[themodelcitizen]

In the league there should be a stage flag "don't use this stage to rank teams" or something, and in the cup maybe check the box for "winner is not champion" or something just to make sure the new box that shows up is unchecked.

Could also be an issue with ranking levels, you could check those for the league and as a last resort make it so whoever finished first has 0 as highest possible ranking and whatever the lowest possible playoff finish is as their lowest ranking

[Ominous77]

I have that "don't use this stage to rank teams" flag added for the overall table stage, and also the "top teams are champions" ticked and unchecked.

Rankings for the comp look like this:

For the playoffs I have set 0 for the winner and 1 for the loser, and 2 for the loser of the second playoff.

[themodelcitizen]

Those are for the league? If so you just need to get the hang of ranking levels. "current" can be 0 for anyone making the next stage, the Board knows you can still win it all. "highest" should obviously be 0 for anyone making the next stage. "Lowest" for those teams needs to be the lowest possible ranking they'll end up with in the playoffs.

In general, 0 is winner, 1 is runner-up, 2 is semifinal losers (if you have a third place game it's 2 and 3), and so on. In the comp itself, the ranking info at the bottom can also be filled out (0 as competition winner, 1 with "final" and "qualified to this stage", same with 2 for semis (2 teams).

It's intuitive when you get the hang of it. It looks like you're telling it that 2nd, 3rd and 4th in the league should all be ranked fourth overall? If you don't fill out highest and lowest, it just takes current as their final standing

[themodelcitizen]

Based on your last sentence the top 4 in the league should all have 0 as highest and 2 as lowest, right? Then 5th should be ranked 3 (can leave highest and lowest blank if this is their final ranking). 6th is 4. Etc

[Ominous77]

The last picture, with the rankings level info, is for the overall competition.

For the first playoff (between the closing stage group winners), I have set the ranking to 0 for the winner and 1 (2, in the case the winner here is different from the opening stage winner) for the loser.


Then, for the championship playoff (between opening stage winner and playoff winner), I have set the rankings to 0 and 1.

Stage 4 (overall table) is just to show the teams' performance during the season and to show the status the reached (Champion, Promoted, etc, the color bars, like UCL qualification). Here I have this:

I left the "Store league history" on here so there's something to show in the club's overview tab. If there was a way to do it without it, It would be great.
Finally, for the whole competition, the rankings are as follow:


Let me know if you need more info.

Thanks!

[themodelcitizen]

Maybe I'm missing something, but why would the closing stage loser have "current ranking" set to 2? What if they end up winning everything? You've just told it that the closing stage loser will be ranked 3rd overall in the comp no matter what. The game can't possibly know that this is only a backup in case the same team wins both.

If they have ranking levels set at all for that stage, the loser should probably have highest 0 and lowest as the lowest possible overall ranking in the comp, right? I'm not sure I've explained the whole highest/lowest thing properly

[themodelcitizen]

And I don't think you need to set ranking levels for the overall comp. At least not in that way, I think that's for subcomps (you're now telling it that first overall, which it should already recognize as the Championship playoff winner from the stage rankings, can also finish between first and third overall). I usually leave that blank for the comp and set the next tab, "ranking level info" or whatever it is, for Board expectation type stuff. Seems to line up with how all the default comps are set up. Can always post your file and someone will be able to clean up the rankings

Edited December 10, 2022 by themodelcitizen

[Ominous77]

The closing stage playoff loser should be ranked 3rd after everything is finished. That's one of the things I'm asking help with.

The opening stage (league) produces a winner, with ranking 0.


The closing stage group A and B winners go to a playoff, where the winner gets a ranking of 0 (if it's the same as the winner of the op stage, which makes the next stage to not take place) or 1. The loser should get ranking 2 (third place overall).


Then, the championship winner should get ranking 0 and loser 1.


Additionally, these teams should show as 1st, 2nd and 3rd for the comp in the club's overview history, and then the rest of the teams should get their finishing position from the overall table (stage 4).

That's how I understood it, but it seems I cannot figure out how to set it up in the editor.

[themodelcitizen]

Post your file

[themodelcitizen]

Not sure I understand the format mind you, but what if the closing stage loser already won the opening stage? Why would you tell the game that closing stage loser is 3rd overall no matter what in that case?

[themodelcitizen]

In addition the first screen in your post makes no sense based on what you've said, why would 2nd, 3rd, and 4th in that stage have "current ranking" at 3? In the absence of a highest and lowest ranking, you're telling the game that those teams can ONLY finish with an overall ranking of 3 in the competition. That doesn't sound remotely consistent with what you're saying

[themodelcitizen]

Quote

where the winner gets a ranking of 0 (if it's the same as the winner of the op stage, which makes the next stage to not take place) or 1. The loser should get ranking 2 (third place overall).

This is technically correct but I'm not sure you're looking at it the right way. The highest and lowest ranking are the highest and lowest rankings they can achieve after all the subsequent stages are done, not the highest and lowest they can achieve depending on whether other stages are drawn or not. This might just be confusing, happy to help on Discord or something, but at this point it's either post your file, or re-read everything I've said

Edited December 10, 2022 by themodelcitizen

[Ominous77]

I uploaded the file.

I never understood fully how the rankings work, specially what "current" refers to. That's why I'm asking for help. Don't take what I've set up as something that makes sense, because I'm having issues there (hence why I asked).

Also, for more info on what I'm trying to do, check my first post. If you still don't understand then I'm happy to explain it again in detail here.

Thanks!

v44.2_10116C17-FF57-4752-B049-908AA4B29436.fmf

Edited December 10, 2022 by Ominous77

[themodelcitizen]

All good, "current" is just that - when stage 1 ends, a team's "current" ranking is what the Board will look at. In most cases, it's the same as highest - if you finish 4th in an early stage but you can still win everything, your "current" should be 0 (first overall) because as far as the Board's concerned you're still on course to win everything.

So by that logic, EVERYONE in your opening stage should have a highest ranking at 0, right? And current, for that matter? Because even the team finishing last in the opening stage could still end up winning the overall champions playoff? I might consider scrapping ranking levels in that stage entirely.

I'm not sure you can get the closing stage loser to always be third, though, because it might be the same team that won the opening stage. I'll set highest to 0 and lowest to 2, that might work actually. Will play with it and post it up in a bit

EDIT: sorry I don't have older FMs installed, it doesn't show up on FM23. You can try exporting as an XML and uploading it, maybe we can look at it that way.

Alternately I'm happy to try and explain more if you don't understand certain aspects of what I'm saying. In general it's quite intuitive and easy once you grasp what the ranking levels actually do.

Edited December 10, 2022 by themodelcitizen

[Ominous77]

Here's  the xml file.v44.2.xml

So I should just not use rankings except for the playoff and championship playoff?

Where should I use rankings then? Just at comp level?

Thanks!

v44.2.xml

[themodelcitizen]

On further thought, I'd scrap ranking levels for the opening league stage. I might not even use them for the opening stage final, but if that's causing issues I'd give the winner current/highest as 0 and lowest as 1 (because no matter what they're finishing second overall or higher, right?). The loser can have current/highest as 0 (because they can still come back and win everything in the closing and championship, right?)

Closing final should have winner as current/highest 0 (obviously), lowest 1 (because they can only finish second overall or higher depending on how they do in the Champions Playoff, right?). Loser should probably have current/highest 0 (because they might still be able to win everything if they've already won opening stage, right?). Lowest as whatever the lowest overall ranking in the comp is (because they can still finish bottom on the overall table and not go int he closing stage playoff, which would mean they finish bottom overall, right?)

Then, in the Champions Playoff, the winner will have current = 0 (no highest and lowest, because they're done here). Loser will have 1 current. (edit: corrected a number here)

I might scrap league rankings overall because of how they can be affected by everything I've just said. Get rid of that "don't rank teams using this stage" flag because we do actually want that to rank the teams that aren't already being assigned a ranking in the specific stages mentioned above. Feel free to ask for clarification.

Edited December 10, 2022 by themodelcitizen

[themodelcitizen]

3 minutes ago, Ominous77 said:

Here's  the xml file.v44.2.xml

So I should just not use rankings except for the playoff and championship playoff?

Where should I use rankings then? Just at comp level?

Thanks!

v44.2.xml 391.31 kB · 0 downloads

As I said above, I don't see why ranking levels for the competition itself would be any use her, just ranking level info (which will correspond to the ranking levels in various stages).

Also, to add to what I just said about removing the "don't rank teams using this stage" flag - you might want to make that overall table stage 0 or something, just show it shows up when you click on the competition first, the game knows its the main league stage, assign European spots etc

[themodelcitizen]

If you're still stuck, I think it will be infinitely more helpful if you look at other people's files and how they've handled rankings. If you're still stuck someone will look at it. But ranking levels are such an intrinsic part of advanced rules (especially with a complex system like this) I think you need to grasp it yourself or it will just lead to more issues

[Ominous77]

I just copied the "Campeonato Uruguayo" competition, that follows almost the exact format, except the closing stage there is a league stage, not a group stage with playoff.

So, I just use ranking levels in all of the stages and nothing for the comp? Would that affect the automatic champion thing?

Thanks for the help.

[themodelcitizen]

I'll take a closer look when I've had a chance to eat and sleep. In general just re-read my last big post and ask yourself those questions, think about how that relates to what you're trying to do.

EDIT: along with the post after, it also directly answers your question about ranking levels in stages and not the comp, so now I'm wondering if you're actually reading what I'm saying and just want someone to fix it for you, lol.

Edited December 10, 2022 by themodelcitizen

[Ominous77]

With all due respect, I'm not asking for someone to fix it for me, I'm looking for someone who can help make sense of what is wrong and how to fix it, so I can learn.

Sorry if I'm not that experienced like you. I've read everything you posted several times, and if I keep asking it's because I still have doubts.

Anyways, sorry to bother you.

[themodelcitizen]

Alright, apologies for sounding cross, just dealing with some stuff and it came across in my reply. I know it's intimidating to figure out all this convoluted stuff. If you need anything I've explained clarified, I'm happy to help