Current Match Engine - Central Play Issues

[bababooey]

Part of my frustration with the current state of the match engine is that players in the middle are TERRIFIED of their opponents, and look to pass the ball out wide at the first sign of someone closing down.

This is really annoying because central play is critical to football, regardless of formations and shapes.

Often times players get rushed by what is, in my opinion, a way too OP pressing mechanism, and then just spray the ball wide / forward when they need to actually take their time and pick a pass more carefully...

So much of gameplay is funneled into the flanks. That's why, in my opinion, a lot of the exploit tactics involve HEAVY flank attacks. That's where the game is going, so, attack down those flanks with vigor and take advantage, I suppose.

Do you guys agree with this, or am I off my rocker here?

Here's a video showing what I mean, apologies for the crap quality:

https://streamable.com/khe7tg

The player doing the closing down here has some of the lowest mental and physical attributes you'll find in La Liga. He's slow and not very good at reading the game. Despite that, he's able to close down like he's Roy Keane in his prime!  I think this shows how OP pressing is right now, particularly in the middle of the pitch.

Here's another example:

https://streamable.com/ehuna0

I know the graphical representation isn't what we should be judging, because ultimately the match engine is a series of "dice rolls" that are weighted according to attributes and whatever, but this is just absurd.

Like this does not happen in real football, and it kind of ruins the experience for me. Herrera just runs through Koke like he isn't even there. Koke is a world class midfielder! This happens all the time, to all sorts of players in this match engine. It's just so utterly unrealistic and, in my opinion, broken.

How is anyone supposed to use the middle of the field effectively when the press is THAT effective?

Edited January 19, 2023 by bababooey

[Cloud9]

Yea I totally know what you mean on this. I watched England struggle in the World Cup, and one of their huge problems was they couldn't pass through the middle of the park in transition from defence. They kept having to go wide which really weakened their attacks. Yes attacks out wide that cut in are super in real life but those are in the final third. Great teams are able to control the center of the park and win the game by forcing their opponent outside. 

One of the big takeaways for me was how England have a great DM in Declan Rice but he can't receive the ball under pressure and turn in tight spaces to progress the ball in transition. This means it was almost impossible for them to play through the middle. A player like Veratti on the other hand, press resistant and tenacious, is hugely underrated in FM because his first touch isn't valued and tackling isn't affected by technique. 

In FM playing down the flanks in transition is a positive, which is super frustrating. The press is overpowered, but as it's the in vogue tactic irl I think that's alright. It's more that the press should be extra effective on the wings as it is in Irl (less passing lanes, easier to create pressing traps). For me the problem is more that the match engine doesn't differentiate enough between world class and championship level midfielders. IRL players have to have a great first touch and it's a key attribute for any midfielder, probably the first thing you'd look at in a player. In FM you'd hardly ever get excited because you found a youngster with a good first touch. This bleeds into how rare and valued players who you can pass the ball to when everything sucks are, and how important players are who can make progressive passes rather than passing it sideways or backwards to the defenders.

 

On a side note, love Koke. What a cool player he is. 

Edited January 20, 2023 by Cloud9

[Flohrinho]

I don't necessarily agree that pressing is OP, after all it's the current "meta" in real football as well for a reason. Leaving opponents less time to make decisions and closing out passing options fast is a really effective way to play football. But here is where I'm totally with you, this shouldn't be possible with every team, but in FM it is. In my just for fun save with PSG I played a 4231 with Neymar, Mbappé, Messi and Soler up front, apart from Soler none of these players has aggression or work rate above 10 and my pressing should have failed miserably, just look at how Ronaldo negatively influenced the pressing game of Manchester United, and I was able to play pressing in the game with 3 players up front that all have about the same work rate as Ronaldo.

In short, I don't think player attributes are factored in enough when it comes to what players and teams are able to do on the pitch.

Edited January 20, 2023 by Flohrinho

[Guest]

I on't know why you think Galarreta has bad attributes unless he has different attributes on you save. High work rate, aggression, anticipation and decisions and he's already anticipated and moved towards Koke before the pass has made it to Koke and he"s already up to full pace.

 

 

[Cloud9]

13 hours ago, bababooey said:

Part of my frustration with the current state of the match engine is that players in the middle are TERRIFIED of their opponents, and look to pass the ball out wide at the first sign of someone closing down.

This is really annoying because central play is critical to football, regardless of formations and shapes.

Often times players get rushed by what is, in my opinion, a way too OP pressing mechanism, and then just spray the ball wide / forward when they need to actually take their time and pick a pass more carefully...

So much of gameplay is funneled into the flanks. That's why, in my opinion, a lot of the exploit tactics involve HEAVY flank attacks. That's where the game is going, so, attack down those flanks with vigor and take advantage, I suppose.

Do you guys agree with this, or am I off my rocker here?

Here's a video showing what I mean, apologies for the crap quality:

https://streamable.com/khe7tg

The player doing the closing down here has some of the lowest mental and physical attributes you'll find in La Liga. He's slow and not very good at reading the game. Despite that, he's able to close down like he's Roy Keane in his prime!  I think this shows how OP pressing is right now, particularly in the middle of the pitch.

Here's another example:

https://streamable.com/ehuna0

I know the graphical representation isn't what we should be judging, because ultimately the match engine is a series of "dice rolls" that are weighted according to attributes and whatever, but this is just absurd.

Like this does not happen in real football, and it kind of ruins the experience for me. Herrera just runs through Koke like he isn't even there. Koke is a world class midfielder! This happens all the time, to all sorts of players in this match engine. It's just so utterly unrealistic and, in my opinion, broken.

How is anyone supposed to use the middle of the field effectively when the press is THAT effective?

Side tactical note, weird that your DM doesn't go to the danger in that second clip once they've won the ball. What roll is he on?

[Johnny Ace]

15 hours ago, bababooey said:

Do you guys agree with this, or am I off my rocker here?

Totally agree

I see a pattern in play.

Nice build up from the back, nice and patient short passes, players making good decisions on the ball, things look good

Once you enter the opponent's half, "Turbo mode" I like to call it, kicks in. Fast direct passes, usually played out wide for a wide player to go on a run or direct balls over the top

The Player's AI brains only seem to spot team mates in acres of space once they get into the attacking half and look scared to play passes into the feet of teammates with an opposition player within 10 yards of him 

This pattern seems to happen, regardless of TI's and PI's, if you want to play fast attacking football, it's brilliant. If you're trying to pass the ball up the pitch, it's not going to happen really as someone in DM/CM will punt a long pass 

I think this is why those early midfield battles we had has been pretty much phased out, as the ball doesn't really stay in midfield long. Could also be why player's headers per game is higher than real life. More direct passes = more headers. More balls played wide for wide players to cross = more headers  

I'm sure it'll all get sorted   

[bababooey]

6 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

Side tactical note, weird that your DM doesn't go to the danger in that second clip once they've won the ball. What roll is he on?

Second clip was DM-D, I believe. 

[bababooey]

4 hours ago, Johnny Ace said:

Totally agree

I see a pattern in play.

Nice build up from the back, nice and patient short passes, players making good decisions on the ball, things look good

Once you enter the opponent's half, "Turbo mode" I like to call it, kicks in. Fast direct passes, usually played out wide for a wide player to go on a run or direct balls over the top

The Player's AI brains only seem to spot team mates in acres of space once they get into the attacking half and look scared to play passes into the feet of teammates with an opposition player within 10 yards of him 

This pattern seems to happen, regardless of TI's and PI's, if you want to play fast attacking football, it's brilliant. If you're trying to pass the ball up the pitch, it's not going to happen really as someone in DM/CM will punt a long pass 

I think this is why those early midfield battles we had has been pretty much phased out, as the ball doesn't really stay in midfield long. Could also be why player's headers per game is higher than real life. More direct passes = more headers. More balls played wide for wide players to cross = more headers  

I'm sure it'll all get sorted   

I think you've just articulated what I was trying to say lol. 

I very much hope it gets sorted!

[Guest]

In both those clips Koke is dawdling on the ball albeit he doesn't have much time but his attributes are good enough that he shouldn't be doing what he's doing. and I would pull my hair out if he was doing that in my save. Personally I'm seeing tactical issues in both clips and I don't see any of this behaviour in any of my saves.

The first pic Koke has limited options but he still has two wide open people to pass too so why doesn't he do that? That for me is the first thing that would bug meThe second thing for me is that there is a ton of unoccupied real estate it doesn't look like a setup where a passing team can play through the press, there is a lot wrong there for me.

 

This second clip Koke has one option open to pass to when he receives the pass which is the right winger and again when I look at his options he doesn't have any because players aren't in a great spot to help pass through the press. The other CM would be far more useful in that open space, the FB would be far more useful either where he is or where I have drawn the box, instead he is marauding up in to the same space the left winger is taking up providing no option whatsoever put to try and hoof a ball out wide. If those two players are where I have drawn the boxes Galarreta and co are just chasing shadows while your players pass through them. 

 

 

Look at how my players are situated for my first goal against the league favorites and most press heavy teams I have faced. Much easier to play through them when these are the passing options each player has. I'm not saying this isn't an issue but I certainly am not seeing anything like you're describing.

 

 

Edited January 20, 2023 by Crazy_Ivan

[breze77]

22 hours ago, bababooey said:

Part of my frustration with the current state of the match engine is that players in the middle are TERRIFIED of their opponents, and look to pass the ball out wide at the first sign of someone closing down.

This is really annoying because central play is critical to football, regardless of formations and shapes.

Often times players get rushed by what is, in my opinion, a way too OP pressing mechanism, and then just spray the ball wide / forward when they need to actually take their time and pick a pass more carefully...

So much of gameplay is funneled into the flanks. That's why, in my opinion, a lot of the exploit tactics involve HEAVY flank attacks. That's where the game is going, so, attack down those flanks with vigor and take advantage, I suppose.

Do you guys agree with this, or am I off my rocker here?

Here's a video showing what I mean, apologies for the crap quality:

https://streamable.com/khe7tg

The player doing the closing down here has some of the lowest mental and physical attributes you'll find in La Liga. He's slow and not very good at reading the game. Despite that, he's able to close down like he's Roy Keane in his prime!  I think this shows how OP pressing is right now, particularly in the middle of the pitch.

Here's another example:

https://streamable.com/ehuna0

I know the graphical representation isn't what we should be judging, because ultimately the match engine is a series of "dice rolls" that are weighted according to attributes and whatever, but this is just absurd.

Like this does not happen in real football, and it kind of ruins the experience for me. Herrera just runs through Koke like he isn't even there. Koke is a world class midfielder! This happens all the time, to all sorts of players in this match engine. It's just so utterly unrealistic and, in my opinion, broken.

How is anyone supposed to use the middle of the field effectively when the press is THAT effective?

Ok but Ander Herrera has insane stats in Aggression, Anticipation, Determination, Work rate and is very good at Tackling, and has good Bravery. Of course he's gonna be winning balls like that. What was your teams mentality here? Your passing range? Your tempo? What was Koke's role in this match? You can also see in this second clip, that your opponents press was most likely triggered when your midfielders got the ball, so maybe Koke just wasn't expecting the press. Also the striker is running like a madman at him, maybe he was trying to evaluate what to do. People do tend to panic a little when someone comes charging at you. Maybe he didn't notice Herrera coming, because he was distracted by the other playing running at him at full speed. Also he got like barely a second on the ball before there were two players on him, very tough to not make a mistake in a situation like that.

And even if despite all of that he was supposed to do the right thing here and pass it back quickly to a safe option, It could have just been a "bad" day for him. Players make mistakes all the time, even world class ones.

And if you look at real life, even small teams have had great success when pressing very aggressively againts opponents who like to control possession. But it does come at a risk, a disorganized team shape and defence. So they leave a lot of space to exploit. If they press you centrally, then they will probably leave a lot of space on the flanks. Thats why your players will funnel the ball to those areas. If you need to make a quick decision of where to pass the ball, before the opponent presses you down, the simplest option is to pass it to the guy with the most space in front of him i.e. a fullback or a winger. The opponent will then either hunt down your winger and leave space in the middle or try to compact the middle of the pitch, leaving your winger to go down the flank and try to cross it in.

For example:

 

They are defending very narrow here, so we naturally move the ball to the flanks to my LB who is on a FBa role. My midfielder can hold off their press (they gave him plenty of time to receive the ball, turn with it and find a teammate) and the diamond we create on the flank helps us cut them open. You can see that we always have a spare man in very close proximity and we also play on an attacking mentality which means my players will try the more riskier passes. I also have shorter passing and higher tempo ticked here.

I'm sure there are some problems with the ME, but a lot of it also depends on your roles, duties, team mentality, passing range, player ability of both your players and the opposition, tempo, width, available passing options...

I'm not saying the ME doesn't need tweaking, but this is a complex game and there are a lot of factors to consider.. Not everything can be perfect all the time, even when you have the best players in the world.

 

It's frustrating when you're trying to do certain things in the game and it's not working and usually the simplest thing to do is complain about the ME, but It's a complex engine and a lot of variables come into play.

I mean all I just said could be bullcrap, that's just how I think about it.

[ElJefe4]

I definitely agree that there's a lack of play in the middle of the pitch. This is shown by the above pass map, this is only from one half of football in which we completed 388 passes, yet look at the lack of interaction between de Jong (#21) and Pedri (#8). When I click on the combinations drop down which (assuming that it is accurate) shows the amount of passes between 2 players, de Jong and Pedri aren't even listed on there.

So is the game telling me that in a possession heavy system (57% possession away from home), that my 2 central midfield players didn't pass to each other once? Really?

If you look at de Jong's pass map...

Most of those passes seem to be going either inside and backwards, probably to Busquets or a centre back, or out to a full back or winger. There's very few that go inside and square or forward.

Edited January 21, 2023 by ElJefe4

[Guest]

Again I would respectfully disagree with that and this is from my Nice save.  I am not saying there isn't an issue but I don't believe that is proof, again and this is personal to me I would be very disappointed with De Jongs 29 passes and trying to resolve that issue.

And this is Thurams pass map.

These are the passing links between my central midfielders.

[bababooey]

21 hours ago, Crazy_Ivan said:

In both those clips Koke is dawdling on the ball albeit he doesn't have much time but his attributes are good enough that he shouldn't be doing what he's doing. and I would pull my hair out if he was doing that in my save. Personally I'm seeing tactical issues in both clips and I don't see any of this behaviour in any of my saves.

The first pic Koke has limited options but he still has two wide open people to pass too so why doesn't he do that? That for me is the first thing that would bug meThe second thing for me is that there is a ton of unoccupied real estate it doesn't look like a setup where a passing team can play through the press, there is a lot wrong there for me.

 

This second clip Koke has one option open to pass to when he receives the pass which is the right winger and again when I look at his options he doesn't have any because players aren't in a great spot to help pass through the press. The other CM would be far more useful in that open space, the FB would be far more useful either where he is or where I have drawn the box, instead he is marauding up in to the same space the left winger is taking up providing no option whatsoever put to try and hoof a ball out wide. If those two players are where I have drawn the boxes Galarreta and co are just chasing shadows while your players pass through them. 

 

 

Look at how my players are situated for my first goal against the league favorites and most press heavy teams I have faced. Much easier to play through them when these are the passing options each player has. I'm not saying this isn't an issue but I certainly am not seeing anything like you're describing.

 

 

Thank you for the detailed reply! 

I agree with your first point about Koke sitting on the ball too long. 100% agree.

In that first image, we have 3 forwards set up as: IF-A, F9, and IF-A 

The reason being, is that I wanted to exploit the channels against a team that I thought would be a little more aggressive at home.

I also thought that Koke's midfield partner would have been in a more advanced position to help break the lines and play through the middle, but in this instance, that wasn't happening.

 

In the second image, we are playing at home with a trio in midfield of:  DM-S, AP-S and MEZ-A.  

The first player who gets closed down in that clip is actually my F9 who has dropped quite deep.

My argument here is that De Galarreta shouldn't be able to close down 2 players THAT quickly. Again, this could be a problem with the graphics perhaps not representing what is going on under the hood properly.

But De Galarreta has 11 aggression, 9 pace, 11 accel, 7 strength, 8 bravery, 10 tackling. Those are second division attributes at best, imho, for being a player who wins the ball back effectively.

This is where I think people can either go one of two ways: 

- Option A: the pressing mechanisms are out of whack

- Option B: the graphics dont really represent what's happening properly (ex. it looks like he's closing down two players unrealistically fast, but maybe he isnt really)

[bababooey]

22 hours ago, breze77 said:

Ok but Ander Herrera has insane stats in Aggression, Anticipation, Determination, Work rate and is very good at Tackling, and has good Bravery. Of course he's gonna be winning balls like that. What was your teams mentality here? Your passing range? Your tempo? What was Koke's role in this match? You can also see in this second clip, that your opponents press was most likely triggered when your midfielders got the ball, so maybe Koke just wasn't expecting the press. Also the striker is running like a madman at him, maybe he was trying to evaluate what to do. People do tend to panic a little when someone comes charging at you. Maybe he didn't notice Herrera coming, because he was distracted by the other playing running at him at full speed. Also he got like barely a second on the ball before there were two players on him, very tough to not make a mistake in a situation like that.

And even if despite all of that he was supposed to do the right thing here and pass it back quickly to a safe option, It could have just been a "bad" day for him. Players make mistakes all the time, even world class ones.

And if you look at real life, even small teams have had great success when pressing very aggressively againts opponents who like to control possession. But it does come at a risk, a disorganized team shape and defence. So they leave a lot of space to exploit. If they press you centrally, then they will probably leave a lot of space on the flanks. Thats why your players will funnel the ball to those areas. If you need to make a quick decision of where to pass the ball, before the opponent presses you down, the simplest option is to pass it to the guy with the most space in front of him i.e. a fullback or a winger. The opponent will then either hunt down your winger and leave space in the middle or try to compact the middle of the pitch, leaving your winger to go down the flank and try to cross it in.

For example:

 

They are defending very narrow here, so we naturally move the ball to the flanks to my LB who is on a FBa role. My midfielder can hold off their press (they gave him plenty of time to receive the ball, turn with it and find a teammate) and the diamond we create on the flank helps us cut them open. You can see that we always have a spare man in very close proximity and we also play on an attacking mentality which means my players will try the more riskier passes. I also have shorter passing and higher tempo ticked here.

I'm sure there are some problems with the ME, but a lot of it also depends on your roles, duties, team mentality, passing range, player ability of both your players and the opposition, tempo, width, available passing options...

I'm not saying the ME doesn't need tweaking, but this is a complex game and there are a lot of factors to consider.. Not everything can be perfect all the time, even when you have the best players in the world.

 

It's frustrating when you're trying to do certain things in the game and it's not working and usually the simplest thing to do is complain about the ME, but It's a complex engine and a lot of variables come into play.

I mean all I just said could be bullcrap, that's just how I think about it.

 

I think you're on to something here actually. What's interesting is that we've played almost an entire season without using "counter" despite being adept at winning the ball quickly in the middle and spreading it wide.

BTW, how did you upload that video on here? The file size limit is really limiting, so I'd love to know how you did it. 

Thanks !

[bababooey]

10 hours ago, Crazy_Ivan said:

Again I would respectfully disagree with that and this is from my Nice save.  I am not saying there isn't an issue but I don't believe that is proof, again and this is personal to me I would be very disappointed with De Jongs 29 passes and trying to resolve that issue.

And this is Thurams pass map.

These are the passing links between my central midfielders.

Just curious, what are your role and duty choices in that midfield trio? That passing map looks lovely!

[breze77]

1 hour ago, bababooey said:

 

I think you're on to something here actually. What's interesting is that we've played almost an entire season without using "counter" despite being adept at winning the ball quickly in the middle and spreading it wide.

BTW, how did you upload that video on here? The file size limit is really limiting, so I'd love to know how you did it. 

Thanks !

I captured the video with ShareX and then used this site to compress the video: https://www.veed.io/tools/video-compressor/mp4-compressor

You could probably do it in in a video editor as well.

[bababooey]

1 hour ago, breze77 said:

I captured the video with ShareX and then used this site to compress the video: https://www.veed.io/tools/video-compressor/mp4-compressor

You could probably do it in in a video editor as well.

Ah okay, thank you!

[ElJefe4]

On 21/01/2023 at 05:39, Crazy_Ivan said:

Again I would respectfully disagree with that and this is from my Nice save.  I am not saying there isn't an issue but I don't believe that is proof, again and this is personal to me I would be very disappointed with De Jongs 29 passes and trying to resolve that issue.

And this is Thurams pass map.

These are the passing links between my central midfielders.

 

That's really interesting, thanks for sharing! 

My midfield 3 is currently set up a DM (S), CM (S) and AP (A). TIs are play out of defence, shorter passing and work ball into box. Positive team mentality and the normal width (off the top of my head I believe it says fairly wide). Not sure why I'm getting a completely different outcome to what I'm looking for but at least now I know it can be achieved. 

[Sunstrikuuu]

I'm playing a low-league England save right now using the same tactic I used in FM22.  Very tippy-tappy, short passes, all that stuff.  It's possible that the player are just that much worse than what I had in the French 5th division last year, but I'm averaging 25% as many passes as I did last year (unless the analytics are totally busted).  The average pass distance is a lot longer, which is odd because both the central midfielders and wingbacks are making fewer attacking runs.  It's still relatively effective and has taken a while to bed-in in every save I've done with it, so I'm not too worried about results, but it's much less pretty to look at.

[CaptCanuck]

On 20/01/2023 at 16:45, ElJefe4 said:

 

I definitely agree that there's a lack of play in the middle of the pitch. This is shown by the above pass map, this is only from one half of football in which we completed 388 passes, yet look at the lack of interaction between de Jong (#21) and Pedri (#8). When I click on the combinations drop down which (assuming that it is accurate) shows the amount of passes between 2 players, de Jong and Pedri aren't even listed on there.

So is the game telling me that in a possession heavy system (57% possession away from home), that my 2 central midfield players didn't pass to each other once? Really?...

There is a bug in the passing combinations drop-down. It only scrolls so far at once, so you have to select a pairing at the bottom of the list visible to you and then it enables you to keep scrolling. Stupid? Yes ofc, but we all know how many things we need to work around in FM, this is just one more... OK actually two more as while the total count is accurate the pairing count is only 1 direction, not both :-)