What are the limits of the player instructions "mark specific player" and "mark specific position"?

[kellettchris]

Short version:  Does anyone have definitive information about how the player instructions “mark specific player” and “mark specific position” interact with team instructions, player instructions, and mentalities?

Long version:

I get my FM kicks out of getting obscure tactics to work.  I’m having particular fun in FM 23 with defence.  But my latest fiddle is encountering problems introducing a strict man-marking system with one free active defender who I want to lead the press.

I started by setting up a 5-2-1-2.  My free defender is the D (C).  I tell him to “mark specific position” the M (C) – the idea being he drops back when in possession to allow the D (CL) and D (CR) to split wide and let the WBs go forward.  Out of possession, we transition to a back 4, with the D (C) pushing up as a ‘blitzer’.  Everyone else except the front 3 is told to man mark tightly (I assign which man before each game).

When playing against a 4-2-3-1, here West Ham, I have to set ‘slide left’ or ‘slide right’ protection to line up my defenders man-to-man.  In this example, let’s slide right towards Fornais.  I set up man-to-man as follows:

D (CL) -> ST

D (CR) -> AM (L)

WB (L) -> AM (R)

M (CL) -> AM (C)

M (CR) -> DM (CR)

WB (R) -> DM (CL)

I also set up to push them out wide, maybe adding in instructions to show their DMs left, towards my defensive strength.  I may need to pull my WB (L) back and inside a bit as he is one-on-one.  I also switch the ‘blitzer’’s focus from M (C) to M (CL), with the idea of switching this to M (L), AM (L), AM (CL), or back to M (C) as the game plays out.  As I am not man-marking the FBs, if they are pushed forward I’ll simply allow it, but split my forwards and counter direct down the channels.

But the game doesn’t play as expected.  Firstly, my ‘blitzing’ D (C) doesn’t move from his D (C) spot.  Other tests with other positions have shown me that “mark specific position” is ignored if the chosen position is too unorthodox.  The frustration is I don’t know the rules.  Things like “more disciplined”, “tight marking”, and mentality make a difference.  Two AM (CL/CR)s will split to mark WB positions on defensive but not cautious, for example.  And I don’t know how tactical familiarity and teamwork affect this (I’d be quite happy to start a save where scouts look for teamwork only!).

Secondly, the man-marking only works with minimum team pressing, player instructions to mark tightly, and opposition instructions.  Even then, players often get distracted by opponents closer to their set position.  Now, players being late to follow runs is exactly how I want this tactic to concede goals – it’s meant to be the weakness of man-marking –, but I’m talking here about players not looking at the right man even after the ball is in the net.  Also, I’m worried going zero pressing will impede the pressing traps I am trying to set up with the ‘blitzer’ and opposition instructions.

I’m not expecting anything to ‘work’.  I’d be bored if it did.  But I can only tinker so much before realising there are too many variables to be certain of the limits.  So I am looking for specific information about how the game assigns defenders to attackers.  I’d be happy with the code or just the logic.  Failing that, I’d like to share examples of ‘extreme’ marking schemes, regardless of efficacy, from which to learn about the game.

Thanks!

[Fritz13]

Saw a YouTube video which said mark position marks the area that position would usually be in

…  but marking the player of course tracks as the player moves.

 

will try to dig out the vid

[Fritz13]

 

So mark position means you track any one who comes into that area of the pitch - so could be any opposition player.

Edited December 8, 2022 by Fritz13

[DarJ]

3 hours ago, Fritz13 said:

So mark position means you track any one who comes into that area of the pitch - so could be any opposition player.

I watched that video and I disagree with that.

I explained it while replying to a question someone asked here

 

And the way they interact with the team instructions and mentality is that those zones can be bigger or smaller to the point where 2 or 3 players zone can overlap. For example on attacking mentality it would be bigger than the zone on balanced mentality and then your line of engagement and defensive line will also have an influence. If you ask your team to press more, all it does is increase that zone and vice versa when you ask them to press less 

 

Edited December 8, 2022 by DarJ

[DarJ]

5 hours ago, kellettchris said:

my ‘blitzing’ D (C) doesn’t move from his D (C) spot

what you're looking for is impossible to achieve in the ME. The closest you will get to it is if you moved the middle DC to the DM position and play him maybe as a HB then ask him to man mark the AMC position. That way the HB will drop between the defenders out of possession but he will also move a bit higher when your team has the ball

Edited December 8, 2022 by DarJ

[b2khn]

Okay, here are my observations and thoughts.

You want specific players of your team marking specific players of the opposition. It works like that, your player will be drawn away from his defensive position and mark/press **every** player that plays in the position of the specific player you asked him to mark.

What this means is; once it is beneficial you don't want to react to changes in players to that position but you want to react to tactical changes, because players then get drawn away to another that would maybe not be beneficial anymore.

For your players in a backline you don't want them to mark a player that is not in their zone, otherwise you will make space and concede goals.

For your players in the front, you can make decision to let them mark maybe a cb or fb, to let them mark that player that otherwise be free, cause he is normaly not in his zone.

Edited December 9, 2022 by b2khn

[Speedyol]

The way I understand it; If you mark a possistion, the same position will still be marked after a substitute or if 2 players swap positions on the field. If you man mark a player, you will not mark the new person that replace him when he is subbed off. And you will mark him wherever he is on the pitch, even if he is moved from striker to defender during the game.. I might be wrong.

[Speedyol]

On 08/12/2022 at 12:38, kellettchris said:

But the game doesn’t play as expected.  Firstly, my ‘blitzing’ D (C) doesn’t move from his D (C) spot.  Other tests with other positions have shown me that “mark specific position” is ignored if the chosen position is too unorthodox.  The frustration is I don’t know the rules.  Things like “more disciplined”, “tight marking”, and mentality make a difference.  Two AM (CL/CR)s will split to mark WB positions on defensive but not cautious, for example.  And I don’t know how tactical familiarity and teamwork affect this (I’d be quite happy to start a save where scouts look for teamwork only!).

Secondly, the man-marking only works with minimum team pressing, player instructions to mark tightly, and opposition instructions.  Even then, players often get distracted by opponents closer to their set position.  Now, players being late to follow runs is exactly how I want this tactic to concede goals – it’s meant to be the weakness of man-marking –, but I’m talking here about players not looking at the right man even after the ball is in the net.  Also, I’m worried going zero pressing will impede the pressing traps I am trying to set up with the ‘blitzer’ and opposition instructions.

I thought man marking was related to corners and free kicks. It might be useful to have a tall player man mark a tall opponent player. And it might only happen during corners and free kicks? Do you think that is a good idea?

[wazzaflow10]

On 08/12/2022 at 08:20, Fritz13 said:

 

So mark position means you track any one who comes into that area of the pitch - so could be any opposition player.

Does this same rule apply for opposition instructions?

[b2khn]

This is the way you would think about it, but is not case.

'Mark specific player' works in the way that you decribed 'mark specific position'.

The 'mark specific position' button maybe it does the thing the video describes, but I don't see it working.

For me if I want to have my strikers mark a position I mark players, it works very well and does not require a switch of PI when player changes position or get subbed.

The latter option is rp.

Edited December 10, 2022 by b2khn

[kellettchris]

Sorry for the delay, but thanks everyone for contributing!

I completely agree with the general concept of expanding zones for defenders based upon instructions, mentalities, etc.  But I still don't understand how mark position and mark player override this.

I have experimentally confirmed that mark player instructions 'survive' substitutions and formation changes.  I've also confirmed mark position works insofar as players will mark that position (and vacate their spot) if it is sufficiently close.  Just a thought, but maybe said position must be within the pressing zone for mark position to take effect?

@b2khn  If I set a D (C) to mark an opposing D (C) nothing happens.  I'm not saying it should, but I want to know where the game draws the 'that's too stupid' line.

@DarJ  I tried DM HB and BWM for a few matches each.  Worked okay, but didn't have the initiative on defence I wanted.  Both too conservative.  I really want 'the other halfback' - basically the exact opposite of a HB (i.e. zero work rate when we're in possession).  For my actual save, the D (C) was changed to an M (C) BWM, but that's beside the point.  I want to find out why the D (C) didn't work.

[SimonHoddle]

3 hours ago, kellettchris said:

Sorry for the delay, but thanks everyone for contributing!

I completely agree with the general concept of expanding zones for defenders based upon instructions, mentalities, etc.  But I still don't understand how mark position and mark player override this.

I have experimentally confirmed that mark player instructions 'survive' substitutions and formation changes.  I've also confirmed mark position works insofar as players will mark that position (and vacate their spot) if it is sufficiently close.  Just a thought, but maybe said position must be within the pressing zone for mark position to take effect?

@b2khn  If I set a D (C) to mark an opposing D (C) nothing happens.  I'm not saying it should, but I want to know where the game draws the 'that's too stupid' line.

@DarJ  I tried DM HB and BWM for a few matches each.  Worked okay, but didn't have the initiative on defence I wanted.  Both too conservative.  I really want 'the other halfback' - basically the exact opposite of a HB (i.e. zero work rate when we're in possession).  For my actual save, the D (C) was changed to an M (C) BWM, but that's beside the point.  I want to find out why the D (C) didn't work.

This is a very tactical and developed critique based around my more general complaint. In all the years of FM, SII have never truly explained the OIs and marking dynamics properly. (maybe intentionally to create doubt and difficulty)

however close it gets to the beautiful game, FM is not football. It has its own rules. And the oblique way those game rules are explained I believe makes the game less enjoyable. 

[b2khn]

11 hours ago, kellettchris said:

Sorry for the delay, but thanks everyone for contributing!

I completely agree with the general concept of expanding zones for defenders based upon instructions, mentalities, etc.  But I still don't understand how mark position and mark player override this.

I have experimentally confirmed that mark player instructions 'survive' substitutions and formation changes.  I've also confirmed mark position works insofar as players will mark that position (and vacate their spot) if it is sufficiently close.  Just a thought, but maybe said position must be within the pressing zone for mark position to take effect?

@b2khn  If I set a D (C) to mark an opposing D (C) nothing happens.  I'm not saying it should, but I want to know where the game draws the 'that's too stupid' line.

@DarJ  I tried DM HB and BWM for a few matches each.  Worked okay, but didn't have the initiative on defence I wanted.  Both too conservative.  I really want 'the other halfback' - basically the exact opposite of a HB (i.e. zero work rate when we're in possession).  For my actual save, the D (C) was changed to an M (C) BWM, but that's beside the point.  I want to find out why the D (C) didn't work.

Well, naturaly a central defender is not able to mark the opponents central defender, he should be able to mark a opponents striker.

But, like I said before and described it in the other discussions; You realy don't want that, because it is tacticaly "wrong" to do that.

Maybe the AI will not expose those marking, but if you play MP the opponent human player will use roles that drop deep and wide, which will lead to big gaps where late runners can then act without any pressure.

Upfront you can (and should?) mark specific players, that would be the opponents cd, fb/wb and/or dm. But you would use your offensive outer players to mark their defensive outer player and your offensive inner player to mark their defensiv inner player. If you then pressure the pass receiver of those marked players passes, you will force the turn over.

[SimonHoddle]

5 hours ago, b2khn said:

Well, naturaly a central defender is not able to mark the opponents central defender, he should be able to mark a opponents striker.

But, like I said before and described it in the other discussions; You realy don't want that, because it is tacticaly "wrong" to do that.

Maybe the AI will not expose those marking, but if you play MP the opponent human player will use roles that drop deep and wide, which will lead to big gaps where late runners can then act without any pressure.

Upfront you can (and should?) mark specific players, that would be the opponents cd, fb/wb and/or dm. But you would use your offensive outer players to mark their defensive outer player and your offensive inner player to mark their defensiv inner player. If you then pressure the pass receiver of those marked players passes, you will force the turn over.

So, for example, would you instruct your winger to MM a high quality full back?

and assuming the opposition is a short passing team you would then use an OI to always press the technically weakest CB ? 

[b2khn]

1 hour ago, SimonHoddle said:

So, for example, would you instruct your winger to MM a high quality full back?

and assuming the opposition is a short passing team you would then use an OI to always press the technically weakest CB ? 

Observation and reaction, would rather go for the DM/CM to press and let the CD play his simple pass.
Second picture shows how deep and wide strikers are defending fb/wb. When CM/DM is pressed, no progressive pass can be made, forcing backpass to GK.

Edited December 16, 2022 by b2khn