Realistic Coaching Qualifications

[Charlie5Marine]

Hello SI Forums,

This question has always been one I have wrestled with when starting a save.

What coaching badges are realistic for various levels of the game?

I enjoy the LLM/Unemployed way of playing and take that approach for all my saves since FM20. However, I am pretty sure that having no exp/badges would make me taking over a VNL North/South team highly unlikely.

Using England as a model, what badges would be required and what is realistic at each level?

Also, do coaching badges make the game significantly easier than playing experience (aka reputation impacts)?

Appreciate any feedback and discussion.

Respectfully,

Eric

Edited January 8, 2023 by Charlie5Marine

[DrIgz]

I have always had a similar issue with wanting a level of realism. The reality is that you need coaching badges for almost all levels of the game. I'm not sure what would be required for VNL North/South but I would suspect that League 2 would require a Pro Diploma. VNL North/South would certainly have some regulation as well, you cannot be unaccredited. I'm sure there are lower reaches of the game in each country where perhaps you would require no badge, but it would have to very low, especially in a country like England.

If I had to hazard a guess, I would suspect that you need a continental A Licence for VNL North/South. Maybe it's a B Licence, but I would be extremely surprised if you could get away with a C Licence. I am happy to be proven wrong by someone who actually has experience working at this level in real life.

[FrazT]

Is there not still an option at the start of a save to set your qualifications to match the team that you have chosen to manage?

[warlock]

1 hour ago, FrazT said:

Is there not still an option at the start of a save to set your qualifications to match the team that you have chosen to manage?

There is.

[Charlie5Marine]

1 hour ago, FrazT said:

Is there not still an option at the start of a save to set your qualifications to match the team that you have chosen to manage?

There is, I don’t know what the metric is for that or what feeds that selection. 
 

I was looking to see what the real world correlation would be then see how the badge level affects my game.

-Note- I also want to see how much more difficult the game would be if I had a higher badge and no reputation etc.

[phnompenhandy]

I like to start in the 10th tier with a bunch of amateur village bumpkins. I watch the highlights of the real-life teams on YouTube and enjoy the fat guys, the talentless lumpers - they make the match engine at that level look really accurate. And I think it is realistic for someone like me with zero qualifications to get a manager's job as a non-salaried voluntary gig. In my current save I've even used the editor to populate my starting squad wih 15 year old kids all with CA1.

[Brother Ben]

It's an interesting question as a lot of leagues have a minimum badge requirement however finding this information is tricky. 

I have always started with no badges and no qualifications and the narrative I give myself is that I've been employed under the assumption that I will be taking my first badge as soon as I start which in most cases you can definitely do and you will be studying for this badge before you play your first game.   We had this very debate on one of the LLM forums a while back and I don't think a consensus was agreed.

To be honest I think maybe using the recommended feature but making sure playing experience is set to Sunday league might be the realistic way to go.  For England Level 6 VN/S the game sets this as National A.  I may look to incorporate this into the LLM guidelines on my site but it would need to be a simple guideline such as use National C or just click recommended as I doubt a comprehensive list of minimum requirements could ever be obtained.

edit - I just checked Norway tier 3 and the game recommends Continental B which feels a little high for my tastes and having experimented a little it seems that its based on club reputation but I'm not sure what a more realistic guideline would be.

I found this for England-

https://www.thenonleaguefootballpaper.com/latest-news/22370/what-does-it-take-to-manage-a-non-league-football-team/

Quote

"The first FA course is the only qualification that you need to manage a nonleague football team. It costs around £150 – £200 and requires 32 hours of education in both the theory and practical elements of football coaching. During this course, you will learn about first aid, defense, attack, pass and control, shooting and more. In the end, there will be a 20-minute assessment and oral interview to pass the course.
Once you have your FA Level 1 badge, you can manage a nonleague team."

I assume Level 1 is equivalent to FM's National C?

The next part is slightly vaguer-

Quote

"But to advance any further, you will probably need to complete the Level 2 course. Managers at high league clubs will also need to finish the final Level 3 course, too."

 

Edited January 11, 2023 by Brother Ben

[Hovis Dexter]

I almost always use the option at the start of a save to set my qualifications to match the team that I have chosen to manage as I think that this is quite realistic. I've found that if you start with lower qualifications the players all hate you, at least until you've won a couple of leagues and on the other hand it does seem a bit pointless starting as a fully qualified international superstar in the lower leagues.

[Charlie5Marine]

11 hours ago, Brother Ben said:

It's an interesting question as a lot of leagues have a minimum badge requirement however finding this information is tricky. 

I have always started with no badges and no qualifications and the narrative I give myself is that I've been employed under the assumption that I will be taking my first badge as soon as I start which in most cases you can definitely do and you will be studying for this badge before you play your first game.   We had this very debate on one of the LLM forums a while back and I don't think a consensus was agreed.

To be honest I think maybe using the recommended feature but making sure playing experience is set to Sunday league might be the realistic way to go.  For England Level 6 VN/S the game sets this as National A.  I may look to incorporate this into the LLM guidelines on my site but it would need to be a simple guideline such as use National C or just click recommended as I doubt a comprehensive list of minimum requirements could ever be obtained.

edit - I just checked Norway tier 3 and the game recommends Continental B which feels a little high for my tastes and having experimented a little it seems that its based on club reputation but I'm not sure what a more realistic guideline would be.

I found this for England-

https://www.thenonleaguefootballpaper.com/latest-news/22370/what-does-it-take-to-manage-a-non-league-football-team/

I assume Level 1 is equivalent to FM's National C?

The next part is slightly vaguer-

 

Ben,

Its funny the way the universe works…it was your LLM site that got me me thinking about this question.

[Brother Ben]

1 hour ago, Charlie5Marine said:

Ben,

Its funny the way the universe works…it was your LLM site that got me me thinking about this question.

That's good to hear, it's been hard going updating it for FM23 but i'm getting there slowly!

I just had a quick look to at the managers in the game at Vanarama North/South level and most have Continental badges with a few having National A/B.   Only 2 have none at all but both have managerial pedigree which proves your initial assertion.

The main issue I have I suppose is that because of the way the game works if you have a continental badge when you start that low you are very likely (unless this has changed in FM23) to get offers from very high up the pyramid which is wholly unrealistic.

 

[phnompenhandy]

4 hours ago, Charlie5Marine said:

Ben,

Its funny the way the universe works…it was your LLM site that got me me thinking about this question.

What's the link to the website?

[Charlie5Marine]

4 hours ago, Brother Ben said:

That's good to hear, it's been hard going updating it for FM23 but i'm getting there slowly!

I just had a quick look to at the managers in the game at Vanarama North/South level and most have Continental badges with a few having National A/B.   Only 2 have none at all but both have managerial pedigree which proves your initial assertion.

The main issue I have I suppose is that because of the way the game works if you have a continental badge when you start that low you are very likely (unless this has changed in FM23) to get offers from very high up the pyramid which is wholly unrealistic.

 

That was my concern, it’s a “catch-22” if your badge influences your reputation that much. However, it’s also unrealistic that a “no badge” off the street managerial hopeful would be coaching tier 6 of the English pyramid.

Maybe potential for a mod?

[Hovis Dexter]

6 hours ago, phnompenhandy said:

What's the link to the website?

The9llamas.com

[phnompenhandy]

5 minutes ago, Hovis Dexter said:

The9llamas.com

Oh gosh, I remember it from back in the day when we had the LLaMa forum here. In honour of those times, I offer my background to my save in the Scottish Highlands:

[Brother Ben]

23 minutes ago, phnompenhandy said:

Oh gosh, I remember it from back in the day when we had the LLaMa forum here. In honour of those times, I offer my background to my save in the Scottish Highlands:

Love it  

[Brother Ben]

5 hours ago, Charlie5Marine said:

That was my concern, it’s a “catch-22” if your badge influences your reputation that much. However, it’s also unrealistic that a “no badge” off the street managerial hopeful would be coaching tier 6 of the English pyramid.

Maybe potential for a mod?

I think as I mentioned earlier you have to just imagine that "somehow" you got the job.  The game already acknowledges via in-game media that you are under qualified and up against it so for me that's how i've looked at it up until this point.

To be honest though i've come around to the idea of having at least some kind of badge because for those like myself who follow the LLaMa guidelines you tend to self police yourself in terms of job offers and you kind of know what offers are realistic.  

Realism is a hard thing to gauge though.  Check out the epic story of Kevin Cullis at Swansea City 

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/remarkable-story-kevin-cullis-most-10860164

 

Quote

"Cullis managed Swansea City for just one-and-a-half games: a 1–0 home defeat to Swindon Town and 45 minutes of an eventual 4–0 defeat at Blackpool. In the second match, which took place at Bloomfield Road on 13 February 1996, Cullis’ planned half-time team talk was ignored as the players took control. Defender Christian Edwards gave the team talk and game plan instead, and Cullis resigned shortly afterwards."

I think the only way to put an end to the debate is if I study for real life badges  

Edited January 12, 2023 by Brother Ben

[Hovis Dexter]

1 hour ago, Brother Ben said:

...  Check out the epic story of Kevin Cullis at Swansea City ...
 

Brilliant ... I'll continue using the recommended qualifications

[Maviarab]

I think a lot of this comes into the aspect of all managers, however low, paid for most of their badges themselves up to level 3 or 4.  That after 20 years this still isn't in the game quite frankly beggers belief.  So even if you set the badge to the team in the options, just justify it yourself that you spent the few grand it would cost previously to get those necessary badges to coach at that level.

To add to that, in a very similar topic, still surprises me after all these years there is not a setting to be a 'Mourinho'....a man who barely did anything in the game yet got ALL his badges and was tutored by the great man himself and walked straight into a top level job.  Perhaps the most famous manager around yet we can't simulate that.

[enigmatic]

The "badges" are just game-y difficulty levels to set your reputation and stats and give you in-game options to buff them

Of course IRL you'd have a qualification even if taking on a lower league team, you wouldn't be allowed to manage at senior levels without UEFA licences and even if they were in financial difficulty the course fees wouldn't put clubs off (even the UEFA Pro is around €10k) or stop managers acquiring them themselves if the club insisted it wasn't going to pay

 

29 minutes ago, Maviarab said:

To add to that, in a very similar topic, still surprises me after all these years there is not a setting to be a 'Mourinho'....a man who barely did anything in the game yet got ALL his badges and was tutored by the great man himself and walked straight into a top level job.  Perhaps the most famous manager around yet we can't simulate that.

You can start off as manager of Benfica or Porto with a Continental Pro license and Sunday League playing experience if you want. That's actually lower playing experience than Jose, skips his years as assistant manager and you can even start in the Primeira Liga manager without the badges which wouldn't even be allowed IRL

Edited January 12, 2023 by enigmatic

[Charlie5Marine]

Don’t know if anyone has tried this.

I created a manager with Continental Pro License and Sunday League Experience and my reputation was minimal…the skin I was using didn’t give me a percentage but, it was half a star. (I can use the old skin to verify the exact percentage later I suppose)

This may also be more challenging since deputation wouldn’t increase through additional coaching qualification's? (Assumption)

I think this might be more realistic with regards to a Manager taking over a professional club and the certifications. Clubs don’t necessarily hire you based on coaching qual’s in game and I look similar to my counterparts when it comes to reputation and credentials.