Best Approach for Beating the Gegenpress?

[gunnerfan]

Playing as Celta Vigo, I had a great first full season. But coming down the stretch, my toughest opponents to beat played the gegenpress. It wasn't a problem during most of the season, but for some reason, I saw it more frequently near the end and it became tougher to play against. In the last two matches of the season, I lost to Athletico Bilbao (0-1) and drew at Athletico Madrid (0-0). The final match was very strange, in that we dominated possession playing a tiki-taka game in a 4-1-2-3, but were outshot 17-2. Most of AM's shots were way off target, which suggests that the AI was likely playing Shoot-on-sight. I started the match with a high LOE and very high defensive line, but pulled that back to mid-block mid-way through the first half.

So, as my save heads into the off-season, I'm just looking for general suggestions on how other FMers take on the gegenpress.

[bababooey]

2 hours ago, gunnerfan said:

Playing as Celta Vigo, I had a great first full season. But coming down the stretch, my toughest opponents to beat played the gegenpress. It wasn't a problem during most of the season, but for some reason, I saw it more frequently near the end and it became tougher to play against. In the last two matches of the season, I lost to Athletico Bilbao (0-1) and drew at Athletico Madrid (0-0). The final match was very strange, in that we dominated possession playing a tiki-taka game in a 4-1-2-3, but were outshot 17-2. Most of AM's shots were way off target, which suggests that the AI was likely playing Shoot-on-sight. I started the match with a high LOE and very high defensive line, but pulled that back to mid-block mid-way through the first half.

So, as my save heads into the off-season, I'm just looking for general suggestions on how other FMers take on the gegenpress.

This is a tricky thing. I personally find pressing to be overpowered (but this is NOT an informed opinion, and others may disagree with me on this), but there are some things you can try...

I think what makes facing the gengenpress difficult for most people is that it completely disrupts your ability to keep hold of the ball, AND it looks to hit you on the counter the second you turn it over. So it's like getting hit with both barrels.

What I would advise is, please post your tactical set up in its entirety, and then people can make more informed suggestions.

Also, perhaps post a few screenshots of what was happening in those matches where the gegenpress hurt your team badly.  Ex: where did you most often lose the ball? did your players have enough passing options under pressure? etc.

 

[gunnerfan]

Here is my tactical setup and lineup for the season-ending match with Athletico Madrid. I haven't posted screen shots of the match because in going over the hughlights, I realized that a lot of the problems were only partly due to the defensive system. Most of the turnovers came from poor first touches or weak passes. Aspas (playing as an IF/S on the right) and Viega (playing as a BTB) were repeat offenders. And I only played Aspas because he is retiring and it was his last match. Looking at the tactic, I'm thinking we should have played wider, with more direct passing and at a higher tempo.

 

[CARRERA]

I would say you need to play more vertically. pressing teams move up the pitch and open up space behind their defensive line and especially behind the first and second defender, as they are trying to close you down. If you manage to play through the lines, your players will have a good chance to break the press and turn it to your advantage. Playing out from the back is very difficult against a high press unless you outclass the opposition, but they won’t press you high then anyways. 

Edited January 23, 2023 by CARRERA

[Gruf]

As above, slightly more vertical is the aim, dribble less, especially guys in the middle, play down wings, pass into space, as most of the time they are condensing the space and hit early  crosses. Make sure your wingers are nippy, I have a pretty crap winger in most respects but he has 17 acc and 15 speed, lob a ball in front of him and watch him fly, and also, make sure the central midfield have good first touch, otherwise they will get mullered.

[ejleal]

23 hours ago, gunnerfan said:

Playing as Celta Vigo, I had a great first full season. But coming down the stretch, my toughest opponents to beat played the gegenpress. It wasn't a problem during most of the season, but for some reason, I saw it more frequently near the end and it became tougher to play against. In the last two matches of the season, I lost to Athletico Bilbao (0-1) and drew at Athletico Madrid (0-0). The final match was very strange, in that we dominated possession playing a tiki-taka game in a 4-1-2-3, but were outshot 17-2. Most of AM's shots were way off target, which suggests that the AI was likely playing Shoot-on-sight. I started the match with a high LOE and very high defensive line, but pulled that back to mid-block mid-way through the first half.

So, as my save heads into the off-season, I'm just looking for general suggestions on how other FMers take on the gegenpress.

The problem you might be facing is lack of space. You are playing with a very high defensive line and while that seems to be good defensively , it might be denying you some space to attack. When you face teams pressing teams, this is aggravated because since your team is compressed, they can more easily force turnovers.

You can try to change very high dline to high dline, when you face those teams. If you feel you are getting many balls over the top with this change you can add the drop deeper instruction.

 

 

[Gruf]

His games must resemble a medieval battlefield with bodies strewn around a muddy section, specifically in each others narrow engagement box in the middle of the pitch

Draw them on, drop deeper so there is even more space in behind them so your wingers can frolic in the open space beyond

Edited January 23, 2023 by Gruf

[gunnerfan]

Thanks for the suggestions. Looking forward to putting them into practice.

[bababooey]

Wait, this says you're in first place in La Liga on May 20th, 2024?  You must be doing fantastic if this is the case!

[gunnerfan]

19 hours ago, bababooey said:

Wait, this says you're in first place in La Liga on May 20th, 2024?  You must be doing fantastic if this is the case!

Yes, we won La Liga, then lost to Bilboa and drew against Athletico Madrid, both times facing the gegenpress. I had some excellent luck with very few injuries and I picked up Ivan Azon at the January transfer window, thinking he would be a nice prospect for the future but he turned out to be a beast. 

[DimitrisLar]

In general, my default changes are:

a) up the tempo, you will circulate the ball faster in the build up so the opponents runs will be mistimed.

b) If they are compact in the middle of the park then change roles to make your players dribble more or press the run at defence option. If you've seen the All or Nothing with Juventus Pirlo was saying that Roma was escaping their middle traps with their high technique players by dribbling.

[bababooey]

1 hour ago, DimitrisLar said:

In general, my default changes are:

a) up the tempo, you will circulate the ball faster in the build up so the opponents runs will be mistimed.

b) If they are compact in the middle of the park then change roles to make your players dribble more or press the run at defence option. If you've seen the All or Nothing with Juventus Pirlo was saying that Roma was escaping their middle traps with their high technique players by dribbling.

This feels like excellent advice. It may also be wise to instruct those guys who are dribbling more, to dribble towards the wide areas. This way, you might pull the defense apart chasing after you.

[permanentquandary]

Aside from playing more direct or vertical you can consider changing how much your team exerts effort throughout each match, conserving your energy early on. Your pressing opponent will often run out of steam, whereas your team can still have gas in the tank. If you're going to take that approach you can try to recruit and select with "keeping hold of the ball" in mind by targeting players with high balance, first touch and strength, subbing on players with high speed and dribbling later in matches. Then in general you're going to want your team to be good at moving off the ball so they make themselves available for passes.

I don't think you necessarily need to play with a high tempo. That would be counterproductive to this idea of conserving energy. I think quick transitions and direct play is often misinterpreted as higher tempo, when tempo should instead be considered as how long each player looks to keep hold of the ball and make decisions about where to play it next. Often, keeping the ball longer is going to make it hard for your team to find passing options but it's also going to draw the opposition away from their positions when they are closing down heavily. If you are playing the ball quickly, the opposition doesn't necessarily have the time to leave their positions and the balls you are playing might not be efficient - they could instead be easy simple passes that don't do anything, or they could be bad choices as a result of the player having poor decision making. So to reach quick direct transitions that are well considered and efficient, you could play with lower tempo but direct passing, and couple that with a structured shape by reducing the number of support duties you have in use.

To be very honest I have no evidence that this would work in practice on FM, but it does work in real life.

Edited January 25, 2023 by permanentquandary

[DimitrisLar]

11 hours ago, permanentquandary said:

Aside from playing more direct or vertical you can consider changing how much your team exerts effort throughout each match, conserving your energy early on. Your pressing opponent will often run out of steam, whereas your team can still have gas in the tank. If you're going to take that approach you can try to recruit and select with "keeping hold of the ball" in mind by targeting players with high balance, first touch and strength, subbing on players with high speed and dribbling later in matches. Then in general you're going to want your team to be good at moving off the ball so they make themselves available for passes.

Making a team of two kind of players seems too much for the time i spent on FM.  It is though a very Italian like managing of a game and probably would work.

 

11 hours ago, permanentquandary said:

I don't think you necessarily need to play with a high tempo. That would be counterproductive to this idea of conserving energy. I think quick transitions and direct play is often misinterpreted as higher tempo, when tempo should instead be considered as how long each player looks to keep hold of the ball and make decisions about where to play it next. Often, keeping the ball longer is going to make it hard for your team to find passing options but it's also going to draw the opposition away from their positions when they are closing down heavily. If you are playing the ball quickly, the opposition doesn't necessarily have the time to leave their positions and the balls you are playing might not be efficient - they could instead be easy simple passes that don't do anything, or they could be bad choices as a result of the player having poor decision making. So to reach quick direct transitions that are well considered and efficient, you could play with lower tempo but direct passing, and couple that with a structured shape by reducing the number of support duties you have in use.

To be very honest I have no evidence that this would work in practice on FM, but it does work in real life.

If someone doesn't have players with the attributes you are calling out, combined with positional rotations that help him build up properly, then shouldn't worry about pressing. If i didn't have players like that i'd be just a fool who goes with build up play. If the rotations are contracting the opposite system then, hand in hand with tempo, destroy every attempt of pressing. I had done it in my recent saves for decades. I started a post here but didn;t finish it with how you can use different roles in one system to counter each opponent's system and pressing. 

In general it's not just a matter of philosophy against philosophy but also system vs system. Systems show every manager the first sign of strength and weakness of every team. And nowadays when we see systems, it indicates the spaces a team occupy in their first or thereabouts phase of defence. If you use properly a BBM against 4-2-3-1 and especially in the side of their DLP you'll probably make him score. If you use an IF against a 4-3-3, the same. a 10 like Kaka against a 4-4-2 the same. Open the spaces for them and feed them and you'll have CCC every game on and on.

Edited January 25, 2023 by DimitrisLar

[Cloud9]

On 22/01/2023 at 06:19, gunnerfan said:

Playing as Celta Vigo, I had a great first full season. But coming down the stretch, my toughest opponents to beat played the gegenpress. It wasn't a problem during most of the season, but for some reason, I saw it more frequently near the end and it became tougher to play against. In the last two matches of the season, I lost to Athletico Bilbao (0-1) and drew at Athletico Madrid (0-0). The final match was very strange, in that we dominated possession playing a tiki-taka game in a 4-1-2-3, but were outshot 17-2. Most of AM's shots were way off target, which suggests that the AI was likely playing Shoot-on-sight. I started the match with a high LOE and very high defensive line, but pulled that back to mid-block mid-way through the first half.

So, as my save heads into the off-season, I'm just looking for general suggestions on how other FMers take on the gegenpress.

Having a really quick player is key in an AF, IW, SS, IF role. Put pressure on their high backline and turn on pass into space, keep them from pinning you. When you break the press they're super vulnerable, if you watched the champions league final of Madrid vs Liverpool think of Vinicius jr vs Trent. Playing wide is perfect for stretching the pitch to unleash super quick players. Set your line of engagement low enough that there's space for them to run into. 

You can also try to weather the storm and hit them in the last 20 minutes when they're super tired, boxing style.

If you have press resistant players In the middle of the park then you can play less direct.

 

Basically when defeating a specific tactic the thing to ask yourself is where is the space? Attack that space. If there's space in behind, like in a high press, quick clinical players will rip them apart.

Edited January 27, 2023 by Cloud9

[gunnerfan]

4 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

Having a really quick player is key in an AF, IW, SS, IF role. Put pressure on their high backline and turn on pass into space, keep them from pinning you. When you break the press they're super vulnerable, if you watched the champions league final of Madrid vs Liverpool think of Vinicius jr vs Trent. Playing wide is perfect for stretching the pitch to unleash super quick players. Set your line of engagement low enough that there's space for them to run into. 

You can also try to weather the storm and hit them in the last 20 minutes when they're super tired, boxing style.

If you have press resistant players In the middle of the park then you can play less direct.

 

Basically when defeating a specific tactic the thing to ask yourself is where is the space? Attack that space. If there's space in behind, like in a high press, quick clinical players will rip them apart.

Excellent advice. By "press resistant players", I assume you mean high marks in anticipation, composure, and vision?

[Nick_CB]

I'm on FM21, and as you all know it's a tough work to beat gegenpress. However my tactical approach is to attack like the managers said above, vertical vertical vertical.
I have a limited squad for Werder Bremen, but qualified for the Champions League. Attack with few shots but LETHAL

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 27, 2023 by Nick_CB

[Cloud9]

8 hours ago, gunnerfan said:

Excellent advice. By "press resistant players", I assume you mean high marks in anticipation, composure, and vision?

• Anticipation & composure definitely, first touch as well, and bravery (esp If they're tackling hard your players).
• I'd also take into consideration dribbling, balance, and pace. If they press a quick, skilled dribbler he'll have a field day. 
• Special mention for strength and decision making (you won't get bullied and decision making is key to any passage of play your trying to pull off)

I wouldn't necessarily value vision for beating a press unless they had the technical skills/traits to launch a counter attack 

Edit: I'd looking of the passing ability of your defensive unit as well (a press will target your weak links) if you've got someone exceptionally poor at laying the ball off he can put your other players in trouble.

Edited January 27, 2023 by Cloud9

[Cloud9]

 

On 22/01/2023 at 08:26, bababooey said:

This is a tricky thing. I personally find pressing to be overpowered (but this is NOT an informed opinion, and others may disagree with me on this), but there are some things you can try...

I think what makes facing the gengenpress difficult for most people is that it completely disrupts your ability to keep hold of the ball, AND it looks to hit you on the counter the second you turn it over. So it's like getting hit with both barrels.

What I would advise is, please post your tactical set up in its entirety, and then people can make more informed suggestions.

Also, perhaps post a few screenshots of what was happening in those matches where the gegenpress hurt your team badly.  Ex: where did you most often lose the ball? did your players have enough passing options under pressure? etc.

 

A side note on vision and breaking the press: you can select passing style to "short" in the tactical overview and then go into the PI's of players that have the vision and skill to execute through balls and tell them to pass more direct. 

Edited January 27, 2023 by Cloud9