Carlo Ancelotti 442/433 Hybrid

[ElJefe4]

Hi guys,

After watching a few YouTube videos of some of the devastating counter attack goals scored by the likes of Ronaldo, Benzema and Bale, I've been trying to figure out the best way to recreate something that resembles the sort of 442/433 hybrid that Carlo Ancelotti used at Real Madrid in the mid 2010s.

I've been looking at a few sources of info on these tactics, for example: https://defendingwiththeball.wordpress.com/2014/04/30/carlo-ancelotti-shows-flexibility-again-with-442-shape/

Basic idea:

• Regroup and defend in a fairly narrow, compact, mid block 442.
• When in possession, create a sort of asymmetrical 433.
• Left midfielder moves infield, almost like a third central midfielder.
• Creates space for overlapping left back and striker that drifts into left channel.
• Right midfielder pushes up to form a front 3 (433 in possession).

My current problem though is that my midfield is too wide. 

 

As you can see from the above, the back 4 is quite narrow. The midfield 4, however, is very wide. I've circled my right and left midfielders and marked where I'd like them to be. The below picture (from the article linked above) shows the positions that I need them to be in.

Does anyone know how to achieve this? Once I have my defensive structure in place I will move on to the attacking shape. 

Any help would be appreciated.

Edited February 13, 2023 by ElJefe4

[CJ_Randell]

Can you post your full tactic so people can see where there may be an issue with roles/instructions? 

[ElJefe4]

 

Trying to keep it as simple as possible to begin with so kept the Team Instructions to a minimum.

As far as Player Instructions go:

• Ugarte holds position
• Diaz dribbles more, cuts inside with the ball and sits narrower
• Leao stays wider

[Lira95]

hace 1 hora, ElJefe4 dijo:

 

Trying to keep it as simple as possible to begin with so kept the Team Instructions to a minimum.

As far as Player Instructions go:

• Ugarte holds position
• Diaz dribbles more, cuts inside with the ball and sits narrower
• Leao stays wider

I've put my double pivot at DM strata, a wide playmaker and kept narrow in possession

[Cloud9]

13 hours ago, ElJefe4 said:

Trying to keep it as simple as possible to begin with so kept the Team Instructions to a minimum.

As far as Player Instructions go:

• Ugarte holds position
• Diaz dribbles more, cuts inside with the ball and sits narrower
• Leao stays wider

Cool setup, how do you get width on the right hand side? That's the only potential hangup I see at first glance.

[coach vahid]

Maybe it will help you...

 

 

 

[ElJefe4]

On 13/02/2023 at 18:14, Lira95 said:

I've put my double pivot at DM strata, a wide playmaker and kept narrow in possession

What differences do you see when the central midfielders are dropped down into the DM strata? I'm quite keen to have a flat and narrow 4 across midfield. Do you still have this? Thank you for the reply. 

12 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

Cool setup, how do you get width on the right hand side? That's the only potential hangup I see at first glance.

Thanks mate. It's been fine so far off the ball. Would like a bit more from the right winger in terms of moving higher up and linking up with the 'front 2'. I think that might come naturally when I get a more naturally attacking option for that position, preferably left footed.

3 hours ago, coach vahid said:

Maybe it will help you...

 

 

 

Much appreciated!

 

I've just played Dortmund at home in the Champions League. Went with a similar set up to the above. The changes were:

• Balanced Mentality - purely based on strength of opposition
• Higher Defensive Line - reduces gap between back and front. Trying to use some of those Sacchi principles that I'm sure have influenced Ancelotti.
• Fairly Narrow Team Width - again to reduce horizontal gaps. This is under the 'in possession' tab but I'm hoping by having those players in narrower positions, we will more compact when we lose the ball.

Average positions without the ball from the match:

Not sure why the full backs seem deeper than the centre backs but on the whole it looks narrow and very compact, which I am happy about. Diaz (#7) strangely slightly wider than Saelemaekers (#11). Might be something to do with Dortmund's set up.

And the average positions with the ball:

Again pretty good, only a couple of things to really note:

• Diaz still slightly wider than I would want him. I'd prefer to see him closer to the X.
• Ugarte (#4) slightly ahead of Tonali (#8) is strange considering it is Ugarte who is told to Hold Position. This might be because he players behind Leao (CF - A), whilst Tonali players behind CdK (DLF - S), which gives Tonali less room to move into. 

Ideally that space that Ugarte has pushed up slightly into is where Diaz would be playing. He did, however, score what turned out to be the winning goal. So I'm not complaining too much.

 

Edited February 14, 2023 by ElJefe4

[ElJefe4]

Tried something a bit different in an effort to get the desired shape in possession, whilst still looking to defend in a 442...

Average Positions:

 

Still defending in a narrow 442. Diaz is being used as a Mezzala (Support) with the Mark Position PI on the opposition RM slot.

 

Led to a nice counter attack goal!

 

Edited February 14, 2023 by ElJefe4

[ElJefe4]

Unfortunately the MCL Mezzala experiment ultimately failed. Despite the PIs, it wasn't possible to safely defend our left hand side.

I've instead changed to an asymmetrical formation:

Few notes on this shape that I wanted to make. More for my own benefit than thinking anyone is following the tactical direction I'm taking 

Despite Diaz being nominally positioned higher than Messias, we are still able to achieve the desired 433 shape in possession with Diaz joining the midfield and Messias pushing higher.

I'd previously struggled to see my left midfielder tucking inside to form a 3. He was pretty much always staying too high and wide. I've found that not having a player positioned directly inside him seems to encourage him to move infield more often.

In order to really replicate a compact mid block 442, both wide midfielders have the PI to Mark Position on ML and MR respectively. I also use OIs such as never triggering a press on opposition goalkeepers and centre backs. As a result we often invite the ball into midfield or out wide. This helps us to draw opposition out slightly, giving us more space to counter into once we do win the ball back.

The results so far have been positive. Room for improvement of course, I'd never profess to being the best tactician around, but I've been really pleased with our results. For the calendar year 2023 we are currently on P22, W16, D5, L1, GF 40, GA 9. 16 clean sheets in that run as well, including a 2nd leg 0-0 away at Bayern which saw us knock them out of the RO16. 

I may do a bit more of a detailed write up of how the tactic performs in game when I reach the end of the season, if anyone is interested.

Edited February 26, 2023 by ElJefe4

[jc577]

Really enjoying this mate, inspiring me to go 442 which has always been a favourite of mine on FM! 

[JoOSTAR]

15 hours ago, ElJefe4 said:

In order to really replicate a compact mid block 442, both wide midfielders have the PI to Mark Position on ML and MR respectively. I also use PIs such as never triggering a press on opposition goalkeepers and centre backs. As a result we often invite the ball into midfield or out wide. This helps us to draw opposition out slightly, giving us more space to counter into once we do win the ball back.

I guess you mean OI's in the second sentence?

Can you list all of your Player Instructions as well?

 

Thanks!

[ElJefe4]

On 25/02/2023 at 15:53, JoOSTAR said:

I guess you mean OI's in the second sentence?

Can you list all of your Player Instructions as well?

 

Thanks!

Yeah, OIs. Edited now, good spot.

Player Instructions are as follows, the ones in bold I'd consider essential, the others less so:

• Ugarte: Hold Position, Take Fewer Risks, Shoot Less Often - I want him to be the more defensive of the 2 central midfielders. I could achieve this by changing his duty from Support to Defend, but he'd then drop too deep out of possession and we'd lose the flat 4 across the midfield. Take Fewer Risks as I'd rather he played simple passes to the players that surround him (Hernandez, Diaz and Tonali). Shoot Less Often as he has the Shoots From Distance trait but only has 10 Long Shots, I'm training him to lose this trait.
• Diaz: Roam From Position, Sit Narrower, Dribble More - I want him to tuck inside in possession and form a midfield 3. This also allows for more space for Hernandez to overlap. Dribble More to make use of his 16 Dribbling. 
• Messias: Sit Narrower - This is to get him playing a bit closer to the front 2. I first selected this when Saelemaekers was playing there as he was often too wide. It's less of an issue with Messias, maybe because he's left footed he naturally wants to go in field more often. Messias has 9 goals and 11 assists in 1,992 minutes. Saelemaekers has just 5 goals and 13 assists in 2,876 minutes. Saelemaekers is seen as a better player but is less suited to the Bale role. I'm looking for an upgrade in this position. 
• Origi: Stay Wider - Means he drifts out into the left channel like Ronaldo would often do. Helps with combining with Diaz and Hernandez.
• De Ketelaere: Hold Position - A bit undecided on this one. The logic is that I'd seen too many occasions where Origi (or Leao before he left) had drifted into the left channel and CDK had drifted into the right channel. I didn't want them to be this far apart. I also didn't like not having somebody occupying the 2 centre backs. Hold Position is an attempt to get him to stay more central. 

The last one brings me onto the wider point about striker roles in the game. I wish there was a completely customisable role that allowed us to pick any combination of Player Instructions.

Specifically with CDK, I want him to drop deeper and have runners going beyond him at times, but ideally I want him to stay in central areas. Too many of the striker roles have Move Into Channels hard-coded in my opinion. The ones that don't are:

• Pressing Forward (Defend or Support) - Not a viable option as Close Down More is pre-selected and I don't want him to do this.
• Target Forward (Support or Attack) - Not ideal as Dribble Less is pre-selected and CDK has 16 Dribbling that I want to make use of. I'd also worry that we'd start playing too direct into him, does anyone know if this would be the case?
• False Nine - This is probably the closest to a Deep Lying Forward so I may give it a try. I've never seen Benzema's role in that Madrid team as a False Nine so didn't want to use it for that reason, but it may be worth a go.

I'd like to see a role similar the Central Midfielder (Support) for which every single Player Instruction can be customised. 

[ElJefe4]

442 Mid Block and Counter:

1. Limited pressure on the centre backs.
2. Invite the ball into midfield.
3. Trigger a press.
4. Force a turnover.
5. Attack with speed. 

On this occasion, Giroud (DLF) and Diaz (AP) offer for the ball to feet while Origi (CF) and Messias (IW) look to run in behind. 

Our wingers combine with Diaz slipping a lovely through ball into Messias' path and the Brazilian converts effortlessly. 

 

The first time was so nice, we had to do it twice:

This time it is Messias who makes the interception and executes a defence splitting through ball to Giroud.

Edited March 2, 2023 by ElJefe4

[K94]

Don't have much to contribute, just wanted to say I found extremely enjoyable going through this thread and reading the tweaks you made to slightly adjust player roles and positions to fit the shape you had in mind. Definitely looking to implement some sort of 4-4-2 in my save after this read

[bababooey]

On 24/02/2023 at 19:10, ElJefe4 said:

Unfortunately the MCL Mezzala experiment ultimately failed. Despite the PIs, it wasn't possible to safely defend our left hand side.

I've instead changed to an asymmetrical formation:

Few notes on this shape that I wanted to make. More for my own benefit than thinking anyone is following the tactical direction I'm taking 

Despite Diaz being nominally positioned higher than Messias, we are still able to achieve the desired 433 shape in possession with Diaz joining the midfield and Messias pushing higher.

I'd previously struggled to see my left midfielder tucking inside to form a 3. He was pretty much always staying too high and wide. I've found that not having a player positioned directly inside him seems to encourage him to move infield more often.

In order to really replicate a compact mid block 442, both wide midfielders have the PI to Mark Position on ML and MR respectively. I also use OIs such as never triggering a press on opposition goalkeepers and centre backs. As a result we often invite the ball into midfield or out wide. This helps us to draw opposition out slightly, giving us more space to counter into once we do win the ball back.

The results so far have been positive. Room for improvement of course, I'd never profess to being the best tactician around, but I've been really pleased with our results. For the calendar year 2023 we are currently on P22, W16, D5, L1, GF 40, GA 9. 16 clean sheets in that run as well, including a 2nd leg 0-0 away at Bayern which saw us knock them out of the RO16. 

I may do a bit more of a detailed write up of how the tactic performs in game when I reach the end of the season, if anyone is interested.

 

I've enjoyed the hell out of this thread.  I think this is a fantastic example of how tactics work in this game. It's not always about what you expect to happen, but rather, how to tweak an idea until it mirrors closely what you're trying to achieve.

Most people (myself included) would scoff at not using at least 1 defend duty in central or defensive midfield. "How will you cover the middle, oh my god!"  But you've shown exactly why that line of thinking is sort of low resolution.

Instead, you've protected the middle as a result of the tactical approach as a whole.

I hope to see more people posting midblock focused tactics because it's clearly less common and in vogue than the high press (and to a lesser extent, the low block).

[ElJefe4]

On 09/03/2023 at 13:19, K94 said:

Don't have much to contribute, just wanted to say I found extremely enjoyable going through this thread and reading the tweaks you made to slightly adjust player roles and positions to fit the shape you had in mind. Definitely looking to implement some sort of 4-4-2 in my save after this read

Hope you find some of it useful, let me know how you get on with your attempt. I'm always interested to see different interpretations/implementations of certain systems. 

On 15/03/2023 at 17:33, bababooey said:

 

I've enjoyed the hell out of this thread.  I think this is a fantastic example of how tactics work in this game. It's not always about what you expect to happen, but rather, how to tweak an idea until it mirrors closely what you're trying to achieve.

Most people (myself included) would scoff at not using at least 1 defend duty in central or defensive midfield. "How will you cover the middle, oh my god!"  But you've shown exactly why that line of thinking is sort of low resolution.

Instead, you've protected the middle as a result of the tactical approach as a whole.

I hope to see more people posting midblock focused tactics because it's clearly less common and in vogue than the high press (and to a lesser extent, the low block).

Thank you for the kind words. I've taken a bit of a break recently but will look to finish my current season soon and may do another post with an update. I'll also look to include whatever I identify as limitations to see if anyone has any ideas on how they can be improved. 

[andre62]

@ElJefe4 can you share the tactic for give a try please?

thanks

[jc577]

Hey @ElJefe4 any update on this? Such a good read, I’m ready for more 

[ceefax the cat]

Are there features of the new ME that make this easier? We know you can now have the back line shuffle across and move between a 3 and a 4, but will the midfield line do the same?

[Kreeki]

On 16/03/2023 at 22:56, ElJefe4 said:

Hope you find some of it useful, let me know how you get on with your attempt. I'm always interested to see different interpretations/implementations of certain systems. 

Thank you for the kind words. I've taken a bit of a break recently but will look to finish my current season soon and may do another post with an update. I'll also look to include whatever I identify as limitations to see if anyone has any ideas on how they can be improved. 

Taken inspiration from this for my save with Spartans in FM24 in bottom division of Scotland.

Can confirm it plays some super satisfying football and very consistent possession play. I'm leaking a few too many goals at the back but that might be my tweaks with the team instructions in midfield, still trying to address that

I tend to score a lot and manage a good amount of comebacks without changing much other than the mentality and shouting at my team.

Few tweaks I made based on my team:

Added press to DMs + CMs

Not sure how impactful the CM/DM press is; might actually be causing me issues.

 

IW > W and cut inside with ball PI:

Was finding the IW was just floating around a bit too much rather than pushing the play. 

AP > IF (Situationally)

Only have one player suitable for this role really my next best is a good IF so if my AP is tired/injured I use this, seems to work just as well and scores a fair bit too.

CF > TF:

Got some big strong blokes at my team so it made more sense for me

DLF > Poacher

Have a pretty solid poacher to match up with my TF

 

Thanks for this and the post, be keen to hear how you're getting on, i'm sat top of the league at the moment!

Edited November 8, 2023 by Kreeki