Template Gegenpress vs. Tiki-Taka vs. Route One - depending on club reputation?

[danej]

So, which one is better of these three template tactics:

1. Gegenpress 4-3-3 DM wide

2. Tiki-Taka 4-3-3 DM wide

3. Route One, either 4-4-2 or 4-3-3 DM wide

 

I don't want to consider any other tactic. Partially because I find tactics boring and want to spend as little time on it as possible. Partially as part of my save restrictions, in order to not use any plugin super OP tactics.

 

I know from experience that the Gegenpress tactic (no. 1) works very well, at least when your club has a club reputation between 2.5 - 3.5 stars which is all I have tried so far (played Championship Manager back in the day, but have only played newer versions since FM21, I have probably only played 15 seasons or so on FM in total).

 

And I probably won't consider any of the other when I manage a club with club reputation in that range (2.5 - 3.5 start). Never change a winning team.

 

However, two questions:

a. Perhaps I should consider using option no. (Route One) if/when I try lower league management? From what I hear, Route One might be the best tactic when you have a crap team. But if so, how bad should the team be, before Route One is better than Gegenpressing? Roughly a club reputation of 2 stars? 1.5? 1? 0.5? (or whatever repuation the worst team in the Vanarama North/South has, I don't know).

 

b. Perhaps I should consider using the Tiki-Taka when I manage a really strong team? Because it might look cool, and it might be at least as good as the Gegenpressing when you manage a top side? If yes, how good should your team be before you should ditch the Gegenpressing and opt for Tiki-Taka instead? Roughly club reputation 4 start, or only at 4.5 stars (I don't believe any teams have a club reputation higher than 4.5)?

Edited February 8, 2023 by danej

[Cloud9]

55 minutes ago, danej said:

So, which one is better of these three template tactics:

1. Gegenpress 4-3-3 DM wide

2. Tiki-Taka 4-3-3 DM wide

3. Route One, either 4-4-2 or 4-3-3 DM wide

 

I don't want to consider any other tactic. Partially because I find tactics boring and want to spend as little time on it as possible. Partially as part of my save restrictions, in order to not use any plugin super OP tactics.

 

I know from experience that the Gegenpress tactic (no. 1) works very well, at least when your club has a club reputation between 2.5 - 3.5 stars which is all I have tried so far (played Championship Manager back in the day, but have only played newer versions since FM21, I have probably only played 15 seasons or so on FM in total).

 

And I probably won't consider any of the other when I manage a club with club reputation in that range (2.5 - 3.5 start). Never change a winning team.

 

However, two questions:

a. Perhaps I should consider using option no. (Route One) if/when I try lower league management? From what I hear, Route One might be the best tactic when you have a crap team. But if so, how bad should the team be, before Route One is better than Gegenpressing? Roughly a club reputation of 2 stars? 1.5? 1? 0.5? (or whatever repuation the worst team in the Vanarama North/South has, I don't know).

 

b. Perhaps I should consider using the Tiki-Taka when I manage a really strong team? Because it might look cool, and it might be at least as good as the Gegenpressing when you manage a top side? If yes, how good should your team be before you should ditch the Gegenpressing and opt for Tiki-Taka instead? Roughly club reputation 4 start, or only at 4.5 stars (I don't believe any teams have a club reputation higher than 4.5)?

I wouldn't worry at all about a clubs reputation & just look at the squad when you take over the club. If your players are poor, playing tiki taka will be difficult, if your players can't run you can't gegenpress, and if your boys aren't tall root one isn't a great plan.

You'll want to create a tactic that best suits the personal you have, not the reputation. 

Edited February 4, 2023 by Cloud9

[danej]

9 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

I wouldn't worry at all about a clubs reputation & just look at the squad when you take over the club. If your players are poor, playing tiki taka will be difficult, if your players can't run you can't gegenpress, and if your boys aren't tall root one isn't a great plan.

You'll want to create a tactic that best suits the personal you have, not the reputation. 

I would think that this is generally good advice. However, as mentioned I prefer to spend as little time as tactics as possible. I barely know anything about tactics, except that Gegenpressing has always worked very well for me (when I rotate a lot). And I don't intend to learn much about tactics either  Prefer to be in many ways ignorant at play the game in a very suboptimal manner as the game is rather easy in any case, too easy for my taste.

So I was looking for rules of thumb.

On second though, I see that this input is also generally useful. I never thought of the attribute aspects that you mention, running attributes and height. It makes sense. Thanks.

Still, this input raises a further question in my mind: Can even a poor Vanarama North/South team succeed with Gegenpressing, as long as the players have decent core attributes? I imagine that stamina and work rate are the most important ones.

[Cloud9]

12 minutes ago, danej said:

I would think that this is generally good advice. However, as mentioned I prefer to spend as little time as tactics as possible. I barely know anything about tactics, except that Gegenpressing has always worked very well for me (when I rotate a lot). And I don't intend to learn much about tactics either  Prefer to be in many ways ignorant at play the game in a very suboptimal manner as the game is rather easy in any case, too easy for my taste.

So I was looking for rules of thumb.

On second though, I see that this input is also generally useful. I never thought of the attribute aspects that you mention, running attributes and height. It makes sense. Thanks.

Still, this input raises a further question in my mind: Can even a poor Vanarama North/South team succeed with Gegenpressing, as long as the players have decent core attributes? I imagine that stamina and work rate are the most important ones.

For lower league football, a target forward and a long ball can be very effective.

Tiki Taka and Gegenpress will both require higher quality teams with more specific squad building, if you're going to play route one football all you really need is a good (tall) target man. Youre going to play extremely direct meaning most of your players will be skipped by hoofing it upfield each time.

Edited February 5, 2023 by Cloud9

[danej]

41 minutes ago, Cloud9 said:

For lower league football, a target forward and a long ball can be very effective.

Tiki Taka and Gegenpress will both require higher quality teams with more specific squad building, if you're going to play route one football all you really need is a good (tall) target man. Youre going to play extremely direct meaning most of your players will be skipped by hoofing it upfield each time.

Sounds like Route One (from the mentioned three options) then is probably the better option for most teams with club reputation at 1.5-2 start or lower (with players at a corresponding level). I imagine that it is rather easy to find some good and cheap target men no matter what level you are at.

[danej]

By the way, it goes without saying that I buy/sell players according to the tactic I want to use. So sooner or later, my squad will be well suited to whichever of those tactics I go for.

I imagine that the main risk is to opt for Gegenpressing or Tiki-Taka too soon. Before I have good enough players. Before I have enough money to buy good enough players.

Although I would still like more rules of thumb as to what might be the threshold for ditching Route One or Gegenpress and switch to one of the fancier tactics.

I guess there is a hierarchy here:

Route One - easy. The simplest tactic. Can work with any team basically.

Gegenpress - medium complexity or slightly above. Works for most teams with at least a 2.5 star club reputation. Perhaps somewhat lower as well, but I have personally no experience manager teams with a club reputation below 2.5 stars.

Tiki-Taka - maximum complexity. I imagine that Tiki-Taka is usually inferior to Gegenpress unless you have a very strong squad, corresponding to a club reputation of at least 4 stars, if not 4.5.

[BadAss88]

Club reputation has nothing to do with the capability of your players being able to play gegenpress, tiki-taka or route one..

If you want to spent as less time as possible on tactics just go for gegenpress

[danej]

28 minutes ago, BadAss88 said:

Club reputation has nothing to do with the capability of your players being able to play gegenpress, tiki-taka or route one..

I know. If you read my posts carefully, you would know that it was a figure of speach. What matters is the quality of the squad of course.

The question remains. Whether one should consider another of the three options if ones squad is below or above a certain level of quality. And if yes, what is the cut off, how to phrase it more specifically, more actionable.

[kingjericho]

To put it very directly in regards to the OP:

Gegenpress is the ones who generally works better in FM's match engine. However be wary that tired players in a gegenpress have a serious effect and the team is much likely to concede late goals.

[CARRERA]

Usually an active approach where your team is trying to dominante and create something is more successful. This should be your first choice. Sometimes however, it can be beneficial to switch to a more passive approach and soak up pressure and try to create something on the break. This is especially useful if you feel like you can’t dominate the other team or if the other team is overly aggressive and regularity overcommits on their attacking moves.

Your first choice should be Gegenpress / TikiTaka (or some adjusted versions) and Route One should be your situational 

[Aoyao]

Which is the long ball?

Which is the short pass?

Which is the direct ball?

[danej]

19 hours ago, kingjericho said:

To put it very directly in regards to the OP:

Gegenpress is the ones who generally works better in FM's match engine. However be wary that tired players in a gegenpress have a serious effect and the team is much likely to concede late goals.

Yeah I have pretty much the same impression. Although I at the same time I don't know. I have only used Gegenpressing so far. It has always worked very well, as long as I rotate a lot, which I always do.

I guess I should just stick with Gegenpressing then, no matter how horrible or how world class my players are. When I don't really want to switch unless one of the other two options are vastly better in certain scenarios.

[danej]

16 hours ago, CARRERA said:

Usually an active approach where your team is trying to dominante and create something is more successful. This should be your first choice. Sometimes however, it can be beneficial to switch to a more passive approach and soak up pressure and try to create something on the break. This is especially useful if you feel like you can’t dominate the other team or if the other team is overly aggressive and regularity overcommits on their attacking moves.

Your first choice should be Gegenpress / TikiTaka (or some adjusted versions) and Route One should be your situational 

When I think more about it + what you write made me think - perhaps there isn't a great difference between Gegenpressing and Tiki-Taka. Both are high pressing, dominating styles. Perhaps Tiki-Taka is sort of like Gegenpressing but with some severe drawbacks that Gegenpressing doesn't have; that Tiki-Taka only works if you have world class technical players (in theory).

 

But again, I don't really know. Have barely used anything apart from Gegenpressing so far.

I imagine that Tiki-Taka works at least as well as Gegenpressing if you have a world class squad like Man City, Bayern, PSG, Man Utd etc. But I don't know. And perhaps it doesn't matter much either for a guy like me who pretty much hate tactics and want to touch it as little as possible, just want something that works and never have touch it again basically.

[kingjericho]

15 minutes ago, danej said:

Yeah I have pretty much the same impression. Although I at the same time I don't know. I have only used Gegenpressing so far. It has always worked very well, as long as I rotate a lot, which I always do.

I guess I should just stick with Gegenpressing then, no matter how horrible or how world class my players are. When I don't really want to switch unless one of the other two options are vastly better in certain scenarios.

This should interest you. As you can see other have used styles such as Fluid Counter Attack to good success.

 

Personally I often try the Wingplay style but it doesn't that well. I don't fully understand the use of a low block and overlaps in the team instructions.

[CARRERA]

1 hour ago, danej said:

I imagine that Tiki-Taka works at least as well as Gegenpressing if you have a world class squad like Man City, Bayern, PSG, Man Utd etc. But I don't know.

It's a myth that certain styles only work if your team is world class or super bad, or whatever. You always have to see it in relation to the league you play in and the other teams. If you compare it with real life and look at the 2nd or 3rd divison, there will also be teams which press high, teams which dominate the match with possession.
Of course, you may not achieve the level of City or Liverpool as they have better players.

[Johnny Ace]

Your ass man will suggest a few styles (templates) to pick from. Man City's templates are likely to be different to Liverpool's, so try and base it club by club rather than the reputation

If you want as simple as possible, I'd try out those 3 templates, pick which one you like the best or whichever fits your squad the best, then sign players and build your squad based off of that 

You could always tweak a few roles or TIs and if it goes South, you can just load the preset back up 

That's probably as straight forward as you'll get without having to mess around with tactics too much 

 

 

[danej]

On 07/02/2023 at 10:57, Johnny Ace said:

Your ass man will suggest a few styles (templates) to pick from. Man City's templates are likely to be different to Liverpool's, so try and base it club by club rather than the reputation

If you want as simple as possible, I'd try out those 3 templates, pick which one you like the best or whichever fits your squad the best, then sign players and build your squad based off of that 

You could always tweak a few roles or TIs and if it goes South, you can just load the preset back up 

That's probably as straight forward as you'll get without having to mess around with tactics too much 

 

 

I think this is very good advice. As are most of the posts here. Thanks.

At the same time I will add that the template Gegenpressing seems semi-OP in my experience. At least the 4-3-3 DM wide type which is more or less the only one I have used. This tactic has overperformed in every single save I have played, and in every or almost every season.

In any case I really like this advice. It could be interesting to try it out. Then I would also often try a new template tactic every time I start a new start, or switch to a new club. Could be interesting.

Edited February 8, 2023 by danej

[dalenichol]

Lots of solid advice so far, however to answer your question as directly as possible: 

1) Gegenpressing 443DM Wide. 


For my additional two cents:

I find Gegenpressing 4231 DM Wide - with the DM's switched to CM's to be the king for me so far. Gegenpressing stock tactics seem to be somewhat OP out of the box for me.

Like you, I don't necessarily enjoy tactics all that much as I generally tend to drop in and out of football and as a result really don't always understand the best way to make an effective tactic, so I will often just opt for a gegenpress default and fiddly a little bit if I feel like I need to (making roles a bit more simple if lower league, dropping from attacking/positive to balanced or whatever)

[danej]

1 hour ago, dalenichol said:

Lots of solid advice so far, however to answer your question as directly as possible: 

1) Gegenpressing 443DM Wide. 


For my additional two cents:

I find Gegenpressing 4231 DM Wide - with the DM's switched to CM's to be the king for me so far. Gegenpressing stock tactics seem to be somewhat OP out of the box for me.

Like you, I don't necessarily enjoy tactics all that much as I generally tend to drop in and out of football and as a result really don't always understand the best way to make an effective tactic, so I will often just opt for a gegenpress default and fiddly a little bit if I feel like I need to (making roles a bit more simple if lower league, dropping from attacking/positive to balanced or whatever)

Yes, exactly. Before FM23 I always used the template 4-2-3-1 Gegenpress. I don't think it works as well now that the two CM's are DM's instead. That is why my primary formation is now the 4-3-3 DM wide instead.