Lower league youth player development in fm23

[Mysharry]

I've been craving this game again and trying to decide wether or not to buy fm23, but i have some reservations as i was very disappointed with fm22 due to the complete absence of player development in lower league youth teams. I usually only do youth challenges, and therefore a big part of the game for me is being able to develop my own players from age 15-18 until they are ready for the first team. In fm22 i found this to be basically impossible and even though i soldiered on for 4-5 seasons i never saw more than maybe 1-2 points gained in total across 60ish players.

 

To clarify, im fully aware first team experience is vital for player development, thats not what this is about. im talking about the stage before that, where player development of course also should occur.

 

i've read some patch notes and see there have been some attempts to fix this but no clear conclusion wether or not this has worked based on reading other threads, so my question is; is FM23 any better in this regard?

 

Would be very grateful for your input!

[Neil Brock]

In older versions (so pre-FM22) the player development rate was a little bit too quick, which meant sometimes you'd have high quality prospects reaching their peak by say 21. For that reason we've made changes to make it more true to real life and takes more time. 

Realistically for lower league players being ready for the first team by the age of 18 is relatively rare if it's just players through your own academy - it's normally a balance between players discarded by clubs higher up the ladder and the odd prospect that makes it through. 

Speaking from my own personal experience, I've seen players develop by more than 1-2 attributes over the space of a few seasons in FM23. Between the age of 16-20 I've had a DM increase his Acceleration, Agility, Stamina and First Touch by 5, Concentration by 7 and Strength by 8. In total having 22 attributes which have increased by 2 or more. So yes, players can be developed. 

[Mysharry]

3 hours ago, Neil Brock said:

In older versions (so pre-FM22) the player development rate was a little bit too quick, which meant sometimes you'd have high quality prospects reaching their peak by say 21. For that reason we've made changes to make it more true to real life and takes more time. 

Realistically for lower league players being ready for the first team by the age of 18 is relatively rare if it's just players through your own academy - it's normally a balance between players discarded by clubs higher up the ladder and the odd prospect that makes it through. 

Speaking from my own personal experience, I've seen players develop by more than 1-2 attributes over the space of a few seasons in FM23. Between the age of 16-20 I've had a DM increase his Acceleration, Agility, Stamina and First Touch by 5, Concentration by 7 and Strength by 8. In total having 22 attributes which have increased by 2 or more. So yes, players can be developed. 

Thanks for the response! 

 

I do agree that player development in the past may have been too certain and predictable, and neither do i expect my regens to be first team ready at 18. I have also had players progress at lower levels in fm22 but, never without first team matches. my main issue has been that teenagers who arent yet getting first team matches wasn't developing at all (apart from jumping reach due to physical growth), which isnt really realistic.

Real life players at youth teams low down in the divisions do improve between 15-18 playing just youth leagues, despite poor facilities and coaching. My theory was just that the tweak compared to pre-22 progression was too harsh on the lower levels that training alone basically had no effect.

 

I did buy the game now to see for myself (cause who am i kidding right ), but just out of curiosity, how much did your DM play in the first team those seasons and what division were you in?

 

[Neil Brock]

49 minutes ago, Mysharry said:

Thanks for the response! 

 

I do agree that player development in the past may have been too certain and predictable, and neither do i expect my regens to be first team ready at 18. I have also had players progress at lower levels in fm22 but, never without first team matches. my main issue has been that teenagers who arent yet getting first team matches wasn't developing at all (apart from jumping reach due to physical growth), which isnt really realistic.

Real life players at youth teams low down in the divisions do improve between 15-18 playing just youth leagues, despite poor facilities and coaching. My theory was just that the tweak compared to pre-22 progression was too harsh on the lower levels that training alone basically had no effect.

 

I did buy the game now to see for myself (cause who am i kidding right ), but just out of curiosity, how much did your DM play in the first team those seasons and what division were you in?

 

I've been playing in the Turkish leagues - I've had a lot of players develop a decent amount just playing U19 football. I tend not to loan them out until they get too old for the U19s as that way they're fully classified as HG and HGC which is much more important in the Turkish rule setup. When they're consistently in the 7.5+ average ratings at that level, they can be given first team opportunities. What I'll do is look to promote them to the first team, but still make them available for the youth team - that way they're training with the first team schedule/coaches etc. 

That DM was involved in 1 first team game at age 16, 0 at 17 (had an awful loan spell at a lower league team where he played 5 games and I recalled him early), 13 at 18; 19 at 19; 32 at 20; 32 at 21; 31 at 22.

Had another develop well who played 0 at 16 and 17; 13 at 18; 29 at 19 and 25 at 20. 

In some nations you have the U23s which give you an added option when they've developed beyond a useful level at U18, but the principle is the same. Also something to add, I am being more hands-on with training than I've been in previous versions. The AI does an 'okay' job, but for bigger rewards you need to be at least doing some aspect of schedule building and individual training. 

Good luck!  

[MarkFB]

I started as St Albans City in the National League South. I’ve seen a number of players through my youth intakes develop between 2 and 6 points in a number of attributes. Being able to check all time progress of their attributes makes it easy to check.  The players that I’ve played in the first team do develop a bit faster but even the ones in U18 and U21 squads make progress and that’s with my youth facilities having been stuck on adequate for a few seasons.

 

[FreddyGuarin]

On 30/12/2022 at 15:30, Neil Brock said:

In older versions (so pre-FM22) the player development rate was a little bit too quick, which meant sometimes you'd have high quality prospects reaching their peak by say 21. For that reason we've made changes to make it more true to real life and takes more time. 

Realistically for lower league players being ready for the first team by the age of 18 is relatively rare if it's just players through your own academy - it's normally a balance between players discarded by clubs higher up the ladder and the odd prospect that makes it through. 

Speaking from my own personal experience, I've seen players develop by more than 1-2 attributes over the space of a few seasons in FM23. Between the age of 16-20 I've had a DM increase his Acceleration, Agility, Stamina and First Touch by 5, Concentration by 7 and Strength by 8. In total having 22 attributes which have increased by 2 or more. So yes, players can be developed. 

I've got this lad who has just come through in my first intake, and he's already good enough for the National League. The problem is, even though he has only existed in the game for eight months, there has been no significant development whatsoever despite the fact he has been playing regular first team football at the age of 16. In fact, his technical attributes seem to have got worse.

I know I'm probably being impatient, and the average training facilities, 2*, 2.5* and 3* coaching, and semi-professional status won't help things, but is there any advice on how I could actually develop this kid? I really don't want him to go to waste, because he is one of those youngsters that is freakishly good for the level of football he's playing at.

[Mcfc1894]

On 30/12/2022 at 15:30, Neil Brock said:

In older versions (so pre-FM22) the player development rate was a little bit too quick, which meant sometimes you'd have high quality prospects reaching their peak by say 21. For that reason we've made changes to make it more true to real life and takes more time. 

Realistically for lower league players being ready for the first team by the age of 18 is relatively rare if it's just players through your own academy - it's normally a balance between players discarded by clubs higher up the ladder and the odd prospect that makes it through. 

Speaking from my own personal experience, I've seen players develop by more than 1-2 attributes over the space of a few seasons in FM23. Between the age of 16-20 I've had a DM increase his Acceleration, Agility, Stamina and First Touch by 5, Concentration by 7 and Strength by 8. In total having 22 attributes which have increased by 2 or more. So yes, players can be developed. 

I wouldn't say changes to player development has made it more realistic to real life look at arsenal the average age in real life squad is now 24 years old and they have a few under 23 s playing in Saka, saliba, Martinelli, in long term saves now in FM they don't younger players under the age of 25 regularly at all like less than 10 starts in a whole season the player development have made the balance even worse not better just now its the opposite squads too bloated with older players and young player finding it insanely difficult to get regular football until they are 25/26  

[FreddyGuarin]

25 minutes ago, Mcfc1894 said:

I wouldn't say changes to player development has made it more realistic to real life look at arsenal the average age in real life squad is now 24 years old and they have a few under 23 s playing in Saka, saliba, Martinelli, in long term saves now in FM they don't younger players under the age of 25 regularly at all like less than 10 starts in a whole season the player development have made the balance even worse not better just now its the opposite squads too bloated with older players and young player finding it insanely difficult to get regular football until they are 25/26  

Personally, I think it just needs more variety.

For example, you never get the Dele Alli or Mario Balotelli types who peak in their early 20s and drop off a cliff by their late 20s, and you never get the Vardy/Lambert/Holt types who are non-league in their early 20s, EFL in their mid 20s before reaching a decent Premier League level in their late 20s. Obviously these are very rare, but even if you get 1-2% falling into either category, then some less extreme examples who peak early/late, it would make for a more realistic and interesting approach to youth development instead of everything being so black and white.

[phnompenhandy]

4 minutes ago, FreddyGuarin said:

For example, you never get the Dele Alli or Mario Balotelli types who peak in their early 20s and drop off a cliff by their late 20s,

You absolutely do. I just got a newgen in my academy with superb CA. His PA is like 4 points higher.

[Neil Brock]

34 minutes ago, Mcfc1894 said:

I wouldn't say changes to player development has made it more realistic to real life look at arsenal the average age in real life squad is now 24 years old and they have a few under 23 s playing in Saka, saliba, Martinelli, in long term saves now in FM they don't younger players under the age of 25 regularly at all like less than 10 starts in a whole season the player development have made the balance even worse not better just now its the opposite squads too bloated with older players and young player finding it insanely difficult to get regular football until they are 25/26  

Yeah appreciative there needs some balancing and some older high reputation players may not be dropping off quickly enough, leaving those gaps for younger players to be given opportunities. To be fair in previous versions of FM we've had people flag to us that older players drop off too quickly so indicates how it's a tricky thing to balance. Something we're always looking at and appreciate people who have raised examples and feedback via these forums. 

[FreddyGuarin]

4 minutes ago, phnompenhandy said:

You absolutely do. I just got a newgen in my academy with superb CA. His PA is like 4 points higher.

That's not what I'm getting at. That sounds like a talented 16-year-old who will never develop (assuming I understood correctly), whereas I'm on about players who are reach their PA early and then start declining in their mid 20s, which happens in real life but never in FM.

Like I said before, just a wider variety of different player peaks rather than what seems like a 'one size fits all' approach would be more realistic.

[Neil Brock]

41 minutes ago, FreddyGuarin said:

That's not what I'm getting at. That sounds like a talented 16-year-old who will never develop (assuming I understood correctly), whereas I'm on about players who are reach their PA early and then start declining in their mid 20s, which happens in real life but never in FM.

Like I said before, just a wider variety of different player peaks rather than what seems like a 'one size fits all' approach would be more realistic.

The thing is, often these players IRL still have the ability, it's just their performance level drops off. This can happen within the match engine for players with low professionalism, consistency and other hidden attributes.

Bit of a disconnect from FM players/managers between players having high CA/PA etc and ignoring how these players perform within the match engine. 

In real life players are judged by how they perform week in and week out, not by how good people think they are on 'ability' alone.  

[FreddyGuarin]

3 hours ago, Neil Brock said:

The thing is, often these players IRL still have the ability, it's just their performance level drops off. This can happen within the match engine for players with low professionalism, consistency and other hidden attributes.

Bit of a disconnect from FM players/managers between players having high CA/PA etc and ignoring how these players perform within the match engine. 

In real life players are judged by how they perform week in and week out, not by how good people think they are on 'ability' alone.  

I get what you're saying, and obviously you know far more than me about how this works, but let me rephrase it: in 18 years of playing FM, I've never seen a player whose performance levels tail off completely from their early/mid 20s. In real life, you've got Mario Balotelli, Dele Alli, Micah Richards, Ross Barkley, Jack Wilshere, David Bentley and many others at EFL level who drop off, whether it be through lack of application, injuries, bad luck or other external factors. I've never seen it in FM.

Edited January 1, 2023 by FreddyGuarin

[Mysharry]

8 hours ago, FreddyGuarin said:

I've got this lad who has just come through in my first intake, and he's already good enough for the National League. The problem is, even though he has only existed in the game for eight months, there has been no significant development whatsoever despite the fact he has been playing regular first team football at the age of 16. In fact, his technical attributes seem to have got worse.

I know I'm probably being impatient, and the average training facilities, 2*, 2.5* and 3* coaching, and semi-professional status won't help things, but is there any advice on how I could actually develop this kid? I really don't want him to go to waste, because he is one of those youngsters that is freakishly good for the level of football he's playing at.

This is what i've experienced alot of the time with players, but with players at lower CA. When it comes to players with high CA for their level i kinda think it makes more sense that they wont really develop alot, but when players are at a low CA for the level they are playing at (and training at), i think progress should be a bit faster.

For example, a 20/70 CA/PA player should be able to progress at lower league level of facilities/coaches pretty regularly but maybe a 60/80 CA/PA player would need a higher level of environment to progress further.

Atleast rougly, i dont know if the numbers make sense but you guys get the point i think.

[Overmars]

In my opinion, if desiring a long save of 10-ish seasons or more where you develop teenagers into very good players then managing a bigger club is the way to go. At lower league clubs, you can get a bit of development, but you'll quickly come up against a glass ceiling and need better facilities, coaching, and competition to make progress. It's more frustrating than fun, especially when the bigger clubs spam insultingly low offers for your players and you realize you did all of that training and nurturing to get 4.3k of transfer fees. And then when you do sell your players to bigger clubs, they avoid playing them at all costs and your promising youngster fizzles out into nothing.

[phnompenhandy]

4 minutes ago, Overmars said:

In my opinion, if desiring a long save of 10-ish seasons or more where you develop teenagers into very good players then managing a bigger club is the way to go. At lower league clubs, you can get a bit of development, but you'll quickly come up against a glass ceiling and need better facilities, coaching, and competition to make progress. It's more frustrating than fun, especially when the bigger clubs spam insultingly low offers for your players and you realize you did all of that training and nurturing to get 4.3k of transfer fees. And then when you do sell your players to bigger clubs, they avoid playing them at all costs and your promising youngster fizzles out into nothing.

I hear you, but I'm currently going all-out to try to prove you wrong!

If we put the worst manager in the world with an extremely low reputation amateur club full of schoolkids all with Current Ability of 1, and a commitment to only recruit academy kids, how do you think they will get on?