Íbis Sport Club - The Attributeless, Blind Scouting, 5-2-2-1 Years!

[bababooey]

Just now, Cleon said:

That's not really how I play. But the simplest thing to do would be to look at the TI's they all have. There is no style. It's just a name given to a specific set of TI's that are grouped together. And choose the ones that fit the shape the most.  Gengen for example Id never use that in a 4141 as everyone will be too deep initially for the intense press and they'll be chasing shadows. Especially the striker. A bit like the example I posted in the analysis in this thread.

If you really want to feel a match though you'd just use clean slate and add instructions based on what you want the players to do, that they currently arent. That is the most balanced because it's the most natural one due to not having any TI's.

Makes sense. One other thing I forgot..  Do you know why none of the presets use the mid block setting? Maybe this is a question for one of the dev's, but I figured I'd ask anyway.

[Cleon]

1 minute ago, bababooey said:

Makes sense. One other thing I forgot..  Do you know why none of the presets use the mid block setting? Maybe this is a question for one of the dev's, but I figured I'd ask anyway.

No idea. But I mentioned it to the devs recently.

[bababooey]

Just now, Cleon said:

No idea. But I mentioned it to the devs recently.

Okay, cheers Cleon!

[Skora11]

Great post and while I can understand everything you detail and explain, transferring this knowledge and theory into my own style and formation isn’t quite as easy. I really need to get round tk reading some of the great guides available for tactics, roles and instructions. 

One thing to add, I know you do some fairly minor changes, but over a period of time does the AI cotton on to how you play and major changes ever have to be made? I’ve always noticed formations and styles I’ve used have to be changed quite dramatically as they seem to be less effective over time. 

[HanziZoloman]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb Skora11:

Great post and while I can understand everything you detail and explain, transferring this knowledge and theory into my own style and formation isn’t quite as easy. I really need to get round tk reading some of the great guides available for tactics, roles and instructions. 

One thing to add, I know you do some fairly minor changes, but over a period of time does the AI cotton on to how you play and major changes ever have to be made? I’ve always noticed formations and styles I’ve used have to be changed quite dramatically as they seem to be less effective over time. 

It was the same for me but I solved this issue with some minor tweaks while keeping the main idea intact.

I play a 5221 possession but my players are not fit to play some of the roles or parts of the tactic I also play FM20.

I also do some minor changes before a match adapting my setup to opposition preferences and line up.

 

[Cleon]

11 hours ago, Skora11 said:

Great post and while I can understand everything you detail and explain, transferring this knowledge and theory into my own style and formation isn’t quite as easy. I really need to get round tk reading some of the great guides available for tactics, roles and instructions. 

One thing to add, I know you do some fairly minor changes, but over a period of time does the AI cotton on to how you play and major changes ever have to be made? I’ve always noticed formations and styles I’ve used have to be changed quite dramatically as they seem to be less effective over time. 

The AI will makes changes on a game by game basis to try and beat you. They'll try and do this in game. But they don't ever "figure you out"

[Skora11]

2 hours ago, Cleon said:

The AI will makes changes on a game by game basis to try and beat you. They'll try and do this in game. But they don't ever "figure you out"

Thanks for that, so really if a formation becomes less effective over time it can be one of a few things:

1. A formation you tend to struggle against becoming more prominent in the league.

2. Players you've bought/sold are not as effective for the formation and tactics you are using. 

3. Original formation had some major deficiencies in the first place that you were maybe getting 'away' with at the start.

4. The formation/tactic still being effective but in-game/pre match decisions are poor.

[Cleon]

1 hour ago, Skora11 said:

Thanks for that, so really if a formation becomes less effective over time it can be one of a few things:

1. A formation you tend to struggle against becoming more prominent in the league.

2. Players you've bought/sold are not as effective for the formation and tactics you are using. 

3. Original formation had some major deficiencies in the first place that you were maybe getting 'away' with at the start.

4. The formation/tactic still being effective but in-game/pre match decisions are poor.

Yeah. Especially the first part, tactical trends change overtime. So if the league has slowly phased away from 433 for example and now you're facing more 352's then how you create, score and play will all have changed.

[Flohrinho]

Call me "paranoid" but I think the opposition also studies the pre-match reports and if certain formations have so far done really well against you will look to play that formation if the manager has it in his choice of tactics. At least that is what it feels like, I don't have any hard data on it, but it would also make sense game wise that other teams chose to play against you in a manner that they know will hurt you.

[Cloud9]

On 04/01/2023 at 22:26, Cleon said:

It's mainly pivots and wingers, the positioning they take up. If you use CM's and there is no DM behind they naturally drop deeper. But if you have a DM then they push a lot higher up compared to older versions of the game.

Interesting take on a cool tactic , couple of questions for ya.

• Did you experiment with playing the tactic using the traditional double pivot (two DM's) vs the two CM's you went for?
• How did you feel about the wingback (s) duty in this formation? I've found it difficult to get a 3 at the back difficult to function without them on attack.

[Cleon]

9 minutes ago, Cloud9 said:

Interesting take on a cool tactic , couple of questions for ya.

• Did you experiment with playing the tactic using the traditional double pivot (two DM's) vs the two CM's you went for?
• How did you feel about the wingback (s) duty in this formation? I've found it difficult to get a 3 at the back difficult to function without them on attack.

Guess you missed the latest post in the thread? As I used DM's there 

As for the WB on support, I find them fine. They provide enough support going forward and are strong defensively. If you're struggling to get a back 3 to work without them on attack, this to me suggest you have major issues elsewhere as you have 7 other players who should be able to attack too and provide support.

[Cloud9]

36 minutes ago, Cleon said:

Guess you missed the latest post in the thread? As I used DM's there 

As for the WB on support, I find them fine. They provide enough support going forward and are strong defensively. If you're struggling to get a back 3 to work without them on attack, this to me suggest you have major issues elsewhere as you have 7 other players who should be able to attack too and provide support.

Ha whoops, sorry about that. Didn't see the update  Great work here by the way, thanks for putting in the time on all this.  

I'm playing a very similar formation at the moment, finding a lot of success with matching the Segundo Volante role (support) to that of its wingback next to it (well I'm trying to make the support work, attack for both was working very well but I'd like to get a WB(s) to work). Not sure if any of the following is interesting to you in your tinkering. 

• Halfback is a bit weird for defensive football but It's been serving as a trigger role, dropping back as soon as we win the ball and launching the wcb and wb on its side.
• This paired with the SV creates two distinctive attacks on each side of the pitch, feels much more impactful with them on attack but I'm trying to make it work with them on support.
• Sticking mark tighter on the wcbs creates a cool pressing trap in the inside of the pitch (how I've been trying to deal with that big gap between the DM's and the AM's)

Side note: BPD on the right a product of your suggestion from a previous thread we chatted on getting about getting "play out from the back" to work w/counter attacking football, been super.

• I ask on the DM's vs the CM's as I've been experimenting moving them up against specific formations (4-4-2) for example, where I'd like to take the game to their midfield two a little more. Not sure if it's had enough of an impact yet.

Edited January 27, 2023 by Cloud9

[phnompenhandy]

I'm applying Cleon's original low block tactic almost wholesale in my new save, and showing some tactical insights here:

https://community.sigames.com/forums/topic/572462-l10-head-coach-academy-only-challenge-fm-for-masochists/

[Cleon]

13 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

Ha whoops, sorry about that. Didn't see the update  Great work here by the way, thanks for putting in the time on all this.  

I'm playing a very similar formation at the moment, finding a lot of success with matching the Segundo Volante role (support) to that of its wingback next to it (well I'm trying to make the support work, attack for both was working very well but I'd like to get a WB(s) to work). Not sure if any of the following is interesting to you in your tinkering. 

• Halfback is a bit weird for defensive football but It's been serving as a trigger role, dropping back as soon as we win the ball and launching the wcb and wb on its side.
• This paired with the SV creates two distinctive attacks on each side of the pitch, feels much more impactful with them on attack but I'm trying to make it work with them on support.
• Sticking mark tighter on the wcbs creates a cool pressing trap in the inside of the pitch (how I've been trying to deal with that big gap between the DM's and the AM's)

Side note: BPD on the right a product of your suggestion from a previous thread we chatted on getting about getting "play out from the back" to work w/counter attacking football, been super.

• I ask on the DM's vs the CM's as I've been experimenting moving them up against specific formations (4-4-2) for example, where I'd like to take the game to their midfield two a little more. Not sure if it's had enough of an impact yet.

The HB in this set up (or any back 3 in general) doesn't function how it's supposed to. They don't really help form a back 2/3 and drop between the defence properly. They act more like a DLP in the DM slot. So the behaviour your seeing isn't what the role is supposed to be doing. But if it's working then great. Just be aware it's not functioning properly.

He takes up these kind of positions constantly, which any DM role will do. Palomino is the HB. Whenever the team gets possession he reverts to this type of position constant and never really drops back into the defensive line like he's supposed to and does in a 2 man defence.

When you have a WB on attack on the same side as the SV, how is it more impactful? I'd have thought that your SV will be bypassed more and not involved with the build up as much? Unless it's all balls cut back to him in deeper areas? So I'm interested in hearing your examples of what you think is impactful.

Edited January 27, 2023 by Cleon

[Cloud9]

2 hours ago, Cleon said:

The HB in this set up (or any back 3 in general) doesn't function how it's supposed to. They don't really help form a back 2/3 and drop between the defence properly. They act more like a DLP in the DM slot. So the behaviour your seeing isn't what the role is supposed to be doing. But if it's working then great. Just be aware it's not functioning properly.

He takes up these kind of positions constantly, which any DM role will do. Palomino is the HB. Whenever the team gets possession he reverts to this type of position constant and never really drops back into the defensive line like he's supposed to and does in a 2 man defence.

When you have a WB on attack on the same side as the SV, how is it more impactful? I'd have thought that your SV will be bypassed more and not involved with the build up as much? Unless it's all balls cut back to him in deeper areas? So I'm interested in hearing your examples of what you think is impactful.

HB: I know what you mean, but I've been looking for roles that have a specific impact on play and particularly in this FM the HB is a role that forces the players around him to act. I tested a double HB in a back 3 w/ 2 wcb (s) and 2 wb (a) and it launched the wide players into attack whenever we won possession. That feels over the top, but if you're trying to get your team to enact "automatisms" or specific passages of plays, it's a great tool regardless of a cb's behind him. 

SV Partnership: A SV with a Winger or Wingback with matching mentality (both on s or a) is a superb role partnership in my experience. They'll bring the ball forward together. Having them both on attack duties works especially well in my testing. Role pairings where you're telling the players exactly what to do when you've won the ball feel more impactful (particularly with weaker players who won't always make the best decisions on their own).

An additional note: The BPD (d) behind the partnership is holding position which helps to tell them that they can go forward. The BPD is another role I've been really liking this FM. Not only can he pick a pass from the back but he runs with the ball more, a wicked combination with the players bombing forward in tandem in front of him.

[Cleon]

8 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

HB: I know what you mean, but I've been looking for roles that have a specific impact on play and particularly in this FM the HB is a role that forces the players around him to act. I tested a double HB in a back 3 w/ 2 wcb (s) and 2 wb (a) and it launched the wide players into attack whenever we won possession. That feels over the top, but if you're trying to get your team to enact "automatisms" or specific passages of plays, it's a great tool regardless of a cb's behind him. 

SV Partnership: A SV with a Winger or Wingback with matching mentality (both on s or a) is a superb role partnership in my experience. They'll bring the ball forward together. Having them both on attack duties works especially well in my testing. Role pairings where you're telling the players exactly what to do when you've won the ball feel more impactful (particularly with weaker players who won't always make the best decisions on their own).

An additional note: The BPD (d) behind the partnership is holding position which helps to tell them that they can go forward. The BPD is another role I've been really liking this FM. Not only can he pick a pass from the back but he runs with the ball more, a wicked combination with the players bombing forward in tandem in front of him.

The HB, my point was the behaviour you are seeing isn't natural and part of the role. Any DM role, especially a DLP etc will play the exact same way as the current behaviour you see. If it's working though for you that's great. I was only pointing out it isn't functioning properly as the role should, even though it's working for you. It's important I point that out incase anyone else is reading. As they might think it's a natural part of the role and expect to see the same behaviours but unless they use a back 3, they wont.

As for the SV and what you say, all of this happens on support too. When you said you think it's more impactful, I was thinking there would have been more to it and you were seeing something specific that doesn't happen on support duty. But from what you've just described, it sounds the exact same. Both mentalities they do the same things and still bring the ball out together. I have hundreds of analysis that show this and some of them are included in the next analysis part.

I've been a massive fan of the BPD changes this year. They're great for progressive passes and opening up space for the players further afield.

Edited January 28, 2023 by Cleon

[Cloud9]

1 hour ago, Cleon said:

The HB, my point was the behaviour you are seeing isn't natural and part of the role. Any DM role, especially a DLP etc will play the exact same way as the current behaviour you see. If it's working though for you that's great. I was only pointing out it isn't functioning properly as the role should, even though it's working for you. It's important I point that out incase anyone else is reading. As they might think it's a natural part of the role and expect to see the same behaviours but unless they use a back 3, they wont.

As for the SV and what you say, all of this happens on support too. When you said you think it's more impactful, I was thinking there would have been more to it and you were seeing something specific that doesn't happen on support duty. But from what you've just described, it sounds the exact same. Both mentalities they do the same things and still bring the ball out together. I have hundreds of analysis that show this and some of them are included in the next analysis part.

I've been a massive fan of the BPD changes this year. They're great for progressive passes and opening up space for the players further afield.

On the SV, the important bit is that the mentality's are paired to both support, or both attack. That way theres no bypass between the players like you asked about in the earlier post. Impactful as in, I've found the roles work better together when paired on attack rather than on support (I think that's because there is so much space in front of them to attack), but no they don't play remarkably different in comparison to any other role you could switch from support to attack. On attack I also know what I'm getting most of the time from the pair, where as support duties often end up feeling more like "space eating" players (at least in my experience).

For anyone else reading I think that's a specific partnership that's great to try out if you're building a tactic. The synergy makes them like two best friends, a cool synergy which I've found rare in role partners.

 

Edited January 28, 2023 by Cloud9

[Cloud9]

1 hour ago, Cleon said:

The HB, my point was the behaviour you are seeing isn't natural and part of the role. Any DM role, especially a DLP etc will play the exact same way as the current behaviour you see. If it's working though for you that's great. I was only pointing out it isn't functioning properly as the role should, even though it's working for you. It's important I point that out incase anyone else is reading. As they might think it's a natural part of the role and expect to see the same behaviours but unless they use a back 3, they wont.

As for the SV and what you say, all of this happens on support too. When you said you think it's more impactful, I was thinking there would have been more to it and you were seeing something specific that doesn't happen on support duty. But from what you've just described, it sounds the exact same. Both mentalities they do the same things and still bring the ball out together. I have hundreds of analysis that show this and some of them are included in the next analysis part.

I've been a massive fan of the BPD changes this year. They're great for progressive passes and opening up space for the players further afield.

Btw, Sheffield Wednesday look like they might be back up to the Championship this year  maybe a Steel City Derby incoming soon ^^ (if you guys don't make it back to the top flight).

[HanziZoloman]

@all nice stuff being on discussion here.

I have a pretty forward version of the 5221 with an CMd and APa combination in the centre, two AMa/s behind the PFa. Other teams are sitting really deep and soaking pressure against my possession style of play. I concede almost no goal, like ten games without conceding but struggle a little to score as well, winning and drawing mostly. Any ideas here? I have good chances but it’s 3rd division, my striker isn’t the best finisher.

[phnompenhandy]

23 minutes ago, HanziZoloman said:

@all nice stuff being on discussion here.

I have a pretty forward version of the 5221 with an CMd and APa combination in the centre, two AMa/s behind the PFa. Other teams are sitting really deep and soaking pressure against my possession style of play. I concede almost no goal, like ten games without conceding but struggle a little to score as well, winning and drawing mostly. Any ideas here? I have good chances but it’s 3rd division, my striker isn’t the best finisher.

I'm using Cleon's ideas here with minor tweaks to roles and duties to try to get the most out of my players. Whatever I do, the general effect is to keep it tight at the back and struggle to score goals. What unlocked it for me in my current season is finding a sole striker who works as a poacher. It kind of undermines the whole system, but it's working for me although I'm concerned that he's scoring ALL our goals and will probably move on in the summer.

[Cleon]

30 minutes ago, HanziZoloman said:

@all nice stuff being on discussion here.

I have a pretty forward version of the 5221 with an CMd and APa combination in the centre, two AMa/s behind the PFa. Other teams are sitting really deep and soaking pressure against my possession style of play. I concede almost no goal, like ten games without conceding but struggle a little to score as well, winning and drawing mostly. Any ideas here? I have good chances but it’s 3rd division, my striker isn’t the best finisher.

Have you read the analysis sections? I spoke about this exact issue in great length and spoke about changes that needed to happen when this occurs.

[HanziZoloman]

vor 7 Stunden schrieb Cleon:

Have you read the analysis sections? I spoke about this exact issue in great length and spoke about changes that needed to happen when this occurs.

I read a lot of analysis but not all. I’m going through it again, thanks!

@phnompenhandy thanks as well I had been thinking about a poacher too but it felt too embarrassing 

[phnompenhandy]

11 minutes ago, HanziZoloman said:

I read a lot of analysis but not all. I’m going through it again, thanks!

@phnompenhandy thanks as well I had been thinking about a poacher too but it felt too embarrassing 

I know what you mean - it was a last resort after experimenting with cooler pressing forwards, attacking forwards and false nines! He's scored about 80% of our goals this season and is single-handedly saving my job!

[chipspice1974]

Brilliant thread cleon, very informative.

can I ask what skin is that please?

[Cleon]

2 minutes ago, chipspice1974 said:

Brilliant thread cleon, very informative.

can I ask what skin is that please?

It's linked in the articles you've read  

But it's this one

 

[HanziZoloman]

vor einer Stunde schrieb phnompenhandy:

I know what you mean - it was a last resort after experimenting with cooler pressing forwards, attacking forwards and false nines! He's scored about 80% of our goals this season and is single-handedly saving my job!

And after „the analysis“ by @cleon you describe my second issue, the fact that my players are not capable playing this style but in your save they surprisingly can.

I play with a BPD in FM20 but how may I create the WCB or are my players capable to play it? I have one skilful BPD but the rest of the pack are just defenders. How did you address the play from back part of the tactic?

the last issue, the goal part of the game, is a little like @Cleon describes it in his analysis a lot of possession and some minor chances created. In the final third it’s getting tough for us and the opponents are well organised. Here cleons team plays the ball back and forth while we are just choking the opponents.

 

Edited January 28, 2023 by HanziZoloman

[phnompenhandy]

1 minute ago, HanziZoloman said:

And after „the analysis“ by @cleon you describe my second issue, the fact that my players are not capable playing this style but in your save they surprisingly can.

I play with a BPD in FM20 but how may I create the WCB or are my players capable to play it? I have one Skills BPD bit the rest of the pack are just defenders. How did you address the play from back part of the tactic?

Cleon started with 'the worst club in the world'. I've started as 'the worst manager in the world', unemployed, and took a job with the only club that would hire me. The squad was so bad that they were equally inept in any tactic, and playing without seeing attributes, I couldn't know what tactic was better or worse anyway. That's how I got over that mental block of thinking 'my players can't'. It kept me off Cleon's ideas for two short-term saves before taking the plunge. If you've got the time, it's all spelt out in MY thread! L10 Head Coach Academy-Only Challenge: FM for Masochists

[Cleon]

You say you don't have the players capable of playing this way but why can't they? I'm attributeless, do you think I had players to play this way? I've played this way since the 6th tier and have no idea how good/bad my players are. They were awful though as I was the worst club on the entire game.

I feel people have a mental block where they automatically players can't play a specific way or do certain things because they might be poor. People already have preconceptions of what can and can't work without even trying and see how it reacts. Sure, you might not hit the ground running and might have to make compromises along the way. But as I showed in the deep dive of the tactic article, I flipped the entire style on its head using the same roles and the exact same players. I was in the  6th and 5th tier when I wrote it. My players aren't well rounded and able to play all styles of football but we made it work.

If you're on FM20 though, you can't replicate a WCB.

Edited January 28, 2023 by Cleon

[HanziZoloman]

Am 28.1.2023 um 17:46 schrieb Cleon:

You say you don't have the players capable of playing this way but why can't they? I'm attributeless, do you think I had players to play this way? I've played this way since the 6th tier and have no idea how good/bad my players are. They were awful though as I was the worst club on the entire game.

Very impressive @Cleon 

i started a new save on FM23 (finally) and I just the exact tactic with minor tweaks in German 3rd division with 1869 Munich and they are playing like gods! especially the WCB is gold (he’s not capable to play the role btw), he is an old veteran CB with a lot of  composure, very slow, he can’t cross the ball, his passing is solid but he‘s top top playing and even scored a goal out of play.

Great stuff!!!

Edited February 1, 2023 by HanziZoloman

[HanziZoloman]

@Cleon I am actually reading the part where you were talking to yourself. I have two baby kids and not much time to answer but I enjoy every part of this here because it is extremely helpful. Especially for me, I don’t have much time to figure out stuff for myself and guys like you, @Rashidi and of course @crusadertsar are my heroes in FM terms. You help me enjoy this fantastic game while maintaining a family and a job 😀🍻

the next Guiness is on you guys. Give me your email and I PayPal you the equivalent in coins 

[HanziZoloman]

And I also have a question @Cleon how do you decide which youth prospects to promote as you are blind to any attributes?

[Cleon]

14 hours ago, HanziZoloman said:

And I also have a question @Cleon how do you decide which youth prospects to promote as you are blind to any attributes?

By watching them in the under squads and using the training emails to see who is training well enough. Then I give the best performing ones all a chance in the first team and take it from there.

[HanziZoloman]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb Cleon:

By watching them in the under squads and using the training emails to see who is training well enough. Then I give the best performing ones all a chance in the first team and take it from there.

That’s encouraging, I try to put a blind spot on attributes and take more in account what’s happening.

signs that a player should be given a chance are obviously:

- performance in matches and training

- reaction on critical feedback or bad matches

- positive notifications by the youth trainers

- stats?

anything else (?)

[phnompenhandy]

2 hours ago, HanziZoloman said:

anything else (?)

Yeah, personality. If the kid has a negative personality, it suggests he personally won't develop much, and he might infect the squad with negativity. I like a squad full of professional, determined sorts.

[Cleon]

4 hours ago, HanziZoloman said:

That’s encouraging, I try to put a blind spot on attributes and take more in account what’s happening.

signs that a player should be given a chance are obviously:

- performance in matches and training

- reaction on critical feedback or bad matches

- positive notifications by the youth trainers

- stats?

anything else (?)

Negative personality isn't always that bad and doesn't mean he won't progress, it depends what the personality is. So take a bit of caution to what Andy says above. 

[HanziZoloman]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb Cleon:

Negative personality isn't always that bad and doesn't mean he won't progress, it depends what the personality is. So take a bit of caution to what Andy says above. 

I thought the same but what do you mean what are your experiences with those „negative“ personalities?

[phnompenhandy]

3 hours ago, HanziZoloman said:

I thought the same but what do you mean what are your experiences with those „negative“ personalities?

Taking Cleon's caveat above into account, note that Determination, Ambition and Professionalism are key attributes in player development. So if he's described an unambitious or unprofessional, for me it's a red flag (low determination you can see if you have attributes visible but the coach will tell you anyway). Players that are controversial, temperamental or whatever and quite influential can influence others (in their 'social group'? - I never check that) to support them in undermining you if they want first team action without deserving it - stuff like that. If they're good enough to play in the first team anyway and aren't 'bad apples' then I can ignore them but see them as not long-term options if they're not going to develop.

[Cleon]

4 hours ago, phnompenhandy said:

Taking Cleon's caveat above into account, note that Determination, Ambition and Professionalism are key attributes in player development. So if he's described an unambitious or unprofessional, for me it's a red flag (low determination you can see if you have attributes visible but the coach will tell you anyway). Players that are controversial, temperamental or whatever and quite influential can influence others (in their 'social group'? - I never check that) to support them in undermining you if they want first team action without deserving it - stuff like that. If they're good enough to play in the first team anyway and aren't 'bad apples' then I can ignore them but see them as not long-term options if they're not going to develop.

The thing is with an unprofessional player or unambitious player you can change the personality type really quickly with mentoring units. Also we were talking about youth players here, so none of them will have high enough influence to impact the rest of the squad. The established players in the squad should already have the most influence on the squad. A youth player is likely to never have any influence that will impact the first team for a few years. Which by that time you should have already altered the personality.

As I'm attributeless I never think "oh this lad isn't good enough he can never play". I just think, this lad needs more work and nurturing. So make sure I put him in a good mentoring group with people who can influence him. The groups tell you how much influence someone has over the group when you create a mentoring unit. Then I keep checking every 6 weeks to make sure it's having the desired impact I want.

Edited February 5, 2023 by Cleon

[phnompenhandy]

5 minutes ago, Cleon said:

The thing is with an unprofessional player or unambitious player you can change the personality type really quickly with mentoring units. Also we were talking about youth players here, so none of them will have high enough influence to impact the rest of the squad. The established players in the squad should already have the most influence on the squad. A youth player is likely to never have any influence that will impact the first team for a few years. Which by that time you should have already altered the personality.

As I'm attributeless I never think "oh this lad isn't good enough he can never play". I just think, this lad needs more work and nurturing. So make sure I put him in a good mentoring group with people who can influence him. The groups tell you how much influence someone has over the group when you create a mentoring unit. Then I keep checking every 6 weeks to make sure it's having the desired impact I want.

Good points. Clearly, I should have emphasised I play as an Academy-Only manager where within a couple of years, I ONLY have teenagers and so no one old enough to mentor (at my latest club, the DoF didn't renew the contract of anyone over 19 at the end of the first season). Another reason why that challenge is extra-hard.

[Cleon]

I only had teenagers for the first few years and didn't really buy anyone until the 4th season. Yet I could still mentor the weaker players. Age doesn't matter and isn't a restriction. All that matters is influence over the mentoring unit, someone has.

Mentoring

Mentoring replaces tutoring as we knew it on older versions of the game. It’s similar in terms of what it does overall but also very different with how it works. Many of us all knew that while personality was only supposed to be part of the overall equation for a player reaching his potential, once you had a good personality type it was easy to get the player to his maximum potential. Normally this could be done by just playing regular. Whether you admit it or not, it wasn’t a realistic way and was almost an exploitative way of playing the game. It used to be the first thing I did on all saves, give players the best personality type I could find and then with-in a few short years they’d be at full potential.

It all felt too easy as we were beating the system and we’d have many players with awesome attributes for their age. While we should have players with good attributes at younger ages, it shouldn’t be as frequent as it was. So mentoring is what we have now and presents a more realistic approach while more closely follows how it works in real life. Many of you had wanted these changes for many years and now we have them.

We have to forget about how it might work under the hood as SI have moved it into a direction where we should think about it in a more realistic way. Which is fair enough and the correct approach to take. With this in mind, it’s highly unlikely we will ever know the proper calculations used any longer so don’t expect to see any specific numbers thrown around. And if you do see anything talking about percentages or exact inner workings, know that it’ll be false. Only SI know this stuff now.

So How Does It Work?

While the old tutoring system was more focused on a fixed set of rules, the new mentoring options are more organic and realistic. This is reflected in game with suggestions via hints and tips. The game gives you much better feedback as to what affects personality adjustments and displays it to the user in a clear manner.

Players need to be training together to mentor one another, as well as spending time together off the training pitch. This means the players need to be in the same squad. You can no longer have a first team player, mentor a U18 player unless they are in the same squad. So you’d either have to demote the senior player or promote the younger player in order to create a unit they both can participate in.

When trying to influence the players the game looks at the following things;

• Age of the potential influenced player
• Career first team appearances of the potential influenced player
• Difference in the club hierarchy between the two players
• Social group standing between the two players (i.e how compatible they are)

There isn't a specific age limit on mentoring. Age works in the same way as the other factors, they will impact how likely the player is to be influenced at that time.

If a player fills the criteria above, the more likely the influenced player is to have their personality skewed towards that of the mentoring player. If the player who is being mentored doesn’t fulfill any of the criteria at all, then there's no chance of a personality adjustment occurring. If there is a chance of a personality adjustment occurring then this chance is further boosted if they're in the same mentoring group and training unit. 

Players can still be influenced by the team personality and by the personality of others in their social groups, just like on Football Manager 2018. You should take a look at the social groups and see which players are in the groups as you could find them being influenced positively or negatively by different personalities. It's unlikely your captain is going to be dragged down by other players at the club, but it's not impossible if the combination of scoring factors suggested the captain should be influenced by others.

Also new in Football Manager 2019 is the 'Welcome to club' function also now serves as a way of setting a piece of short-term one-on-one mentoring between a new signing and an established player. 

Players can still pass player traits (PPM’s) on as well, if the individual shares a similar position to those in the mentoring unit.

Mentoring is slower than the previous tutoring system. You should not expect to see an unprofessional player become professional overnight, or even over the course of a few short months.

[HanziZoloman]

That’s a great answer and means I have to put some work into it.

you said more experienced players dragged down into youth squad or vice versa. How do you mentor your youth players? Do you promote them to be mentored or do you build mentoring units in youth squads?

thanks @Cleon

[HanziZoloman]

vor einer Stunde schrieb phnompenhandy:

Good points. Clearly, I should have emphasised I play as an Academy-Only manager where within a couple of years, I ONLY have teenagers and so no one old enough to mentor (at my latest club, the DoF didn't renew the contract of anyone over 19 at the end of the first season). Another reason why that challenge is extra-hard.

I am following your story occasionally! Great work 

[Cleon]

16 minutes ago, HanziZoloman said:

That’s a great answer and means I have to put some work into it.

you said more experienced players dragged down into youth squad or vice versa. How do you mentor your youth players? Do you promote them to be mentored or do you build mentoring units in youth squads?

thanks @Cleon

The youth who will play for the first team get promoted. But if they aren't going to get much time I keep them in the reserves or unders and usually have a few older players there who can mentor them there too. That way they get the proper training they need and aren't doing senior schedules which will run differently due to the game days.

[phnompenhandy]

Super-informative post there, Cleon. I must admit, I've never paid much attention to mentoring, so I need to get on top of that.

A couple of questions immediately spring to mind -

1. If you let your assman ascribe mentoring groups, do they do a decent job or is it imperative you take over yourself? I do notice how the assman undermines himself by putting players into groups then every staff meeting telling me players need re-assigning!

2. That welcome message - there are a variety of welcomes you can ask the player to perform, along with bodily gestures - are there salient differences? Is there, for example, one response if fans rate the incoming player A+ and a different welcome recommended if fans rate him E?

[Cleon]

44 minutes ago, phnompenhandy said:

Super-informative post there, Cleon. I must admit, I've never paid much attention to mentoring, so I need to get on top of that.

A couple of questions immediately spring to mind -

1. If you let your assman ascribe mentoring groups, do they do a decent job or is it imperative you take over yourself? I do notice how the assman undermines himself by putting players into groups then every staff meeting telling me players need re-assigning!

2. That welcome message - there are a variety of welcomes you can ask the player to perform, along with bodily gestures - are there salient differences? Is there, for example, one response if fans rate the incoming player A+ and a different welcome recommended if fans rate him E?

1 - The assistant does an okay job but he can also put strange personality types together. So could have a balanced personality who is highly influential with someone who is resolute for example, who will benefit most from the group. So it's best to do it yourself for full control imo.

2 - Not really no, they all basically do the same thing. They only have a minor impact.

Edited February 5, 2023 by Cleon

[mikcheck]

@Cleon I'm really liking this thread, mainly the striker part and it's amazing how your striker Reginaldo did score 107(!) goals in 60 apps.

Sorry if you've mentioned it already but I have a few questions if you don't mind:

1- Do you take control of individual training and let the assistant do the general one? 

2 - Regarding mentoring, do you keep the mentoring groups within the same training units? For example a mentoring group with only defensive units players and other one with just attacking units? Or you don't care about it and you mix both?

3 - As I'm still playing my long term save in FM21, what is the closest to a progressive pass I can search for? Key pass maybe?

Thanks.

[Cleon]

26 minutes ago, mikcheck said:

@Cleon I'm really liking this thread, mainly the striker part and it's amazing how your striker Reginaldo did score 107(!) goals in 60 apps.

Sorry if you've mentioned it already but I have a few questions if you don't mind:

1- Do you take control of individual training and let the assistant do the general one? 

2 - Regarding mentoring, do you keep the mentoring groups within the same training units? For example a mentoring group with only defensive units players and other one with just attacking units? Or you don't care about it and you mix both?

3 - As I'm still playing my long term save in FM21, what is the closest to a progressive pass I can search for? Key pass maybe?

Thanks.

1 - It really depends. I like to have full control usually though so take both. However there is nothing wrong with doing it how you suggest.

2 - I mix it up. The important thing is the person mentoring has influence over the unit he's in. And the players you want to mentor are going to learn. The units themselves tell you the influence and who gains the most. That's the most vital part imo.

3 - Hmm that's tricky. I don't think you can track anything close to it, as it's not an easy to track measurement. A progressive pass is a type of pass that moves the ball towards the opposing team's goal and advances the attacking team's position on the field. Progressive passes are often made by aggressive defenders,  midfielders and forwards and are characterized by their length, accuracy, and direction. Progressive passes can be made with both feet and with different parts of the foot, such as the inside or outside of the foot, and can be made in various ways, such as a through-ball, a ground pass, or an aerial pass

[BnadnerB]

Hi @Cleon do you adjust any of the attacking/defending corners, free-kicks or throw-in routines?

 

I’m sure I’ve seen you say you don’t, but do you literally stick to default settings or do you reorganise the defaults?

[Cleon]

Just now, BnadnerB said:

Hi @Cleon do you adjust any of the attacking/defending corners, free-kicks or throw-in routines?

 

I’m sure I’ve seen you say you don’t, but do you literally stick to default settings or do you reorganise the defaults?

I never touch or alter set pieces. They're just the defaults.

[Hovis Dexter]

I find it very interesting that some very knowledgeable contributors play aspects of the game very differently. I'm thinking about @Cleon not using OIs and using the default set pieces whereas, on the other hand, @Rashidi makes use of OIs and creates his own set pieces. I guess it just goes to show that there many different ways of being successful at FM.