Real Madrid dominant simply because they are called Real Madrid

[zsolt86]

I'm on my 6th season of my current career save. So far I had 8 games against Real Madrid ,7 defeats and 1 draw which was understandable until now. My current team is Valencia, we won the Spanish League and the Conference League the previous year. I strenghtened my team with investing almost  £100m, but it doesn't make any difference. On my last game we didn't have one single shot on target. Unrealistic and boringly predictable.

And yeah let's say my tactics are **** (which btw works against any other team), but still ... in real life hard to imagine Real Madrid to make such a dominance, especially against a team with similar value.  I watched the full game, my players just simply unable to play football against them . Sending long shots like crazy and not moving to support the team mates. All instructions completely ignored. It feels that all is decided by reputation, and it's highly exagerrated.  With my previous team (MOL Fehervar, which fair enough is an underdog) I played against Real Madrid in CL group stage. They got a penalty in the first minute  , show me a real life CL game where a penalty was given in the first minute. All because we are talking about Real Madrid. I think in the future I will just go on holiday when playing against them, waste of time, the result is known anyway.

[Ferocious289]

I think Liverpool are far worse on the game, they are supercharged and dominant like no other, guarenteed to concede a penalty and a red card against them if the game is tight, to make sure you get shafted even though irl they are slowly regressing as a force.

[DarJ]

44 minutes ago, zsolt86 said:

I strenghtened my team with investing almost  £100m

didn't Real Madrid strengthen as well?

[Pafnus]

no.. match engine is same for everyteam regardless player or ai, and reputation.

 

may you pls upload save file to let us try

[rp1966]

Reputation is likely a factor in calculating game pressure, which will be fed into the ME - whether that is too powerful in the case of the very highest rep teams I'm not going to go into. However, if  you wanted to test it and have the in-game editor you could either leave RM's reputation as it is and switch their players for a bunch of lower league players or just severely reduce their reputation (team and players) and see what happens to their results.

 

Edited January 8, 2023 by rp1966

[Lord Rowell]

I'm playing a save as Barcelona, into S4.

They're dominant because they have more money than everyone else. Their wage budget is £6m+. My wage budget has been as low as £3.5m due to the financial difficulties Barcelona face. We're stable thanks to my management and our wage budget is £4m now but way behind Real Madrid's. When you then consider that Barca are Real's closest rivals, you understand why they are dominant, adding to that they have a gifted generation of midfielders coming through e.g. Camavinga, Tchouameni and the best keeper in the world in Courtois - the bane of my life in El Classico derbies!

I did win La Liga in S3, but 6 pts behind at halfway point of S4 so I think the title will be going back to Madrid this season.

But that's the reason why, there's no conspiracy, its how it is.

[zsolt86]

Not sure some people understand my point here. Just by putting the odds and statistics together, the outcome of the game is ridiculous. I just went through all the games of Madrid this season.  I picked up the most dominant LaLiga and Champions League games they had so far. One is a 4-1 win against Mallorca, and the other is the 5-1 victory against Celtic. Just look at the stats, you can't even compare it with what they did to me in the game. Do you understand what 40 shots in 90min means, especially that I had one. That's like they are alone on the pitch, without any opponent.

And every game is like this. We play well or at least have a balanced game with Barcelona or any other team, but when it comes to Real Madrid , my players turn into complete rubbish. 

No matter how bad my tactics are, but by having  £40-50m  attacking midfielders/strikers, they should finish 1 or 2 strikes just by individual value/talent, regardless my tactics. But looking at the full game, hmmm... what to say, it's funny to watch them. 

I don't mind to lose against Real Madrid, as mentioned, they have bigger budget and more value, probably better manager. But constantly getting hammered with these stats, which could never happen in real life, that's a proof, that teams like Real Madrid/Liverpool are overpowered against you. 

 

Edited January 8, 2023 by zsolt86

[Ferocious289]

14 minutes ago, zsolt86 said:

Not sure some people understand my point here. Just by putting the odds and statistics together, the outcome of the game is ridiculous. I just went through all the games of Madrid this season.  I picked up the most dominant LaLiga and Champions League games they had so far. One is a 4-1 win against Mallorca, and the other is the 5-1 victory against Celtic. Just look at the stats, you can't even compare it with what they did to me in the game. Do you understand what 40 shots in 90min means, especially that I had one. That's like they are alone on the pitch, without any opponent.

And every game is like this. We play well or at least have a balanced game with Barcelona or any other team, but when it comes to Real Madrid , my players turn into complete rubbish. 

No matter how bad my tactics are, but by having  £40-50m  attacking midfielders/strikers, they should finish 1 or 2 strikes just by individual value/talent, regardless my tactics. But looking at the full game, hmmm... what to say, it's funny to watch them. 

I don't mind to lose against Real Madrid, as mentioned, they have bigger budget and more value, probably better manager. But constantly getting hammered with these stats, which could never happen in real life, that's a proof, that teams like Real Madrid/Liverpool are overpowered against you. 

 

 

It can be done, you just have to make sure your set up is more conservative especially away from home so go on the defensive and adopt a mid block, because they are always going to come at you and leave gaps at the back for good attacking players to exploit. They may have possession but if you have he right players for your system your team will end up being more clinical. Only thing you can't account for is the random penalties, 1st shot 1st goal along with the sending offs, just write the game off at that point lol

[dannyfc]

15 minutes ago, zsolt86 said:

Not sure some people understand my point here. Just by putting the odds and statistics together, the outcome of the game is ridiculous. I just went through all the games of Madrid this season.  I picked up the most dominant LaLiga and Champions League games they had so far. One is a 4-1 win against Mallorca, and the other is the 5-1 victory against Celtic. Just look at the stats, you can't even compare it with what they did to me in the game. Do you understand what 40 shots in 90min means, especially that I had one. That's like they are alone on the pitch, without any opponent.

And every game is like this. We play well or at least have a balanced game with Barcelona or any other team, but when it comes to Real Madrid , my players turn into complete rubbish. 

No matter how bad my tactics are, but by having  £40-50m  attacking midfielders/strikers, they should finish 1 or 2 strikes just by individual value/talent, regardless my tactics. But looking at the full game, hmmm... what to say, it's funny to watch them. 

I don't mind to lose against Real Madrid, as mentioned, they have bigger budget and more value, probably better manager. But constantly getting hammered with these stats, which could never happen in real life, that's a proof, that teams like Real Madrid/Liverpool are overpowered against you. 

 

 

This same topic gets posted time and time again, and it's always the same reply. The calculations in the match engine are an output of player attributes, tactics, morale, condition, and to an certain random chance. That's it

If you're consistently losing again and again to the same team, they must have an significant advantage in at least one of those areas. 

I don't get why people can't just accept that and have to assume there is an ulterior motive at play. If you believe that, then the obvious question is why? Why would the developer bother to give Real Madrid (or anyone) their own unique advantage? 

[enigmatic]

If you concede 40 shots with 11 men on the pitch against a team that isn't a couple of divisions better than you, the problem isn't that there's some magical easter egg the developers put in to make you personally outclassed by Real Madrid (but none of the many, many FM players that beat Real Madrid) the problem is that you screwed up your tactics. Period.

 

[zsolt86]

 Never mind, these comments are going in  a complete different direction from the issue, so I accept it as it is. I never suggested that there is any advantage given to anyone by the developers, all I said is that the dominance is exaggerated by the game engine. This game  isjust a piece of code, some of it's aspects try to copy the real life, while some parts are built in more generic way. Collisions are possible between the 2 concepts.

Anyway ... I will try to make my tactics even worse, so maybe next time  Vinicius Jr will fly over my defenders with the ball and then score with a bycicle kick.

Thanks.

[_mxrky]

3 hours ago, enigmatic said:

If you concede 40 shots with 11 men on the pitch against a team that isn't a couple of divisions better than you, the problem isn't that there's some magical easter egg the developers put in to make you personally outclassed by Real Madrid (but none of the many, many FM players that beat Real Madrid) the problem is that you screwed up your tactics. Period.

 

I've lost 9-0 to liverpool on a previous fm with tactics that were decently balanced with a stronger team 

[enigmatic]

47 minutes ago, _mxrky said:

I've lost 9-0 to liverpool on a previous fm with tactics that were decently balanced with a stronger team 

Maybe your tactics weren't as balanced and your team not as strong as you thought!  

It's not like Liverpool and Real Madrid aren't frequently beaten by human managers in game. Don't think I've ever managed to lose 9-0 either, and I've played against a lot of teams that are better than me including elite ones, and occasionally even got a bit silly trying to chase the game against them.

If anything I'd say FM typically has the opposite problem: high reputation AI sides underperform on average against human sides because much of their success against weaker AI-managed sides comes because the weaker sides are set up to keep the score down rather than exploit their weaknesses.

[anagain]

Keep trying. The game doesn't show bias. It doesn't decide that Real Madrid should be better than you, regardless of what you have spent, so therefore you must lose. It just doesn't do that. It can't.

Therefore it must be tactical. Something you are failing to do with your improved players. Maybe you're saying the wrong things in press conferences or in team talks. Maybe the players you improved to just don't like the really big games.

It's easier to just blame the game though.

[ajw10]

6 minutes ago, anagain said:

Keep trying. The game doesn't show bias. It doesn't decide that Real Madrid should be better than you, regardless of what you have spent, so therefore you must lose. It just doesn't do that. It can't.

Therefore it must be tactical. Something you are failing to do with your improved players. Maybe you're saying the wrong things in press conferences or in team talks. Maybe the players you improved to just don't like the really big games.

It's easier to just blame the game though.

It doesn't, but I think it's quite clear that reputation counts for a little too much on this game.

[anagain]

4 minutes ago, ajw10 said:

It doesn't, but I think it's quite clear that reputation counts for a little too much on this game.

Glad you have all just assumed it is reputation that won Real Madrid a game. It's nothing at all to do with tactics and/or the right or wrong players.

There is another thread on the front page today that talks about end of season loss of form that makes a team crumble. People assume that because a formation works early season it must work throughout. Changes need to be made more in FM23.

I am sure there is a whole lot more than reputation playing the part here. I'd suggest the op visit the tactics forum for advice.

Most of us can improve at FM. I know I can. I'm having a meltdown in my current season where a seemingly strong position has turned to nerves. I know the answer is there and it's up to me to find it. I have found it a whole lot harder to win reliably in FM23. The AI does seem better at beating the user.

 

Surely it's also better to be challenged, too? If teams like Real Madrid or PSG were juste asily turned over then I'm sure there'd be a grumble about that instead.

[ajw10]

1 minute ago, anagain said:

Glad you have all just assumed it is reputation that won Real Madrid a game. It's nothing at all to do with tactics and/or the right or wrong players.

There is another thread on the front page today that talks about end of season loss of form that makes a team crumble. People assume that because a formation works early season it must work throughout. Changes need to be made more in FM23.

I am sure there is a whole lot more than reputation playing the part here. I'd suggest the op visit the tactics forum for advice.

Most of us can improve at FM. I know I can. I'm having a meltdown in my current season where a seemingly strong position has turned to nerves. I know the answer is there and it's up to me to find it. I have found it a whole lot harder to win reliably in FM23. The AI does seem better at beating the user.

 

Surely it's also better to be challenged, too? If teams like Real Madrid or PSG were juste asily turned over then I'm sure there'd be a grumble about that instead.

I haven't assumed anything, I've just played FM long enough. It's far too easy to beat a team like Real Madrid at home and losing away to them is basically a given.

 

[themadsheep2001]

2 hours ago, enigmatic said:

Maybe your tactics weren't as balanced and your team not as strong as you thought!  

It's not like Liverpool and Real Madrid aren't frequently beaten by human managers in game. Don't think I've ever managed to lose 9-0 either, and I've played against a lot of teams that are better than me including elite ones, and occasionally even got a bit silly trying to chase the game against them.

If anything I'd say FM typically has the opposite problem: high reputation AI sides underperform on average against human sides because much of their success against weaker AI-managed sides comes because the weaker sides are set up to keep the score down rather than exploit their weaknesses.

Think I lost to Liverpool once in 9 games in my last save, and that was actually at home. Constantly turned them over away from home because they did the same thing: throw the kitchen sink at you with a high and wide back line. Stay narrow and let them cross all day and just bombed down the pitch on the counter 

[enigmatic]

1 hour ago, ajw10 said:

It doesn't, but I think it's quite clear that reputation counts for a little too much on this game.

Most of what reputation counts for is AI tactical choices. And generally the underdog human player has a massive advantage over the AI underdog because its tactical choices aren't constrained to picking realistically defensive formations which lose a realistic amount of the time...

[Ferocious289]

1 hour ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Think I lost to Liverpool once in 9 games in my last save, and that was actually at home. Constantly turned them over away from home because they did the same thing: throw the kitchen sink at you with a high and wide back line. Stay narrow and let them cross all day and just bombed down the pitch on the counter 

It can be done but there is no doubt they are souped up and been so far years on fm comparative to how they perform irl

[themadsheep2001]

21 minutes ago, Ferocious289 said:

It can be done but there is no doubt they are souped up and been so far years on fm comparative to how they perform irl

I mean,  they are remarkably simple to beat if you know what you're and its only this season they have fallen off from being one of the best teams in Europe. But there's no mechanic that inflates teams 

[Sunstrikuuu]

24 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

I mean,  they are remarkably simple to beat if you know what you're and its only this season they have fallen off from being one of the best teams in Europe. But there's no mechanic that inflates teams 

Well, reputation.  Not tactically (though that's always been an explanation given to people who complain that their tactics stop working in January; their team's reputation has increased and the league takes them more seriously now), but in terms of transfers.  Reputation's a two-way street, though, and while it helps teams like Manchester United and Barcelona year-on-year it's not great for teams that don't start in that exalted position.

[themadsheep2001]

4 minutes ago, Sunstrikuuu said:

Well, reputation.  Not tactically (though that's always been an explanation given to people who complain that their tactics stop working in January; their team's reputation has increased and the league takes them more seriously now), but in terms of transfers.  Reputation's a two-way street, though, and while it helps teams like Manchester United and Barcelona year-on-year it's not great for teams that don't start in that exalted position.

But I'm not talking about transfers, I'm talking about tactically.  Liverpool are going to largely play aggressive football at home, and AI teams, particularly lower ones will be more conservative but human players can set up however they want. And if you know Liverpool are going to play high wide and run with the ball you set up accordingly. 

[themadsheep2001]

1 hour ago, enigmatic said:

Most of what reputation counts for is AI tactical choices. And generally the underdog human player has a massive advantage over the AI underdog because its tactical choices aren't constrained to picking realistically defensive formations which lose a realistic amount of the time...

This. But ultimately, if you're giving up 40 shots to a side in the same league as you, particularly when they arent completly miles ahead of your quality, I couldn't even chalk that up as a bad day. I'd go back to the drawing board immediately.

[Etebaer]

Klopps influence starts to detoriate after 7 yrs. it is said - maybe it is true bcs you need to change your team quite drastically at some point and i dont know if he can do it and be ruthless enough to players with past, old merits that block the place for players that are able get/win new merits.

I dont know if he still wears his glasses or not but without glasses he has a bad aura and looks like an angry old grandpa and maybe he is tired but does not acknowledge it.

Also i doubt Liverpool is willing to pay what needs to be payed for to compete with Man City - Man City network and the networkinvestments go way beyond what is in Citys finances shown bcs it is added to someones else finances in the network.

 

And Madrid is a phenomenon while Barcelone shot itself into its knee with its messimania...why would they not dominate the teams in their league if not for letting it go and play only as good as needed like all big clubs do.

I dont know if this saying exists in english but it says: "Good Horses only jump as high as needed."

 

What i can say is that as far as i have come now in 4 season the way the ME plays my numbers of possession have changed drastically and while in the past my tactic had a more evened out 50/50 possesion paired with a usually clear superiority in shots like 2 or 3 to 1 this has changed and my teams with the same tactic now have usually ~63% possession (quite often against superior teams) and shots for/aginst vary wildly (and i have won some games with 0.5 vs 4.5 XG and maybe 2 to 16 shots against me while losing some that according to the stats i should have never lost).

So the ingame things could be that the chosen Madrid tactic is simply producing huge numbers of possession based stats bcs of the ME change.

 

Edited January 9, 2023 by Etebaer

[marionk]

Remember back fm20 played as RM, first season, faced Liverpool at CL quarter, i have had save/load ... 18 times to accept the fact that we could not even hold them to a draw, totally destroyed. One of these games they scored 12 goals, in other games they scored 4-5 goals per. I was not even mad, that was amazing 

[Pipster]

Ah the old game is stacked against me. This is as old as the internet is.

There are so many variables in this game that can affect the result of a match. It could even be the weather or the ref. 

Last season in my save playing as Newcastle away to Liverpool I got beat 2-1. Even after scouting them and researching them, my game plan was to press them with hard tackling. I got beat 2-1

After the game I looked at what did I do wrong as the stats suggest it was pretty even and I had more chances on target. Simple fact was I pressed for to long and by the end of the game the players were tired and Liverpool took advantage. I had 2 great chances to score near the end of the game and Wilson should of scored them but he was tired and not firing at his best. Simple as that. In hindsight I should of stopped pressing and stopped counter attacking and tried to see out the game and get a draw. That would of been a good result considering the quality of players I had and the squad that I had. I also looked at the stats for the game and Henderson who was playing in a DM role and he had a very high pass completition and was also involved in the most pass combinations. He was main the link from defence to midfield or right to left. Everything was going through him as he had the highest number of passes and highest completition percentage,

I next got Liverpool in the FA Cup Quarter Final and at home. I decided to go with 2 DM's this time and to man mark Henderson and press him. This time I also decided to try and see the first half out with not as much pressing as the previous game to try and keep energy for the second half. Liverpool press quite a bit so turned the tables on them and pressed them in the last 30 mins of the game. This time they were tired and we score in the 83rd minute and then again during injury time.

 

In the return fixture at home in the league it finished 0-0. This was mainly down to me playing more defensive as players were tired and I was trying to rest players as had Arsenal in the Semi Final of the FA Cup, ended up losing that Semi Final and it wasn't because the game is against me. It was because I didn't have a good enough squad to rotate and play with players that were good enough.

Honestly, in those 18 games in your save, where you played against Real Madrid you have to look at where the goals come from? Who scored, who assisted? Did they come from crosses? Also if you played that game 18 times by quitting and reloading it then I presume you played a different tactic 18 times? Tactic Familiarity is massive in this game. I've tested the game myself to try and getting an understanding of how the match engine works. I have tested the game on stubborn matches in this version and other versions to try and work out why I kept losing in a certain match and why my players were performing badly. Not to cheat but to just understand the Match Engine and to learn. I don't get into the whole game is fixed. Why would it be? I normally belive there is a reason for certain things and I enjoy trying to find out what the reason is and then to learn from it. I remember one particular game against Leeds away and I could not work out what I was doing wrong. Spent ages reloading the game to tweak tactics etc, just to learn how the game and match engine works and thinks. Really frustrated as couldn't work out what it was and it turned out it wasn't my tactic, Playes were tired. From that save onwards I have used the medical centre so much more because I can now look at who is playing too many games, who has heavy training and who is fatigued. Before this I would just go by the heart system and the match sharpness. Now though I also look at the match load, training load etc.

For example the 2nd and 3rd  top players below have played 3 matches in the last 14 days. There is no way they are going to be able to play that many games and have a high training load but as I needed to play those particular players because of injuries I had to lessen their training to keep them fresh for games. In other positions I can push their training higher and work them harder as they are not playing as many matches in a short period of time.

 

The game isn't fixed to beat you every time. The problem is you haven't worked out how to counter and beat a certain AI manager. If you uploaded your save game I bet many people could give you tons of advice of where you are going wrong or try and give you advice.

[wazzaflow10]

16 hours ago, themadsheep2001 said:

But I'm not talking about transfers, I'm talking about tactically.  Liverpool are going to largely play aggressive football at home, and AI teams, particularly lower ones will be more conservative but human players can set up however they want. And if you know Liverpool are going to play high wide and run with the ball you set up accordingly. 

There is a funky effect going on for away teams though. I even submitted a bug ticket for it. In a test I ran over 4 years away teams scored 230 goals fewer in the game game compared real life PL stats. Liverpool and Man City give up fewer than 10 goals a year at home consistently in the game. That's happened maybe once or twice in the past four non covid seasons. I don't know if its a reputation thing or a mentality thing but there's something preventing away teams from performing realistically in attack.

I don't know if it was in the ME when the game was released but it's there now.

[_mxrky]

He still shouldn't be conceding 40 shots regardless of how bad his tactic is (unless he's using something that has absolutely no coverage). Show me any real life game where a team has 40 shots. 

[themadsheep2001]

Actually if your set up is that bad you'll concede shed loads of shots. The difference is you'll rarely see managers IRL set up as badly and teams tend to take their foot off the gas a bit more than they do in FM if the game is won

[davehanson]

On 08/01/2023 at 22:47, themadsheep2001 said:

Think I lost to Liverpool once in 9 games in my last save, and that was actually at home. Constantly turned them over away from home because they did the same thing: throw the kitchen sink at you with a high and wide back line. Stay narrow and let them cross all day and just bombed down the pitch on the counter 

How are you doing that though?

What I mean is, you are setting up there to specifically play Liverpool. You know they are going to play high and wide so you stay narrow and counter with focusing play through the middle. With only 3 training slots for tactics - which take quite a while to learn so your players are competent, how do you win that game even playing the 'correct' way?

It's just it never happens with me. I alter tactics depending on who I am, who I am playing, whether home or away, but if I try to deviate too far from my base 3 tactics then I am knackered - will just get beaten easily. I am (only) guessing you don't play the way you do against Liverpool most of the season, so I guess I am asking what are you doing to get your players familiar with that way of playing?

[themadsheep2001]

Just now, davehanson said:

How are you doing that though?

What I mean is, you are setting up there to specifically play Liverpool. You know they are going to play high and wide so you stay narrow and counter with focusing play through the middle. With only 3 training slots for tactics - which take quite a while to learn so your players are competent, how do you win that game even playing the 'correct' way?

It's just it never happens with me. I alter tactics depending on who I am, who I am playing, whether home or away, but if I try to deviate too far from my base 3 tactics then I am knackered - will just get beaten easily. I am (only) guessing you don't play the way you do against Liverpool most of the season, so I guess I am asking what are you doing to get your players familiar with that way of playing?

Nothing, I have a system that I tend to play ( I usually have some sort of tactical replication going) and I just make a few tweaks within that system. 

[davehanson]

On 09/01/2023 at 10:41, Pipster said:

 

I next got Liverpool in the FA Cup Quarter Final and at home. I decided to go with 2 DM's this time 

 

Honestly, in those 18 games in your save, where you played against Real Madrid you have to look at where the goals come from? Who scored, who assisted? Did they come from crosses? Also if you played that game 18 times by quitting and reloading it then I presume you played a different tactic 18 times? Tactic Familiarity is massive in this game.

I guess the same question as I have just asked themadsheep2001.

You are right, tactical familiarity is massive, but you can change to 2 DM's and win the game. How? 

[davehanson]

1 minute ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Nothing, I have a system that I tend to play ( I usually have some sort of tactical replication going) and I just make a few tweaks within that system. 

Right, so you usually play narrow, counter and through the middle?

So you are not adapting to the way that they play then, it just happened that your system that you usually play nullifies theirs and exploits their weakness's? 

[themadsheep2001]

1 minute ago, davehanson said:

Right, so you usually play narrow, counter and through the middle?

So you are not adapting to the way that they play then, it just happened that your system that you usually play nullifies theirs and exploits their weakness's? 

I didn't say that at all. I literally just said I make a few tweaks to my system. 

[DarJ]

9 minutes ago, davehanson said:

which take quite a while to learn so your players are competent

tactical familiarity is overrated. It's nowhere as important as people tend to make it to be in my opinion 

[davehanson]

Just now, themadsheep2001 said:

I didn't say that at all. I literally just said I make a few tweaks to my system. 

I wasn't trying to put words into your mouth - I am trying to understand this because it is bugging the hell out of me. Sorry, didn't mean to offend.

My usual playstyle if I am a fairly decent team is shorter passing, a little wider width, counter press, higher line. If I play a 'better' team and I want to defend a little deeper, so drop the line to normal, go a little narrower - drop that to standard width and counter attack as I expect them to have most of the ball but feel my strikers can do some damage on the counter, then I inevitably end up getting mauled. I am usually better sticking with my standard playstyle and hoping I can beat them that way.

I would say my changes are only a few tweaks - not going from one extreme to the other, yet it just doesn't work without that familiarity being top notch, so am wondering where the differences are that you find.

[davehanson]

3 minutes ago, DarJ said:

tactical familiarity is overrated. It's nowhere as important as people tend to make it to be in my opinion 

Yet I find the opposite. If I have new players to bed in, or have converted to a new tactic then it takes a good 4 or 5 games for my team to start getting good results. We might scrape victories and wins, but it doesn't feel good until that familiarity is there.

[DarJ]

Just now, davehanson said:

Yet I find the opposite. If I have new players to bed in, or have converted to a new tactic then it takes a good 4 or 5 games for my team to start getting good results. We might scrape victories and wins, but it doesn't feel good until that familiarity is there.

that's fair I'm just talking from experience, I've done challenges where every month in game we change tactic and the next person can't use any other formation that has been used prior and we still do very well 

[themadsheep2001]

2 minutes ago, DarJ said:

tactical familiarity is overrated. It's nowhere as important as people tend to make it to be in my opinion 

They key bit is you're not as penalised for making tweaks as people tend to make it. 

Right now I'm playing a Nagelsmann style 4-2-3-1, typically a high D line and high line of  engagement as you expect. Rather that letting Liverpool tire out my pressing I simply lower D line and LOE by one, let the midfield become more combative, and don't let them cut inside. My CF usually goes to a playing on the shoulder role, and I narrow my defensive width. 

[themadsheep2001]

20 minutes ago, davehanson said:

I wasn't trying to put words into your mouth - I am trying to understand this because it is bugging the hell out of me. Sorry, didn't mean to offend.

My usual playstyle if I am a fairly decent team is shorter passing, a little wider width, counter press, higher line. If I play a 'better' team and I want to defend a little deeper, so drop the line to normal, go a little narrower - drop that to standard width and counter attack as I expect them to have most of the ball but feel my strikers can do some damage on the counter, then I inevitably end up getting mauled. I am usually better sticking with my standard playstyle and hoping I can beat them that way.

I would say my changes are only a few tweaks - not going from one extreme to the other, yet it just doesn't work without that familiarity being top notch, so am wondering where the differences are that you find.

No offence taken. But one thing I would say is how specialised is your system?

Is it built for flexibility? I'd call a lot of what I play "super systems" they reflect a play style, but aren't so specialised that I can't tweak a few roles or TIs without it all breaking down. I don't usually use more than one slot. 

[themadsheep2001]

@davehanson im starting new save soon, doing a Ten Hag system. I'll try and explain what I mean better with images. 

[davehanson]

20 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

No offence taken. But one thing I would say is how specialised is your system?

Is it built for flexibility? I'd call a lot of what I play "super systems" they reflect a play style, but aren't so specialised that I can't tweak a few roles or TIs without it all breaking down. I don't usually use more than one slot. 

I wouldn't say it is particularly specialised to be honest - not really sure though if I am being totally honest. I very rarely use what you would call specialised roles (RPM, F9's etc). Maybe it is just me being completely bad at adapting tactics? As I said, and this isn't a I can't win, I win the games by playing 'my' way. 

But you know, say as Man Utd - go to an away game against Madrid/Bayern etc and they are better than you. So I would then change to play that little deeper, a little narrower, nothing too extreme, but would just end up getting played off the park. So, I tend to just revert to my default style and hope it turns out okay. Not sure if that is making sense with what i want to say?

 

[themadsheep2001]

5 minutes ago, davehanson said:

I wouldn't say it is particularly specialised to be honest - not really sure though if I am being totally honest. I very rarely use what you would call specialised roles (RPM, F9's etc). Maybe it is just me being completely bad at adapting tactics? As I said, and this isn't a I can't win, I win the games by playing 'my' way. 

But you know, say as Man Utd - go to an away game against Madrid/Bayern etc and they are better than you. So I would then change to play that little deeper, a little narrower, nothing too extreme, but would just end up getting played off the park. So, I tend to just revert to my default style and hope it turns out okay. Not sure if that is making sense with what i want to say?

 

I know what you mean, you're looking to adapt but actually end up giving away more of an advantage 

[zsolt86]

On 09/01/2023 at 18:09, _mxrky said:

He still shouldn't be conceding 40 shots regardless of how bad his tactic is (unless he's using something that has absolutely no coverage). Show me any real life game where a team has 40 shots. 

It seems, that you're the only one getting my point here. They had 55% possession, that's like 50min. How the hell they create 40 chances in 50 minutes?  I do accept that my tactics may not work, and I'm not a very good player, but in my opinion the stats of that game are completely out of real life's context. As you said, we can't point to a professional football game in the past, where a a team concedes 40 shots, or a penalty is awarded in the first minute.  I haven't started the game for 3 days, it feels good.

[themadsheep2001]

@davehanson just read my second to last reply to you which makes it sounds like I'm annoyed. I definitely wasn't! Was on the tube so had to be brief due to signal. But tone doesn't carry across words, sorry!

[davehanson]

4 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

@davehanson just read my second to last reply to you which makes it sounds like I'm annoyed. I definitely wasn't! Was on the tube so had to be brief due to signal. But tone doesn't carry across words, sorry!

No, thats okay. I re-read my remarks to you and thought they could have come accross not how I meant them too.

I am currently re-reading Pairs and Combinations in the TTF, haven't read it for quite some time, hoping that I might be able to pick up a few bits I have missed from it. Will look out to see if you post anything on your Ten Hag system.

[_mxrky]

On 09/01/2023 at 18:37, themadsheep2001 said:

Actually if your set up is that bad you'll concede shed loads of shots. The difference is you'll rarely see managers IRL set up as badly and teams tend to take their foot off the gas a bit more than they do in FM if the game is won

I’ve seen managers play the most horrid set ups and still not concede 40 shots irl. 40 shots is a shot every 2 minutes. Even pl sides playing against national league sides don’t create 40 chances. It’s been a problem in fm for years. It’s far too easy to rack up the number of shots. If you look across all European games in the last month I doubt you’ll find a game where a team has 40 shots

[wazzaflow10]

11 hours ago, themadsheep2001 said:

My CF usually goes to a playing on the shoulder role

I know what that means in real life but is that reflected in the game as an Adv. Forward? Poacher? Pressing Forward with attack duty? 

[mikcheck]

18 horas atrás, themadsheep2001 disse:

They key bit is you're not as penalised for making tweaks as people tend to make it. 

Right now I'm playing a Nagelsmann style 4-2-3-1, typically a high D line and high line of  engagement as you expect. Rather that letting Liverpool tire out my pressing I simply lower D line and LOE by one, let the midfield become more combative, and don't let them cut inside. My CF usually goes to a playing on the shoulder role, and I narrow my defensive width. 

@themadsheep2001hi sorry but could you please post your setup?  Also, about going with a narrower defensive width, is it something you normally change depending on the opponent and their formation? You go narrow against strong teams?

Thanks!

Edited January 11, 2023 by mikcheck